Will +4 and Bane suffice to penetrate DR / epic?

[Lincoln Hills]

The odds that I'll be dropping an item of this power in my campaign anytime soon are non-existent, but I thought I'd seek counsel for eventual high-level play:

The 'bane' quality allows a weapon to function as if it were +2 higher than it actually is (in addition to the bonus damage dice). Let's say you encounter - oh, let's say an Aberration with DR 15/epic. Is your aberration-bane glaive +4 going to qualify to bypass DR?

[j b 200]

yes.

[Malachi Silverclaw]

If the Bane quality raises the enhancement bonus to +6 or higher, then the weapon will bypass DR/epic.

[Claxon]

James Jacobs wrote:

Nawtyit wrote:

Thank you for being so helpful in the past. I have another popular question for you.

Would a +4 or +5 bane weapon, becoming +6 or +7, bypass DR/Epic against a creature it was bane to?
(+4 magical beast bane weapon bypasses Tarrasque’s DR 15/Epic, for example)

Nope.

No.

In 3.5 a +6 bypassed DR Epic because it said so in the rules. That rule does not exist in Pathfinder, and per James Jacob a +6 or better weapon doesn't bypass DR Epic. You DM may allow it, and considering there is no other way to bypass it it shuold be considered as a house rule. Of course, your DM may also want to preserve the lethality of creatures that possess DR Epic and still disallow it.

[Rocky Williams 530]

A few very powerful monsters are vulnerable only to epic weapons—that is, magic weapons with at least a +6 enhancement bonus. Such creatures' natural weapons are also treated as epic weapons for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction.

from the PRD. Unless there was a faq about it, +6 does overcome DR/Epic.

[Terronus]

I thought the thread with the response from JJ went on to say bane and holy/unholy cap at +5 enhancement? I'm on my mobile device at the moment and can't check for certain, but someone might be able to clarify!

[Artanthos]

Bane and Furious can raise a weapons effective enhancement above +5.

[Claxon]

Hrmmmm.....well these two things are clearly at odds with one another.

I think the answer is, even though Furious or Bane can increase the effective enhancement bonus to above +5, since it is not an actual +6 weapon it doesn't bypass DR Epic. I mean there is clearly a developer response where he says explicitly that it doesn't work, so it doesn't work.

Edit: Based on some other things I read it boils down to actual vs effective. Only a weapon with an actual enhancement of +6 bypasses DR Epic, a +4 furious or bane weapon does not have an actual +6 enhancement so it does not work. Currently, there is on way to obtain an actual +6 enhancement on any weapons.

[Charender]

Claxon wrote:

Hrmmmm.....well these two things are clearly at odds with one another.

I think the answer is, even though Furious or Bane can increase the effective enhancement bonus to above +5, since it is not an actual +6 weapon it doesn't bypass DR Epic. I mean there is clearly a developer response where he says explicitly that it doesn't work, so it doesn't work.

So does a +3 demon bane weapon penetrate a demon's 15/evil DR?

[Selgard]

Until its in the errata or FAQ they can say whatever they want.

As it stands currently, by RAW, a +4 weapon with bane wielded against the bane target is +6 and explicitly bypasses Epic damage reduction.

With all due respect to Mr. JJ even he says in his thread not to use his posts as RAW/RAI- but rather as to just how he runs his games.

-S

[Majuba]

There is nothing more iconic than needing, for example, a sword forged to slay dragons (dragon-bane) to harm a creature. +4, Bane = +6. +6 bypasses Epic. Very simple. The only language dealing with "non-actual enhancement bonuses" is references in the the greater magic weapon spell, and only there.

Charender wrote:

So does a +3 demon bane weapon penetrate a demon's 15/evil DR?

Yes.

[Artanthos]

FAQ

The question was answered a while ago.

Enhancements such as bane and furious can raise a weapon above +5.

[Lincoln Hills]

Hunh. I thought I just wasn't seeing an entry under DR/epic or the Bane quality, but apparently opinions really do differ.

I think I stand with Majuba, at least until clarification. It makes the Bane benefit (ordinarily considered a poor second to Holy and its relatives) a little more desirable, and it's not like it will matter in 99.9% of all fights.

Of course, I may feel differently after some PC assassin uses a single fey-bane bolt +4 to one-shot the Thrasfyr or something.

[Terronus]

Artanthos wrote:

FAQ

The question was answered a while ago.

Enhancements such as bane and furious can raise a weapon above +5.

Well I was indeed wrong! That FAQ was made after the last time I had checked for a ruling on it and will be a nice boon for my players... Thanks Artanthos!

[Terronus]

Hmmm, is the Axe of the Dwarvish Lords an epic weapon? Unless I'm mistaken there as well, it looks like it is a solid +6...

[Lincoln Hills]

Yeah, there have been a few - a very, very few - +6 weapons. The Axe of the Dwarvish Lords is one, and the Sword of Kas is another. The Sword hasn't appeared since 2nd Edition, though - coincidentally about the same time that its most famous victim, Vecna, was promoted from 'long-dead lich' to 'brand-new god'.

And then, of course, there was the Epic Level Handbook, which revealed that actually there were tons and tons of +7, +9 and +silly weapons all along - but they were just too awesome for your lowly 20th-level characters to ever dream of picking them up, so there!

(Sorry, sorry. I wasn't a fan.)

[Zahir ibn Mahmoud ibn Jothan]

Lincoln Hills wrote:

It makes the Bane benefit (ordinarily considered a poor second to Holy and its relatives) a little more desirable

How is Bane (a +1 enhancement) considered a poor second to Holy (a +2 enhancement)?

In many campaigns where there is a cohesive storyline, there will be a recurring enemy type (giants, undead, dragons, goblinoids, fey, etc). In those campaigns, a Bane weapon is a great choice, for half the "cost" and even more benefit than Holy and the like. And when in doubt, you can't go wrong with Human-Bane.

And there is nothing stopping a PC from getting Holy on top of Bane.

My Paladin in Runelords has a scimitar +1, Bane (I won't give any spoilers as to what he is Baning). He regularly uses his Divine Bond ability to drop Holy onto the weapon. This makes it a +3 weapon, with 4d6 extra damage against Evil versions of the Bane'd creature. Stack that on top of Smiting when they are evil, and it's a great combo.