This kinda got me:
At first I realized that a square occupied in the kingdom building rules doesn't represent that single building alone. It represents a general jumble of buildings, but also includes that specific building. UNTIL, I realized that some buildings take up multiple lots. Now that means they either wastefully are located the middle (Thus taking up both squares for some reason), or take up enough space that BOTH need to be used.
This is kinda ludacrist as a single lot is 187500 square meters. That would mean that the castles would be about 5 times bigger then the biggest castle ever made in the history of the world.
Can somebody explain this to me? I assume that each castle isn't big enough too dwarf every building ever built, ever (It would rival those built by the Azlanti!).
So what is the extra space used for? And why does the castle have to be built in the center of those four lots and not in the center of a single lot?
I know this is probably because of balance reasons, but can somebody explain a fluff reason for why this is done?
Yeah I KNOW, but why does a castle require 4 districts worth of stuff? Why can't it be 1?
Honestly, this is where the grid confuses people (and this was my original argument to SKR back in the Ultimate Campaign Thread a few weeks ago). As much of an "abstraction" as one may claim the grid is, the power of having a visual representation makes it much less abstract and will ultimately confuse most players.
In any effect, the best way to look at it is in the same light as the Building rules under the Downtime system. Under the Downtime rules, you have a minimum and a maximum size for a building. You can easily say that the castle takes up all those lots. You can also say that the castle is in the center and the rest of the space is castle grounds (royal gardens, horse races, maybe a field for gatherings and festivals, etc.). Ultimately its up to you.
ll just say that a castle requires allot of space to put together (Room to move around the materials), thus requires allot of space around it before that space can be filled in with other stuff.
Any castle would reasonably have a central keep (not very big), a walled enclosure (significantly larger) containing stables, barracks, the armoury, what have you, and some decent lines of sight as a killing ground around the enclosure (pretty darn big). There will undoubtedly be structures built against the castle wall (helping to make up some more of the 1,000 people a 4-lot building injects into the settlement), but as a purely defensive structure, the castle owner will want to be able to fire catapults (or at least have archers) at invaders.
Plus you want a no-building zone around the walls, so any would-be attackers don't have cover.
A castle in the middle of a city is no longer a castle.
Traditionally, castles would often have large grounds around it that were cleared without additional buildings (read city). Castles were often built to hold strategic position, not necessarily to protect a city. So it stands to reason that that area could be the area cleared so that enemies cannot get near the castle without being seen.
The bigger the keep, the bigger the grounds it needs.
When you construct a building on the grid, you are "zoning" it for that kind of building. A "Dance Hall" may actually be three or four separate businesses in that same area, with some housing or small shops in between. A Castle requires 4 units of space, together, for itself and the necessary support buildings, whatever they are (perhaps clear space, a moat, and a wall).
Cities wouldn't even have castles. They'd have city walls, and perhaps a citadel. A Castle is equal parts private mansion / fortress / administrative centre, and cities just have no use for such an thing.
Thanks guys. This is what I needed.
My math comes from a single square being 750 FT X 750 FT
The amount of square feet inside of that is divided by 3 to get the meters squared.
Then *4 for the amount of Squares occupied.
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Thanks guys. This is what I needed.
My math comes from a single square being 750 FT X 750 FT
The amount of square feet inside of that is divided by 3 to get the meters squared.
Then *4 for the amount of Squares occupied.
Your math is wrong, you have to divide by three to get meters first (250x250) or divide by 9 after because you've already squared it. The number is 250,000 yards squared. (Also note 3 feet = 1 yard, not 1 meter, but that's a smaller level of error).
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Yeah, castles get, and need to be, really big. Tower of London sprawls all over the place, though the actual Tower isn't that big.
Then, there's concentric defenses. Japanese castles today are not what the whole castle was. What you see today is just the naked core. There were actually acres and acres of concentric moats.
Then there's the walled outer bailey, need to martial and protect forces.
Henry the IV found that out the hard way during a Welsh revolt. He martialed his forces and advanced to a small castle on the border, White castle. He and his closest stayed in the castle, everyone else camped outside. That night, the Welsh raided and destroyed everything they couldn't steal. In the morning, the king and his forces had to return to London, war ended for the year. What they needed was a big walled bailey.
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Padua castle was maybe 70x70 meters (approximately 210x210 feet) but this is a print of the area around the castle well after it has lost any defensive utility (ca. 1700).
As you can see even 200 years after it had lost any military use the area around it was still mostly open.
And that was a city castle, placed in a corner of the city walls and controlling one of the main city gates.
My math comes from a single square being 750 FT X 750 FTThe amount of square feet inside of that is divided by 3 to get the meters squared.
Then *4 for the amount of Squares occupied.
As was pointed out, the math here is wrong.
As a comparison, Windsor Castle and its grounds occupy about 5 hectares or 50,000 square meters. Warwick Castle and its grounds occupy about twice as much, call it 100,000 square meters. In either case, you would not want to allow the rest of the city to come slap up to the castle wall if you had any intention to use it as an actual defensive structure.
So Windsor Castle itself would basically fill a single grid square. Clear a reasonable area (100m) around it, on all sides, and you're there....
OK. That makes sense now.
If I may make a point. Lets dump the castle and talk about other buildings.
I was just looking at the map of Sandpoint in the Rise of the Runelords Anni. Ed. pg 374. By using the legend on the map I got about 1500' N to S (not including the manors) and about 1000' W to E. (These are rough, rounded off approximations). So, for the sake of argument lets call 1500' by 1500', which would make the entire town a single block ie 4 lots.
There are 50 locales listed as being in Sandpoint. I'll just use the first 10. They include a cathedral, graveyard, tavern/inn, library, jeweler, dump, 2 houses, locksmith, and garrison (barracks and jail).
According to Ulti. Camp. those buildings would total 14 lots.
cathedral - 4
graveyard - 1
tavern/inn - 1 each
library - 1
shop (x2) - 1 each
dump - 1
houses (x2) - 1 (this includes multiple houses so I'll only count 1)
garrison - 2
Seems to be a big difference and that only covers 20% of what's listed as being in Sandpoint. I've yet to hear an argument that accounts for this huge discrepancy. These lot sizes do not match any of the already published maps. If each grid was 750' by 750' then you might be able to get Sandpoint to match up with the new kingdom rules, but not as it stands now.
I get that they're trying to limit the size of PC's kingdoms, but there is simply to big of a difference for me to accept.
As to Sandpoint, It's actual population is on 1240 so it should take up 5 lots. On that note it is just about right. You also have to remember that each building represents a district. If you have castle, you invariably will also have a graveyard/inn/shop. I think that each if you have the named district then people far and wide will associate your city with that facility. Not sure witch 5 Sandpoint would actually be best represented by.
I'm sorry but I must disagree. That isn't how I read the rules.
A castle takes up the entire space it's in, and while it may include a crypt, it does not have and inn or shop. You seem to have forgotten that an inn and a shop require a house each. A castle doesn't count, and there is no room for them.
If you work off the 5 lots you mentioned then according to my list Sandpoint would be a cathedral and a graveyard. Period. No Inns. No Shops. No Houses. No Markets. Nothing that would be necessary for a population to survive. Might work as a necromancer's necropolis, but not as a living town.
Each lot is not a district. A group of 36 lots is a district (hence the "District Grid" on p. 226 of Ulti. Camp.). There is also nothing in the images of the previous 2 pages that implies that these buildings are anything more than just a building, not districts as you imply.
IMO, my complaint still stands.
S45qu4tch, it has already been shown that these are NOT single buildings in most cases. In case you missed it:
Building Name: The type of buildings contained in this lot. In most cases, each lot represents numerous buildings of that type, rather than a single edifice.
The best way to think about this is that each lot is in fact a series of whatever buildings that lot is devoted to. Example: a Tannery is really a Tannery 'district' (not to be confused with the technical term for District being used in the Kingdom Building rules).
To extend that line of thought for single buildings such as the Castle, castles also included open grounds and support buildings. There is no reason to think that this is any different.
Normal castles had *within them* a smithy and whatever else was needed to support the needs of the castle. Things like the Castle's smithy or stables can be assumed to be part of the castle but not the same level as an entire Lot of Smithies or Stables.
- Gauss
RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 16, RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32
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Castle grounds took up less space than what is given to them in the kingdom building rules. The largest and oldest lived in castle, Windsor Castle, takes up 13 acres, while Malbrok Castle in Poland is on 35 acres. One square on the district grid is just less than 13 acres, with the space the castle takes up being 52 acres. This gives the castle plenty of room for expansion in the given space, allowing for a wide variety of castle types, configurations, and sizes. This means that you won’t need to expand outside of that initial area to have a large and impressive castle, as there is plenty of space available. It is doubtful that any space not used by the castle is going to be unused, as defenders, servants, and courtesans would often live within and around the castle, building their homes around the walls. As the castle expanded, their homes could be moved into the walls to keep them protected during a siege.
If you look at the history of certain castles there was a great amount of land around them that was taken up by either additional defenses, farms, orchards, gardens, or the private residences of those working in the castle. Farms, orchards, or anything that produced a product in these areas would be used to provide for and stock the castle directly. Everything around those areas would be for the surrounding or nearby city.
@Gauss
Totally agree with you, but instead of district I like to use the word neighborhood. It avoids confusion.
Is there even an official ruling on how many feet each lot is per side? It would help to know for making new maps using the ultimate campaign rules.
Nevermind, missed it in the book 750 feet typically.