Mystic Theurge in PFS

[Jiggy]

How would you do it? Skip the "I wouldn't" answers, please. Just assume for now that it's non-negotiable.

Clearly I want both classes to be full-casters so I can hit my prereqs ASAP. So for divine I have druid or cleric, and for arcane I have wizard or witch. What should I be considering in that decision? If I go cleric, what would be a good deity? (Consider both flavor and mechanics on that one, please.)

Also, what race? Since I want high INT and WIS (I'm going for an offensive/controlling caster, not a buff-bot, so I want high casting stats) I was thinking Dual-Talent Human so I can get a racial +2 to both stats. That means a pair of 18's before dump stats even enter the picture.

Note that in PFS a wizard gets Spell Focus as a bonus feat instead of Scribe Scroll; same goes for a cleric with the Rune domain. That means I could potentially have two freebie Spell Focus feats (conjuration and evocation, perhaps?) easily.

Any sort of feedback, even "Here's the questions you need to ask," is appreciated. Thanks!

[Tarantula]

Are you not accepting of sorcerers?

[Jiggy]

Given the PFS level cap (12th), I want into the PrC ASAP. Unless you can make a REALLY great argument for the sorcerer...? (Or oracle for that matter, but definitely not both.)

[Makarion]

Ranger/bard into Mystic Theurge. You know you want to ;)

[RJGrady]

I think the Dual-Talent human is a good call. How about a druid/witch with the Fire domain? One thing about Mystic Theurges with wizard and witch levels; your spellbook does not automatically grow.

[Dasrak]

Given the cap, using either oracle or sorcerer is a no-go. The shared casting stat is nice, but caster level is far, far more valuable and there just isn't enough time for the slower spontaneous theurge to mature. There's really only one thing you can do to help a mystic theurge build: get your hands on every single caster level increase your GM will allow. That doesn't exactly leave a lot of options in PFS.

One of the few places where the Mystic Theurge really shines is with undead minions. Both classes count separately for the number of minions you can control, meaning you can have significantly more as a Mystic Theurge than as any other class. As well, this is the only character that has access to both the desecrate and command undead spells.

[Tarantula]

A Heavens Oracle can be very nice with the Awesome Display ability.

Spoiler:

Awesome Display (Su): Your phantasmagoric displays accurately model the mysteries of the night sky, dumbfounding all who behold them. Each creature affected by your illusion (pattern) spells is treated as if its total number of Hit Dice were equal to its number of Hit Dice minus your Charisma modifier (if positive).

[MyTThor]

I'd make it a Samsaran for wis and int bonuses, be a Cleric, then cherry pick some good druid spells from the druid or paladin list with mystic past life. Witch/Wizard isn't a good idea, because your hexes won't scale, and the main other benefit of being a witch is the cleric spells you get access to, which you'll already have the benefit of by having cleric level. Same thing with druid, since your wild shape and animal companion wouldn't advance, and the domain is wasted because you already have such a varied spell list, plus you get 2 from being a cleric, rather than just one.

I think it's a little strange to ask for flavor advice, but for what it's worth, Nethys is a no-brainer for the flavor.

I know you don't want to hear it, but being an offensive/controlling caster is just about the worst way to go with Theurge, which is already very suboptimal. The reason being that offensive/controller casters depend so heavily on caster level and your caster level is going to be 3 behind an equivalent focused caster. Think about that - it means your spells will fail or be lessened in effectiveness 15% more of the time than a single classed caster. It's like walking around in Studded Leather, but without the AC benefit.

Also keep in mind that the coolest benefit of being a Mystic Theurge, casting 2 spells at once, you'll never get in PFS.

From a pure optimization standpoint, if you insist on doing theurge, one way to help keep those DC's up somewhat is to pick 2 classes with the same casting stat. Best way to do it is probably Empyreal Bloodline Sorceror and Cleric (or druid).

[RJGrady]

I think 4/4/4 would be okay. You'd have 4th level spells. I think deciding on a spell selection first is the thing.

[Psion-Psycho]

Cleric 3/ Wizard 3/ MT 6 Get the False Focus feat asap and ur golden.

[flamethrower49]

Well, take the heck out of Magical Knack, that's for sure. Maybe look some feats that boost caster level - Mage's Tattoo? Spell Specialization? Those seem a little focused, I guess, but it could help.

I would imagine you would worship Nethys or some god of Magic, for a flavor start. On the other end of the spectrum, mechanical options that look interesting include, let's see...

Devout Pilgrim looks like a great cleric archetype for Pathfinder Society. Your groups will love you if you use Caravan Bond with the Luck, Liberation, or Travel Domains, so maybe Desna would be a good choice of deity. (Seriously, though, when isn't she?) Your low cleric level hardly seems to matter for these abilities. (Maybe the Liberation one, but it's so good anyway.) You aren't concerned with losing medium armor proficiency. Additionally, the way I read the Caravan Bond ability, you can use any of your domains on your allies, as long as you have one of the given domains... so maybe there's something clever there.

On the arcane end of the spectrum, a Foresight Specialist Wizard with an arcane bond item supplies a lot of flexibility, with all the DM-frustrating power of arcane divination spells at your beck and call. Plus, always acting in the surprise round is pretty cool. Go first, and if your low-level spells are seriously useless, then... hit somebody with a use of the Luck domain.

A witch, on the other hand, using the Evil Eye, Fortune and Cackle (with Extra Hex) has some minor buff and/or debuff potential that would always be available. I think I would tend to prefer a wizard, though, as they get more spells per day, and those should usually be a stronger option.

That's what I got, without looking at that ever-more-ominous feat page.

[ParagonDireRaccoon]

You can only take the Magical Knack trait once at first level (only one trait per category) but ask your DM if he would let you take Magical Knack again with the Additional Traits feat.

If you're going to be the arcane and divine spellcaster for the group, get a couple scrolls of must-have spells.

It's probably good to decide on an area to focus in- summoning is good, there are threads on what feats to take. And pick on school, whether you specialize as a wizard in that school or not. Spell Focus-necromancy benefits some cleric spells (slay living in particular), although you'll miss out on some very nice high-level necromancy spells with the level cap. If you can only take Magical Knack once, pick which casting class you'll use it for and build around that class. If you pick Wizard for Magical Knack you could focus on Transmutation, Disintegrate is one of my favorite spells and Baleful Polymorph is very nice as well.

[soupturtle]

I'd definitely take a wizard - witches have a lot more stuff that relies on class levels. The same reasoning would prioritize cleric over druid, but I'm not actually convinced the cleric spell list is better than the druid list, especially if you don't fancy playing support.

I would prioritize a single casting stat. Rather than trying to do offensive spells with both classes, pick one (probably wizard), and stick to no-save spells (summoning, battlefield control, etc.) for your other class. That way, your wizard spells will have a chance to succeed. If you try to do DC dependent spells from both lists, you'll just be sorely disappointed.

I'd also try to focus your DC dependent spells in one school of magic, and get spell focus in that school. Anything to give your offense an actual chance of success.

[Thalin]

3/3/6 Wizard (Transmuteer) / Cleric; focus on being a good buffer probably. Leave 1 physical stat (Dex?) at an odd just so you can always round it to even with the Transmuter ability. The issue with it in PFS is @ 8th level you're casting 2nd level spells... you capstone with 4th level spells. MT are never truly "good", but they get OK as the levels get higher.... PFS doesn't really have that; though the modules are starting to allow higher and higher level play. Rise of The Rune Lords can actually let you play 16th, 17th, and 18th level characters for the last part...

[Jiggy]

Wow, thanks for all the feedback! Let me try to address some things:

First, this being an organized play PC, anything that relies on exotic races (like samsarans) or "GM mercy" (like taking Magical Knack twice) is right out.

Second, I know it's going to be rough. I enjoy the challenge, as well as the uniqueness of doing something most folks wouldn't consider.

Third, I want this PC to feel different than other PCs I have. I already have a buff-and-stab cleric, so I'm not interested in buffs. Or at least, I'm not interested in focusing on them. I'll probably have some buffs mixed in, but mostly I want to be slinging spells at the enemy.

Ideas so far:
Let's assume for a moment that I go cleric/wizard, using a dual-talent human to have 18's in both casting stats from the get-go. As a wizard, I'll get a free Spell Focus in place of Scribe Scroll. For cleric, I was thinking maybe taking the Rune domain so I can again get a free Spell Focus in place of Scribe Scroll. I'm thinking putting these on Conjuration (grease, glitterdust, create pit...) and either Evocation (fireball) or Enchantment (hold person, murderous command, command, suggestion, charm person...) or maybe even Necromancy (blindness/deafness). Magical Knack would go to Wizard, since that would have more spells that care significantly about CL. My second domain would be something that gives me awesome spells, regardless of the domain power. And since the Separatist archetype exists, it could be anything, not just something that shares a deity with Rune.

Thoughts on that approach?

[Thalin]

A unique approach might be Evangalist Cleric \ Demagourge Bard.

The two stack in terms of giving you rounds of bardsong, and evangalist lets you channel "Charm" style spells.

Bard requires a 4-level investment instead of 3; but since the levels stack for inspire courage, you'd actually be at 7th level Inspire Courage (do it as a move action) before moving into Mystic Theurge... so the +2/+2 for the party would be a nice addition. Further, at 11th you can throw on the +1d6 sonic damage to all weapons (since that is skill point based). The cleric spell additions will actually be nice to the bard list.

Both have a bevvy of buffs and Enchantment spells; do spell focus (enchantment) and do that for debuffs and you have your buffs to throw around. The Demagourge bard lets you enchant undead; and the spell that lights creatures on fire and intimidates them is great at keeping yourself useful @ any level (-2 to all attacks, some damage, and set on fire). Tasha's is always good (and bards get it as a first level spell), and of course Heroism and such. Plus, bard makes you a nice skill monkey.

[soupturtle]

Jiggy wrote:

Thoughts on that approach?

This way you nicely split your focus at level 1, but as your levels progress, you will be forced to focus anyway. Which stat does your first headband go into? Which stat do your level 4&8 increases go into? What do you do after a +2 headband? +4 or +2/+2?

Also consider that your DCs are already suffering because your highest level spells are already 1.5 level behind the highest level spells of a straight wizard or cleric (and 1 behind oracles/sorcerers. That's already a -1 to DCs you have to overcome. Splitting your focus will quickly turn that -1 into something like a -3.

Thus, I really think you need to only worry about save DCs for one of your two classes, and let the other class be exclusively no-save. There's lots of good no-save stuff that isn't buffing (summoning, no save-debuffs, battlefield control), so it doesn't have to detract form what you want to do.

Finally, starting with 18 in two stats will leave you with 0 points to spend on your other stats. A total cha and str dump can still get you 14 and 13 in dex and con, but I personally wouldn't like two 7s in my character sheet. I'd suggest sticking with regular human for the bonus feat, or elf if you focus on int for the magic benefits. Buy your secondary casting stat to 14 but no higher and you have some wiggle room left for decent dex and con without totally dumping str and cha, or even to start with a 19 in your primary stat.

[Rory]

I don't think you'll have the need for high stats in both casting classes. You can of course, but is it a driver? Determine one class as the "save DC" class, while the other is the "utility and no save DCs" class.

Your wizard is specced for high save DCs (18 INT, Spell Focus Conjuration, Magical Lineage, etc.)

Have your cleric focus on something not save DC oriented, but still just as potent. A good example of this could be summoning. You can have a minimal assortment of key buffs, just not focused on them. You can also have a minimal assortment of patching up spells.

I think that focusing on conjuration can give the wizard powerful control spells while also completing pre-req's for clerical summoning.

That being said, you could make a wizard conjuration specialist with Acadamae Graduate to fast cast arcane summons while using a cleric domain (Community or Healing/Restoration) to remove any fatigue dangers. At later levels, you could do Sacred Summons to crank out fast summons from both sides.

[Jiggy]

To answer the "focus-splitting" concerns, I was thinking a moderate prioritization of wizard over cleric for save DCs, but not a total one-stat focus. So I'd have 18's in both to start, put a +2 headband to INT along with level bumps, then put an ioun stone for +2 WIS (only 2k gold more than splitting the headband) so that I still have the option of upgrading to +4 on the INT headband.

Basically, INT will be primary, but WIS will be high enough to stay out of "why did you even bother casting a SoS spell?" range. Then I'd have most (but not quite all) of my save spells on the wizard side, with a few of the cleric's nicest SoS spells (murderous command at low levels, hold person magnitudes earlier than my wizard slots can get it, possibly create pit in a domain slot, and so forth) plus some non-save spells in the rest of the cleric slots.

I think that's doable, right?

[Rory]

Jiggy wrote:

I think that's doable, right?

It should be doable, yes, but be careful of a potential trap.

Analagous. You can similarly load up a mystic theurge with every single buff under the sun and treat him as the supreme buffer extraorinaire. He has Enlarge Person, Bull's Strength, Bless, Prayer, Haste, etc.

The fault? You can only cast so many buffing spells in combat. A lot of those extra buff spells you'll not be able to cast due to not having enough actions to do so.

Similarly, having both sides be "save DC" oriented means that you are going to be loaded up on lots and lots of save DC spells. There is going to be major overlap and not enough time for it all.

Putting half the focus into "save DC" and half the focus into "utility, buff, summons, non-save DC" leaves you with all the options to use the "save DC" plus gives you options for other spells.

So the theory goes...

Have you considered the Law/Inevitable domain for the 3+WIS times per day of the Command spell? That seems pretty potent if you did go double casting stats.

[kaisc006]

Thalin wrote:

A unique approach might be Evangalist Cleric \ Demagourge Bard.

This is an interesting idea. Bardic song paired with a haste spell in the first round of combat would effectively boost your party close to three levels (due to the extra attack). Bard's shred encounters at this time. The only problem is you aren't getting all you can from MT because bard increases at a slower rate :/

Regardless, the MT is best served as a buffing caster due to the loss of caster levels. Building him into both a buffer and utility caster (with spells like daylight, see invisibility, invisibility purge, ect.) would be awesome. Especially in season 4 scenarios where debilitating encounters are more prevalent.

[Jiggy]

Rory wrote:

Have you considered the Law/Inevitable domain for the 3+WIS times per day of the Command spell? That seems pretty potent if you did go double casting stats.

Interesting... And it's a supernatural ability, too!

[Thalin]

I actually really liked the Evangalist / Bard. You do also get the demoralize effect spell; and the Evangalist gives you solid channel utility. I was thinking about a Demogourge Bard in general, that may add to the arsenal of tricks... though as stated it's more of a "Buffer" than debuffer (Cha-based). Though ironically you get your magical knack for cleric, since their buffs tend towards level dependency more.

Start human bard 4
Str: 7
Int: 10
Wis: 18 (+2 to 2 stats-style human)
Dex: 12
Con: 12
Cha: 18 (+2)

1: Spell Focus (Enchantment), 2: Versite perform (Oratory, since you have to use it for evangalist)
3: Greater Spell Focus(Enchantment)
5: Antagonize
7: Spell Penetrate
9: Greater Spell Penetrate

You'll have a Tasha's with a DC: 17 and Daze with DC: 16 that "wins" low levels.

Then switch over to cleric, pick up buffs and the ability to channel command and such.

Once you have the +2/+2, switch to theurge to keep the spells flowing in. @ 11 add the +1d6 damage to your bardsong (since that also requires oratory).

Yay!

[Jiggy]

An interesting idea, but not the play experience I'm after. I want to be very focused on casting spells (or using a similar ability).

[Rory]

Another idea might be a Witch and Dual-Cursed Oracle mystic theurge. Oracle 4 / Witch 3 / Mystic Theurge 5

You could end up with an extremely strong debuffer and control caster.

Oracle 1 gives you the Misfortune revelation. Combine this with Cause Fear and Murderous Command and you'll crack a lot of nuts at levels 1 thru 4. You could pick a Mystery that allows your CHA to be added to your AC to yield a pretty solid defense.

Witch 1-3 gives you the ability to rapidly expand on some vicious debuffs.

You'll be sporting tenacious debuffing capabilities all thru the "weak levels" of the mystic theurge.

[Roanark]

I have a Wizard/Cleric MT in a homebrew game and rather enjoy the Law domain for Touch of Law. I know you're not looking for a buffer type character, but I've found the buffing capabilities to be much greater than anticipated. If you can afford one, I'd also recommend a an Orange Prism Ioun Stone for the +1 caster level to both classes. For Wizard, I went foresight diviner for the nice bonuses there.

btw: Mine is currently a Wizard 3/Cleric 3/MT 4 and started at level 4 acting as both the primary arcane and divine caster.

[Kydeem de'Morcaine]

I actually might recommend you consider the cleric as the primary SoS spell casting class and put the ability concentration there. Cleric has some decent SoS spells like murderous command and hold person.

While wizard has a fairly decent number of no-save ray spells. So the DC doesn't matter (still be hurting for caster levels though).

So if you have an opponent that has a crappy save (and your know check lets you know about it), you can target it with a SoS spell from the cleric list. If it has good saves or you don't know what it's bad saves are, hit it with a ray spell from the wizard list.

[ElyasRavenwood]

Jiggy I have a mystic theurge in PFS, that i have been playing for, well i guess now 31/2 years now.

The character is a human 3rd level cleric of Pharasma/ 3rd level Wizard (necromancer)/ 8 level Mystic Theurge.

The character has quite a few flaws in its build, but I have had fun with the character.

His two domains are Repose and healing.

His mage school is necromancy.

I have focused a bit more on the cleric side, as much for character "fluff" reasons as anything else. I have interestingly found lots of interesting spells on the cleric list like "bestow curse" and "True seeing" and "plane shift" etc. I have had fun withe a prayer, haste, bless, curse, slow combination. With a lesser meta magic rod of quicken spell, you can get those spells out 2 per round.

I have had allot of fun playing an "ambiguous" character who uses necromancy to combat the undead.

[Thalin]

Oracle of the Heavens Theurge wouldn't even miss their levels. Since their "Awesome Display" ability is based on Charisma, not level, you just get to make Color Sprays come out both sides. Be a gnome :

Gnome Oracle of Heavens / Wizard (Shadow)
Str: 5
Int: 16
Wis: 10
Dex: 10
Con: 14
Cha: 20

Spell Focus/Greater Spell Focus / Spell Penetration / Greater.

So at level 2, you cast DC: 18 cone save-or-dies that affect creatures of up to 10 hitdice. Load up on the level-dependent illusions in both classes and blow anyone not immune to illussions out of the water. And they'll keep improving as you get a belt of +2/+4 charisma.

If you're going to do it, need to maximize the effect.

[Tom S 820]

http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2pjlt?Fake-Mystic-Theurge-build-advice#1

What is you end goal?
Is it to have caster that fills both Arcane and healer Roles?

The above thead is straight caster that looks like it dose it.

Elf Ancient Lorekeeper Oracle with eldritch heritage chain of feats

Cast Paragon Surge spell and take Expanded Arcana feat

[Jiggy]

Tom S 820 wrote:

What is you end goal?

A guy whose beginning and end is the casting of spells. Lots of spell slots. Lots of spells. Not much else. When my initiative comes up, it's not "What do you do?", it's "Which spell do you cast?" I'll probably invest a lot into pearls of power as well.

[james maissen]

Jiggy wrote:

An interesting idea, but not the play experience I'm after. I want to be very focused on casting spells (or using a similar ability).

So, to recap as I'm hearing it:

You want the MT PrC (mainly to say you have it).

You want to be focused on casting offensive (rather than buffing) spells.

So, you're going to need to find a low level spell or two that will scale very very well until 11th level.

I would go with oracle of heavens (dual cursed), focusing on color spray. Take magical lineage & spellhunter start with persistent spell. Of course, max CHA.

As to the arcane side.. you can decide between say witch (hexes, especially evil eye), wizard (init boost/never surprised), and sorcerer (more color sprays and save DCs). If going sorcerer I'd go seeker and pick up trapfinding as well to add to your usefulness in a party.

The main obstacle is to effectively leverage lower level spells when you 'should' be having higher level spells for your level. Between the metamagic boost of the traits, and the caster level independence of color spray you should be able to achieve it and still be viable.

Does it delay you getting higher level spell slots? Sure, but so does MT.

Another bonus for a CHA based caster here is that a circlet of persuasion will help with your concentration checks (as they are CHA checks) which you will need with the lower CL.

Salt to taste from here. Will this fit into your vision of the character?

-James

[Jiggy]

A heavens oracle spamming color spray is effective, but dead boring.

[Kydeem de'Morcaine]

Jiggy wrote:

... I'll probably invest a lot into pearls of power as well.

I would say the MT is the only caster that won't have much need for pearls of power. It is already going for skads of spells. You will only have so many opportunities to cast in a scenario.

[Jiggy]

Well, maybe just in early levels. Ultimately I'd like to be casting a fresh spell on every round of every combat, and have a few out-of-combat spells to boot.

[Thalin]

Someone once did the math, but you actually end up with numerically more spells as a sorcerer than a mystic theurge at mid to high levels...

You're saying you want to be a DC mystic theurge that doesn't specialize or buff? That doesn't even sound fun :(. There are ways to make the concept work, but you've got to give some grounds... it sounds like you are actually trying to not make a good character.

[Jiggy]

Thalin wrote:

Someone once did the math, but you actually end up with numerically more spells as a sorcerer than a mystic theurge at mid to high levels...

...That's disappointing.

[Tarantula]

Jiggy wrote:

Thalin wrote:

Someone once did the math, but you actually end up with numerically more spells as a sorcerer than a mystic theurge at mid to high levels...

...That's disappointing.

Going 5 wiz(arcane bond), 5 cleric, 10 MT I get 9 cantrips,10,10,10,10,10,8,6,4

20 sorc I get 9 known cantrips,6,6,6,6,6,6,6,6,6.

MT10/Wiz5/Cle5 total 68 spells per day and 9 cantrips.
Sorc total 54 spells per day and 9 cantrips.

This is including domain spells and wizards arcane bond school spells.

[Kydeem de'Morcaine]

btw Jiggy,
When/if you try this, be sure to come back and let us know how it went.

I will start GM'ing some PFS this summer and was planning to put all my GM credit to a new PC and was considering a MT for that new PC to get past the painful early levels.

[Jiggy]

I wonder if I might get a better representation of my intended concept with a straight-up wizard with a staff as his arcane bond...

[ParagonDireRaccoon]

Here's an option:

Wizard (conjuration specialist) 3/Cleric of Desma (Liberation and Luck Domains) 3/Mystic Theurge. Traits- Magical Knack(wizard) and Reactionary. Dual Talent Human (default human is worth considering for the bonus feat and bonus skill points, with a +2 in Int). Spell Focus-Conjuration as the spell focus feat in place of Scribe Scroll, Combat Casting at 1st. Augment Summoning as soon as possible, with Sacred Summoning as soon as possible if it's allowed in PFS. You can take Abjuration and Divination as opposed schools since there's enough overlap with cleric spells to cover most of the spells you need from those schools. At wizard 3 your familiar can deliver touch spells, and at higher levels you can use arcane spells slots to prepare divine spells (at a cost, but a useful ability if you can deliver healing spells through your familiar). Minimal buffing (but Haste is always worth casting), summoning at the start of combat, and offensive spells and healing spells during combat. There are threads discussing the merits of dealing damage and casting buff spells vs. healing in combat, but you'll have summoned monsters to deal damage. If you don't like the Liberation and Luck domains it might be worth taking Plant and Animal domains to get some druid spells, or the Rune domain and another domain. One thing you would normally look for in a domain is access to arcane spells, but you're got that covered.

Potential backstory: Your paternal grandfather was a great wizard. Your father was a mediocre wizard who wants you to achieve greatness as a wizard. Your mother was a cleric of of the god you worship. Dad has high Int and low Wis, mom has high Wis and average Int, you have high In and Wis. Magical Knack says you were raised by a magical creature, so dad works for a noble (he failed one too many Will saves and retired from adventuring early on) and mom travels a lot as part of her religion (healing the sick and spreading the word of god _____). You had an celestial outsider babysitter growing up. One of your goals is to find your grandfather's travel spellbook, which got left behind in an epic last adventure that he barely survived.

[Saluzi]

Have you considered race Assimar? It would work well with the Bard combination or be a reason for Sorcerer.

[Arizhel]

Requirements
To qualify to become a mystic theurge, a character must fulfill all the following criteria.

Skills: Knowledge (arcana) 3 ranks, Knowledge (religion) 3 ranks.

Spells: Able to cast 2nd-level divine spells and 2nd-level arcane spells.
===========================================================
I know you said "No Sorcerer/Oracle" but . . .

Oracle 4 (Heavens) Sorcerer 4 (Sylvan)
Gnome
Base Stats:
8 Str; 14 Dex; 12 Con; 10 Int; 8 Wis; 20 Cha
At level 8, 22 Cha.

gets you a Level 4 Roc (Assuming Boon Companion feat), Awesome Display.
16 Color Spray spells/day at level 8 . . each with -6 to the HD of each creature inside the cone . .

I am not seeing this being bad?
===========================================================
Wizard/Druid would be my next suggestion. Low wis on the buffing spells from druid, and basically using the Druid as a platform for fun wild shapes would be interesting.

[ParagonDireRaccoon]

With Magical Knack (wizard) you could meet the requirements for Mystic Theurge after level 4. With Wizard 1/Cleric 3 and Magical Knack you'll cast spells as a level 3 Wizard, giving you the prereqs to take the first level of Mystic Theurge at level 5.

[Kydeem de'Morcaine]

I don't believe so.
As I understand it, Magical Knack means the spells you cast are as if the were cast by a 3rd level wizard. You would only have the casting slots of a 1st level wizard.

[james maissen]

Jiggy wrote:

I wonder if I might get a better representation of my intended concept with a straight-up wizard with a staff as his arcane bond...

What's your 'intended concept'?

If it's simply spamming spells, then a sorcerer is going to work well for you. Go human, and imho pick up Razimiran Priest archetype. By 9th level you will be a better MT than a MT with a little investment in scrolls, staves, and wands.

But if MT is a *must* then you will want to make low level spells viable in a higher level environment. And that means leveraging them as much as is possible... hence the 'boring' color spray spamming, etc.

Personally, I never think that any mechanical class is a 'must', but rather look towards a concept. If you have one, then share it.

-James

[Gallo]

ParagonDireRaccoon wrote:

With Magical Knack (wizard) you could meet the requirements for Mystic Theurge after level 4. With Wizard 1/Cleric 3 and Magical Knack you'll cast spells as a level 3 Wizard, giving you the prereqs to take the first level of Mystic Theurge at level 5.

This won't work. Magical Knack doesn't mean you can cast level 2 spells as a Wiz1.

[soupturtle]

I quite like the advice of focusing on save or sucks with the cleric and non-save with the wizard spells. I think you should do that - there's lots and lots of good no-save wizard spells, and some quite nice save or suck cleric spells.

I'm also intrigued by the number of spells thing, so I've decided to test it, based on a mystic theurge that goes wizard 3 / cleric 3 / theurge 10, and excluding cantrips.

Level 5
Wizard (or cleric): 9 total (4 1st level, 3 2nd, 2 3rd)
Sorcerer (or oracle): 10 (6, 4, 0)
Mystic Theurge (actually a wizard 3/cleric 2): 8 (6, 2, 0)

Level 10
Wizard: 21 (5, 5, 4, 4, 3)
Sorcerer: 26 (6, 6, 6, 5, 3)
Mystic Theurge: 28 (10, 8, 6, 4, 0)

Level 15
Wizard: 34 (5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 4, 3, 2)
Sorcerer: 40 (6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 4, 0)
Mystic Theurge: 52 (10, 10, 10, 8, 8, 6, 0, 0)

So: the mystic theurge is marginally behind at level 5, marginally ahead at level 10 compared to the sorcerer, and way ahead at level 15. Although of course, most of his spells are low level, but you knew that already when you picked the class.

[Thalin]

I'd need to find the thread; but you're right, the math does come out in favor of Theurge. But as we see, not by a lot in the context of PFS; a sorcerer is just as likely to cast spells "all day" (2 less spells with 10th level), but has access to 5th level spells, so can do a lot more than the 3rd level spells accessed by the theurge (especially when we are talking about saving throw spells).

Maybe it was sum of spell levels castable? The thread was in this forum that did the breakdown. Regardless, I have rarely "run out of spells" with any caster above level 5 in PFS; especially if wands and scrolls are taken into consideration.

[soupturtle]

Sum of spell levels castable sounds like an interesting metric of spellcasting power, taking both number of spells and quality of spells into account. At higher levels that would give:

Level 10
Wizard: 58 (5x1, 5x2, 4x3, 4x4, 3x5)
Sorcerer: 71 (6x1, 6x2, 6x3, 5x4, 3x5)
Mystic Theurge: 60 (10x1, 8x2, 6x3, 4x4, 0)

Level 15
Wizard: 136 (5x1, 5x2, 5x3, 5x4, 5x5, 4x6, 3x7, 2x8)
Sorcerer: 154 (6x1, 6x2, 6x3, 6x4, 6x5, 6x6, 4x7, 0)
Mystic Theurge: 168 (10x1, 10x2, 10x3, 8x4, 8x5, 6x6, 0, 0)

So by that metric a level 10 mystic theurge is barely better than a wizard, and well behind a sorcerer. The theurge wouldn't catch up in PFS, but would probably overtake the sorcerer by level 13 or so.