Goblin Squad Member
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cmastah: Did you read this particular Goblin Works Blog? It primarily deals with gear on death, looting and the threading ability for characters to safe-guard a choice of items on them.
Not sure exactly what class of item is looted, but probably something that makes sense on your character equipmen slots eg rings, belts, weapons -> any of.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I shouldn't think it's needed: Only x1 random item will be lootable for the victor on either side of a combat. It's a small inducement for winning at combat without snowballing into an economically profitable activity (ie ganking) - all other gear not-threaded and not x1 randomly looted is destroyed anyway.
**EDIT**
Dang, I was pretty certain that was the take-home, Dario, I hope my memory is not failing me... goes off diggin'...
When a player is killed by another player, the killer (and his group if he is in one) has looting rights to that player's husk; if anyone else loots it, they get the Thief tag and become a more desirable PvP target. When looting a husk, it takes six seconds to open up a list of the target's lootable equipment, and the looter can be interrupted during this time. This is to ensure that players do not do "run-by" lootings, and the dead character's allies can keep the husk safe from looting if they pay attention. The looting character can take a portion of the unequipped items in the victim's inventory, plus equipped items that are not threaded; whatever unthreaded items the killer does not make off with are destroyed.
Gah. Looks like I'm remembering the old looting that was discussed. The above seems to be the latest info on this subject. Scrap the above.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I shouldn't think it's needed: Only x1 random item will be lootable for the victor on either side of a combat. It's a small inducement for winning at combat without snowballing into an economically profitable activity (ie ganking) - all other gear not-threaded and not x1 randomly looted is destroyed anyway.
Has this been confirmed somewhere? All I've seen is "some portion" not one item, nor have I seen that it will be random.
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Goblin Squad Member
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As far as chucking your loot to keep them from getting it, you might be able to dump an item or two. I suppose it depends on how far into the fight you get before you figure out it's hopeless, since, I'm assuming, you don't want to chuck your stuff and then win the fight. Best case scenario is that you know what they're after and burn it. They'll still get something, but not what they wanted.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Thanks, I read the section on threading but I still couldn't find whether or not you could destroy your own gear + inventory (minus the threaded equipment) shortly before dying to leave nothing behind for the scavengers.
I am not aware of any official information about how long it will take to destroy your gear, or whether you'll be able to do that during combat.
There is this about Assassins' Masks:
Upgraded masks give you the option to have your husk automatically destroy itself on death, removing all evidence of your existence and keeping your killers from getting your stuff.
Given that there's a specific game mechanic to allow Assassins to automatically destroy all their gear when they die, I don't think there should be a simple way for just anyone to do this. It seems to me that you probably shouldn't be able to easily destroy your gear during combat. However, I do think there should be options to easily destroy certain types of gear in certain types of containers, as long as there's a cost to preparing for that necessity.
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Goblinworks Game Designer
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Good question. Given that we don't want you fiddling with your inventory in combat anyway (you can't switch gear in combat except between weapon sets or use any consumables you haven't assigned to a consumables slot), we probably won't let you trash items out of your inventory during combat either. This might have the side-effect of making bandits choosier about what they take from you, because they don't want to risk being slowed down by being overly encumbered if retribution is right on their heels.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@AvenaOats,
There is nothing wrong with ganking, it is a legitimate combat tactic.
I don't know of any military planners, that plan for a fair fight, do you?
Bandits will use superior numbers, surprise, and various tactics to attempt to produce swift and easy take downs of our opponents. We will loot fast, loot what is worth the most, and get the Hell out.
@ Stephen Cheney
When anyone looks into the inventory of a husk, how will it be organized?
* Will we have settings to sort the inventory by category? (ie equipped; threaded; unthreaded; inventory; by value; by weight; etc....)
It makes it seem that I will be vulnerable while trying to loot husks, which I don't mind really. But, what I will have to do is make sure that when we participate in banditry, we do it in larger numbers than some of our victims will like very much.
I'm hoping that we don't hear too much fuss over 5:1 odds if that is the force we put together.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@ Stephen Cheney
When anyone looks into the inventory of a husk, how will it be organized?
* Will we have settings to sort the inventory by category? (ie equipped; threaded; unthreaded; inventory; by value; by weight; etc....)
There was a discussion of this in Quick questions / thoughts where Ryan and Stephen clarified this. When a player character is killed, a random selection of his unthreaded gear will be "lootable". This "lootable" gear will be displayed in a list to the looter. They're presenting a looter a list instead of automatically filling his inventory because the looter might not want to take everything if it would encumber him.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@ Nihimon,
Yes, I understood that much. What I was asking if we could use our own filter to sort the inventory items out, based on our own looting agenda.
If the items appear in a random order, that would mean I would have to sift through the list and identify the valuables items from the crap. That takes precious seconds off the clock. Meanwhile, the victim is on TS/Vent calling in the retaliation crew.
This is why I'm a big proponent of ganking with a bare minimum of 3:1 and preferably 5:1 numerical advantage. I don't mind a challenge if it happens, but I', not in the business of sitting around and waiting for it either.
SAD first, and Smash and Grab if option #1 fails.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@ Nihimon,
Yes, I understood that much. What I was asking if we could use our own filter to sort the inventory items out, based on our own looting agenda.
If the items appear in a random order, that would mean I would have to sift through the list and identify the valuables items from the crap. That takes precious seconds off the clock. Meanwhile, the victim is on TS/Vent calling in the retaliation crew.
This is why I'm a big proponent of ganking with a bare minimum of 3:1 and preferably 5:1 numerical advantage. I don't mind a challenge if it happens, but I', not in the business of sitting around and waiting for it either.
SAD first, and Smash and Grab if option #1 fails.
It's the difference between grabbing the whole pack off his back, or rooting through it and looking everything over first. One takes less time, but risks encumbrance, the other is more selective, but leaves you on scene longer. Sounds like a fair tradeoff for a killer to have to decide on. Besides, it's not like you have to go through his whole inventory. You'll only see the lootable items, which are a subset of the unthreaded items, which are a subset of the total items.
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Goblinworks Game Designer
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When anyone looks into the inventory of a husk, how will it be organized?
* Will we have settings to sort the inventory by category? (ie equipped; threaded; unthreaded; inventory; by value; by weight; etc....)
It makes it seem that I will be vulnerable while trying to loot husks, which I don't mind really. But, what I will have to do is make sure that when we participate in banditry, we do it in larger numbers than some of our victims will like very much.
I'm hoping that we don't hear too much fuss over 5:1 odds if that is the force we put together.
We haven't gotten far enough on UI development to say for sure yet. We'll keep your concerns in mind.
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Goblin Squad Member
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We haven't gotten far enough on UI development to say for sure yet. We'll keep your concerns in mind.When anyone looks into the inventory of a husk, how will it be organized?
* Will we have settings to sort the inventory by category? (ie equipped; threaded; unthreaded; inventory; by value; by weight; etc....)
It makes it seem that I will be vulnerable while trying to loot husks, which I don't mind really. But, what I will have to do is make sure that when we participate in banditry, we do it in larger numbers than some of our victims will like very much.
I'm hoping that we don't hear too much fuss over 5:1 odds if that is the force we put together.
I appreciate your response, and thank you for keeping our (bandits) concerns in mind.
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Goblin Squad Member
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It's the difference between grabbing the whole pack off his back, or rooting through it and looking everything over first. One takes less time, but risks encumbrance, the other is more selective, but leaves you on scene longer. Sounds like a fair tradeoff for a killer to have to decide on.
Speed vs. thoroughness. A fast grab would likely miss things that a thorough search might find; if you just grab the pack and purse you might miss the coins sewn into the lining of the deader's vest, etc. When looting, can you know if you've found everything or if you should keep looking?
A search window that slowly showed items as they were "found", with maybe half of the potential items being shown at first, then new loot (if any) being discovered at random intervals (like 1-10s per item) might be pretty cool.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I like the idea of a timer that reveals more items over a search time, maybe displayed by a timer bar with tick marks for each item. This kind of represents actually having to search your victim, and maybe the more valuable goods were well hidden and took you a little longer to find. As the timer moves along you can mouse over and observe each item and decide if you want to snatch it up or pass and keep waiting. You could take everything (available), nothing or select items this way.
Think of it like a traveler stitching his valuable gems or coins into the hem of his clothes. Of course then there could be a search skill that would reduce the time taken to reveal additional items of greater value.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I like the idea of having skills that allow someone to "sort" through the inventory is a more efficient way. I also would like the counter to that, allowing the victim a skill to "conceal" valuables as well.
Yes I realize that much of this is pie in the sky, but that is what we players often do on these boards.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I am not in favor of "extra" timers. I think that they would not only complicate things for bandits but also all PVP looters. It seems to me that it would just end up being frustrating.
A search skill that increased the number of items displayed vs. a conceal skill to reduce them would be better and simpler, IMO.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I am not in favor of "extra" timers. I think that they would not only complicate things for bandits but also all PVP looters. It seems to me that it would just end up being frustrating.
A search skill that increased the number of items displayed vs. a conceal skill to reduce them would be better and simpler, IMO.
They've already announced that it will take several seconds to loot a body before the window pops up. Ace's suggestions sounds more like having items pop into the window during the course of that period, rather than all at the end. It's not a terrible system, but I wouldn't have skills modifying it. I would just have items pop up evenly distributed over the time, with the items of the highest encumbrance appearing first. Larger items are easier to spot.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Maybe I'm missing something, I haven't been as active and as closely following as I was in the past, but was there ever a declaration by GW that what is looted is "chosen", last I had heard it was "a random selection" taken from the players "unthreaded" items. IE even if you only want 1 small item, and said item is unthreaded. It is still a random as to whether or not you will happen to get that item, vs anything else unthreaded in the victims inventory.
At which point, I suppose the conceal would lower the odds of something from going there.
Admitted it would be a tad difficult to explain in lore how you are concealing something, and I don't see it being that valuble of a skill to train. (namely in that it does nothing for you, I can see the using time when you wouldn't do anything but die, but to burn training time on a skill that has no impact on your personal gains and losses seems what I would consider a wasteful use of training time for spite.).
@Onishi
Both Stephen Cheney and Ryan Dancey have confirmed that the lootable items would be a random selected portion of the non threaded items in this thread
http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2pt0e?Quick-questions-thoughts
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Goblin Squad Member
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Admitted it would be a tad difficult to explain in lore how you are concealing something, and I don't see it being that valuble of a skill to train. (namely in that it does nothing for you, I can see the using time when you wouldn't do anything but die, but to burn training time on a skill that has no impact on your personal gains and losses seems what I would consider a wasteful use of training time for spite.).
Taking a combination of the suggestions above:
- Say the basic (6 second) search turns up half of the possible loot, and the additional items being revealed the longer the window is kept open. Some characters might be pretty efficient in their searches and items are revealed more quickly.
- Larger/bulkier items are front-loaded in the queue; they will be obvious and found without much effort. Smaller items might be evenly distributed in the queue. Items which the character has concealed (boot sheath, inner money belt, extra pockets in lining of underclothes) might tend to be later in the queue, but not always. Such items should *not* be readily accessible in combat though.
Then a looter has to make the decision how long he continues to search. Also, the deader's friends could interrupt the search. If that resulted in some valuables not being looted or lost, then the dead guy who recovers his only-partially looted body might think the skill was worthwhile.
Now, I'm not sure it needs to be that complex, but it adds urgency and decisions about time to the looters act, and also gives the deader's friends reason to stick around. If the looting can continue past 6 seconds *they* don't know how much they might save by going back into the fight.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I am in favor of the "timer for items to show up" idea as it makes it seam a bit more realistic. (as you find things it is added to the window for you to loot) however, if this was adopted, then do away with the 6 sec loot activation. Skills like search vs stealth would adjust these timers.
The other option, or maybe in addition depending on how it is done in game, is that I would prefer a system where all "found" items be shown when looting a body, except the threaded ones, but only allow a certain number to be looted, that way people can pick their loot, instead of getting a random piece. I can see people transporting 1 item from place to place with a bunch of trash in their bags so it they die the chance the 1 item is lootable is slim, assuming they don't thread it for some reason.
This will allow for people to be hunted for specific items. If I watched you mine a node of (insert random valuable ore) and I kill you for that ore, if it doesn't show up in the "lootable" items, then I killed you for nothing. Id rather see everything and "pick 5" or something, then only see 5 random pieces of loot.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@cmastah And such an item loss mechanic can mean that tracking item damage isn't needed.
Which brings up a thought... If getting into a suit of mail requires action by the wearer, just how difficult is it to recover a mail shirt from a dead guy? I don't doubt there's a video of it somewhere on the internet, but... (/shudder).
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Goblin Squad Member
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@cmastah And such an item loss mechanic can mean that tracking item damage isn't needed.
Which brings up a thought... If getting into a suit of mail requires action by the wearer, just how difficult is it to recover a mail shirt from a dead guy? I don't doubt there's a video of it somewhere on the internet, but... (/shudder).
LOL. I always had to argue with the players in TT games about that. It only makes sense. They wanted "no hassles" in looting things like full plate mail while their buffs were running down. Good times indeed. =P
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Goblin Squad Member
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I am in favor of the "timer for items to show up" idea as it makes it seam a bit more realistic. (as you find things it is added to the window for you to loot) however, if this was adopted, then do away with the 6 sec loot activation. Skills like search vs stealth would adjust these timers.
The other option, or maybe in addition depending on how it is done in game, is that I would prefer a system where all "found" items be shown when looting a body, except the threaded ones, but only allow a certain number to be looted, that way people can pick their loot, instead of getting a random piece. I can see people transporting 1 item from place to place with a bunch of trash in their bags so it they die the chance the 1 item is lootable is slim, assuming they don't thread it for some reason.
This will allow for people to be hunted for specific items. If I watched you mine a node of (insert random valuable ore) and I kill you for that ore, if it doesn't show up in the "lootable" items, then I killed you for nothing. Id rather see everything and "pick 5" or something, then only see 5 random pieces of loot.
This, on all points!
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Goblin Squad Member
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The other option, or maybe in addition depending on how it is done in game, is that I would prefer a system where all "found" items be shown when looting a body, except the threaded ones, but only allow a certain number to be looted, that way people can pick their loot, instead of getting a random piece. I can see people transporting 1 item from place to place with a bunch of trash in their bags so it they die the chance the 1 item is lootable is slim, assuming they don't thread it for some reason.
This will allow for people to be hunted for specific items. If I watched you mine a node of (insert random valuable ore) and I kill you for that ore, if it doesn't show up in the "lootable" items, then I killed you for nothing. Id rather see everything and "pick 5" or something, then only see 5 random pieces of loot.
It's been explained a couple times why this is not a desirable situation. It significantly undermines the value of death and looting as a sink.
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Goblin Squad Member
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It's been explained a couple times why this is not a desirable situation.
I think there are a number of people who feel the "random loot" aspect is lacking. If we can Crowdforge a new solution that retains the important properties of the current one, then I think we'll all be better off.
Perhaps something as simple as limiting how many "points" of gear he can loot, with T1 gear valued at 1 point per item, T2 gear at 3 points per item, and T3 gear at 5 points per item, then only allowing 5 points of gear to be looted.
Or perhaps a mechanic which makes it simply take longer to loot higher tier gear.
@Nihimon
While I agree there is no harm in trying to crowdforge when doing so we shouldn't lose sight of what the main point of the mechanic is.
The point is not to transfer goods from one player to another but to remove items totally from the server. Providing a pvp incentive via allowing the killer to keep some loot is a by product of this not the main aim.
A point to consider as well when crowd forging this...if you provide a system where the tendency will be to take less but higher level loot how will this affect the market for high level crafted goods that are no longer being destroyed as often
@Nihimon
I should also point out on this crowd forging I have a vested interest as I intend to be mainly a merchant and crafter. While I understand why bandits like Bluddwolf wish to be able to choose the choice items to loot from a crafter merchant point of view I will have more opportunities to sell this high end product if it is preserved less.
The ideal for me as a crafter in a loot system therefore is one in which the percentage of goods dropped is done by value and they select what is lootable by working from lowest value goods upwards :)
Just thought I would throw an alternate view of the looting system in from the crafter perspective
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Goblin Squad Member
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It's been explained a couple times why this is not a desirable situation.I think there are a number of people who feel the "random loot" aspect is lacking. If we can Crowdforge a new solution that retains the important properties of the current one, then I think we'll all be better off.
I agree, which is why I said "why this particular solution is not desirable", instead of "why we'll be using the current solution". =P
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Goblin Squad Member
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@ZenPagan, you're right. I kind of glossed over it, but your concerns are exactly what I had in mind when I said "a new solution that retains the important properties of the current one". My suggestions were generally attempting to find a more palatable way to incentivize looters to leave higher tier gear on the husk.
Perhaps a more direct incentive is called for.
One common consideration when looting a player character husk will be time and encumbrance. Perhaps there should be a very quick option to immediately convert the unlooted & unthreaded items to Coin. Mundane items would only grant a small portion of their value, but T3 gear might convert to a significant amount of Coin, which has no encumbrance. It seems to me that this would create a very strong incentive for players to leave T3 gear on husks, although it does create a challenge in properly valuing the gear.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I agree, which is why I said "why this particular solution is not desirable", instead of "why we'll be using the current solution". =P
Not to get too technical, but you didn't actually say what you just quoted yourself as saying. You said "this is not a desirable situation", which is a much broader statement.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@ZenPagan, you're right. I kind of glossed over it, but your concerns are exactly what I had in mind when I said "a new solution that retains the important properties of the current one". My suggestions were generally attempting to find a more palatable way to incentivize looters to leave higher tier gear on the husk.
Perhaps a more direct incentive is called for.
One common consideration when looting a player character husk will be time and encumbrance. Perhaps there should be a very quick option to immediately convert the unlooted & unthreaded items to Coin. Mundane items would only grant a small portion of their value, but T3 gear might convert to a significant amount of Coin, which has no encumbrance. It seems to me that this would create a very strong incentive for players to leave T3 gear on husks, although it does create a challenge in properly valuing the gear.
I would be really strongly against this. I think making PVP a coin faucet (as opposed to a way to move existing coin around) is a mistake. Valuation aside, this also removes the requirement for killers to find a way to fence their stolen goods. Also, it creates a perverse incentive to kill someone and loot nothing, because you'll get more coin.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I agree, which is why I said "why this particular solution is not desirable", instead of "why we'll be using the current solution". =PNot to get too technical, but you didn't actually say what you just quoted yourself as saying. You said "this is not a desirable situation", which is a much broader statement.
I said "this" while quoting a proposed solution. Though I can understand confusion, and will attempt to be more clear in the future.