Lets say I go into a tavern. None of the NPCs are hostile toward me, but its a small town and people might recognize an new addition to the tavern. What kind of roll should I roll if I wanted to go to a corner of the tavern and go unnoticed? Not like I want to be invisible or stealthy, but that if anyone glanced at me they would think nothing of me.
Would it be stealth? (since I want to go unnoticed)
Deception? (since I'm making myself out to look unimportant)
Disguise? (since I'm "disguising" myself to look like a part of the crowd)
And then what would DC checks be like in that situation
Yeah they are the same thing, got my words mixed up cause I'm used to playing another RP where they use deception xD Ok cool, thx guys!
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I tend to go by the "any applicable skill will work" rule of thumb, as it frustrates players to no end when you say "no, if you didn't take this particular skill, you're hosed."
If you can come up with a good story as to why the Climb skill will let you pick up girls or why Knowledge (arcana) will set you steal a horse, I will let you get away with it. Frankly, that encourages creativity and makes the game better for everyone, since there's more role playing....
Based on that, any of the three would work. I'd have more difficulties with Disguise, though (and therefore set the task DC higher), because Disguise specifically focuses on changing your appearance (that's what the rules say), and you're not really changing your appearance, are you? And, frankly, changing your appearance wouldn't really keep you from attracting attention, since the whole point is that anyone of whatever appearance would attract attention unless you disguised yourself as a specific person that they know.
For the Disguise skill to remotely serve its intended function, it needs to encompass more than just physical appearance. It needs to encompass nonverbal behavior, mannerisms, etc. The skill IS explicitly used to impersonate another individual.
But impersonating a specific other individual is not needed here. Nor, for that matter, is changing ones mannerisms, et cetera.
Changing one's appearance IS actually what is needed, moreover, unless the individual is directly interacting with others. Choosing appropriate clothing, features, etc to be seemingly part of the crowd.
But it's not an anonymous, faceless crowd. I'd certainly accept, for example, disguising yourself to look like "a peasant" instead of "an adventurer" if you wished to avoid being noticed in a large crowd; if you want to wander a crowded market day crowd of mostly strangers, all you have to do is look like another typical stranger.
But there's no one you can try to look like in the instance the OP described; it's a small tavern in a small town, everyone in the tavern knows everyone else, and strangers stand out like a white cat sitting on a pile of coal. Disguising yourself as a white dog sitting on a pile of coal wouldn't make you stand out any less. Unless you're specifically impersonating Snug the Joiner, you will still look like someone who isn't part of the in-group, and therefore someone worthy of notice. (And disguising yourself as Snug will carry its own risks, especially if Snug himself is already sitting in the tavern.)
The key question that I would ask -- that I do ask, in fact -- is: "All right, the Disguise skill lets you change your appearance. What does your new appearance look like?" As far as I'm concerned, that's almost a trick question, because no matter what answer you give, you will still look like a person who's not part of the regular crowd in this particular tavern. You can't disguise yourself to look like "part of the crowd," because, to the regulars, there is no "crowd" any more than there's a "crowd" at a regular gaming group of eight people that meet every Tuesday night.
"Hey, everyone, I brought Diet Coke tonight, 'cause it was on sale. Is everyone here? Let's see, we've got.... Liz, and Mike, and other Mike, and Chris, and Tony, and Akbar, and... who's this unassuming person at the table next to Akbar? And where's Ian?"
If its a small town and people are suspicious and on the lookout for anyone new, then I'd say you're kinda hosed. They're going to notice you're from out of town unless you look like somebody they know and impersonate them. Go to some country town of 1000 people and everybody knows everybody and all their business too.
If you want to remain unnoticed in the town I would suggest you find some nice farmers hay loft and get some shuteye. Otherwise, people are going to notice you don't belong.
I'd be inclined to go with sleight of hand, since that skill is about performing actions without being noticed. However, I'd totally agree with Orfamay that "any applicable skill" would work. Disguise and Bluff would probably be okay with me, but stealth probably not. Stealth is about not being seen at all, which is considerably different from just being inconspicious.
If its a small town and people are suspicious and on the lookout for anyone new, then I'd say you're kinda hosed. They're going to notice you're from out of town unless you look like somebody they know and impersonate them.
Well, that's where Stealth could come in. They won't notice you're from out of town if they don't notice you at all. You could try Diplomacy or Bluff to adjust everyone's attitude to friendly -- they will notice you don't belong, but not care any more, because you're such a fun person. Intimidate could work for the short-term; they'll be too scared to hassle you, although that will hardly to keep them from noticing you. If you're creative, I suspect you could find an argument that a Perform check could get you out of trouble -- maybe you look so obviously and theatrically like an outsider that they think you're really Snug the joiner on his way to a Hallowe'en party.
But that's also the kind of argument I'd expect you to make for how Disguise would work. And also why the DC would be higher for Disguise than for Stealth, Diplomacy, or Bluff.
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As a GM, I would let you use any of Stealth/Bluff/Diplomacy/Intimidate. You aren't actually trying to change any reactions, or but instead are using body language to communicate "don't bother me" (bluff/dip/intimidate) or are using your knowledge of stealth to blend in with the crowd and try to avoid notice (stealth). If you are trying to hide a weapon, that's straight up sleight of hand.
Disguise doesn't apply because you aren't trying to change your appearance, you are just trying to blend in. Unless you were specifically trying to impersonate a local who was not there, then even if your disguise check was successful, you would still be a stranger to them.
I agree with the 'any of those would probably work' suggestion, though my first call would be Bluff, as you're attempting to fool people into thinking you're a local.
Disguise. People see you and don't think it strange that you're there.
If its a small town and people are suspicious and on the lookout for anyone new, then I'd say you're kinda hosed. They're going to notice you're from out of town unless you look like somebody they know and impersonate them.Well, that's where Stealth could come in. They won't notice you're from out of town if they don't notice you at all. You could try Diplomacy or Bluff to adjust everyone's attitude to friendly -- they will notice you don't belong, but not care any more, because you're such a fun person. Intimidate could work for the short-term; they'll be too scared to hassle you, although that will hardly to keep them from noticing you. If you're creative, I suspect you could find an argument that a Perform check could get you out of trouble -- maybe you look so obviously and theatrically like an outsider that they think you're really Snug the joiner on his way to a Hallowe'en party.
But that's also the kind of argument I'd expect you to make for how Disguise would work. And also why the DC would be higher for Disguise than for Stealth, Diplomacy, or Bluff.
I agree with you.
Stealth will help you avoid being observed at all, so no one even notices you. Diplomacy could convince them to be friendly, intimidate just to leave you alone. A perform check and bluff my convince them you're a wandering minstrel. Disguise and bluff could theoretically convince them you were a member of the town, but at an improbably high DC. However, none of these actually allow you to go "unnoticed" except for stealth.
But if your plan is to stride into the ale house and enjoy some drinks while no one in this small town seems to notice you're an outsider, I (as a GM) would say that's just plain impossible. That's the difference between a small town and large town.
Is there any possible way to invoke Chuck Testa when they notice you?
Jokes aside, staying incognito gets dramatically more difficult the smaller the locale is. A metropolis, no one's really worried or cared about who's who. A hovel, however? Bartender's never going to have seen you before in his life.
Throw on a ring of invisibility, walk in.
There.
I still think the best way to appear incognito is to not appear at all.
Thx for all the imput, here some of what I got:
Bluff makes the least sense in terms of what it is designed to do, which as the core book says "you know how to tell a lie." and I'm not lying.
Disguise, while possible, is not the best way to do it because either its too hard (disguising as a townsperson) or only moderately helpful (disguise as someone either moderately well-known: farmer from next town over or easy to look over: traveling salesmen).
Stealth would be the best, but it doesn't quite fit the core book's description. The definition tends to prefer to avoiding detection, not avoiding notice, so its kinda stretch considering I'm not "hiding", so much as "hiding in plain sight".
Perform/Diplomacy would work, but not for what I want to accomplish, which is being there, but not being overly noticed or talked to.
Intimidate would also work, but it has similar problems as Perform/Diplomacy (to a lesser degree).
Also the "any applicable skill will work" rule of thumb that Orfamay described would be nice :P I'll talk to my GM about it, I was just wondering if their was a definite answer that was stated in the rules which I was missing, apparently not xD
Anything I miss?
Disguise, while possible, is not the best way to do it because either its too hard (disguising as a townsperson) or only moderately helpful (disguise as someone either moderately well-known: farmer from next town over or easy to look over: traveling salesmen).
I'm guessing you're not from a small town. Orfamay Quest has it spot on with saying,
it's a small tavern in a small town, everyone in the tavern knows everyone else, and strangers stand out like a white cat sitting on a pile of coal. Disguising yourself as a white dog sitting on a pile of coal wouldn't make you stand out any less.
It seems to me that you don't want anyone to *remember* you, since you say "if anyone glanced at me they would think nothing of me."
If your character has the time, have that character observe the locals. Have the same clothes as everyone else. If most talk is about weather, talk about weather. Blend in, don't overthink it. Go in, do what you need to do, and get out of there before anyone sees you more than once.
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With a situation like this, you as the PC have 2 choices: passively accept how the NPC's will notice you, or actively change their opinion.
If you walk into the bar as if nothing is wrong, you're keeping your head down, etc, then you're passively accepting the situation. I see this as a Knowledge: Local check by the NPC. Does your reputation precede you?
It's not until you actively interact (yes, I just said that) with an NPC that you get an opposed check, like say Bluff or Diplomacy. And if you're worried about 'failing' the Knowledge Local check, then you better have a disguise.
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Actually, the most important question is 'Why is it so vitally important that you go unnoticed in a tavern in a small town?" Are you on the run from someone? Avoid civilization. Looking for someone in the town, and don't want to tip them off? Sneak around on the edge of town and observe the townsfolk. Otherwise, who cares if they notice you are a "stranger"? Go in get you food and drink, and get on with your travels.