The deed says "as a standard action" so no AoO for this, but it can be used for flanking (hitting someone with a sword is also a standard action, right?).
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Do they threaten? No. Can they be used for flanking? Since they do not threaten, no. Since it's a standard action, it cannot be used for AoO.
Why don't they threaten? They have a weapon that can be used to make a melee attack. Heck, as the opponent, I would be more worried about getting pistol whipped and knocked prone as a standard action than I am about getting hit with an axe as a standard action.
Why don't they threaten? They have a weapon that can be used to make a melee attack. Heck, as the opponent, I would be more worried about getting pistol whipped and knocked prone as a standard action than I am about getting hit with an axe as a standard action.
They don't threaten because the attack can only be made as a Standard Action. Same reason you can't Vital Strike on an AoO.
You can threaten with an improvised weapon. If a gunslinger uses, say, a swift action to flip his grip on the pistol around after firing\reloading (say, a swift action, or possibly free; that would be a GM call), then he threatens, as it's now a makeshift club.
An alternative would be to have a dagger in your off-hand, tied to a weapon cord so that you could still reload. When firing you are simply 'holding' the weapon; as a free action you change your grip on the hilt so that you are now wielding it. Granted, you probably wouldn't hit with it since you'd take penalties from two-weapon fighting and such, but because of the wording of threat, actually being able to hit the target isn't a requirement; you only have to be able to make the attack.
You do, indeed, threaten with Pistol Whip when you spend a point of grit. I defy you to point out any practical application of threatening an opponent for as long as it takes to make a single attack against them. You cannot make a melee attack with a pistol when you are not pistol whipping, and hence cannot threaten when you are not pistol whipping.
If you want to use a pistol as an improvised weapon, that's a proper "pistol whip." Of course, it's an improvised weapon in all respects. It also means you are not wielding it as a pistol, so if you have any pistol abilities that can be used as an immediate action, they won't work.
Since it requires a standard action to activate pistol whip and the melee is only available during that time I would think he can get a flanking bonus on his pistol whip attack, but others cannot get a flanking bonus from him. Nor does he threaten (except for that one attack) and he cannot make an attack of opportunity.
The part about "even when it is not your turn" means that you don't stop threaten the surrounding squares with your longsword even though its not your turn. But if you sheathe your longsword (and are no longer wielding a melee weapon like the gunslinger) then you do not threaten any squares around you.
It takes a standard action to make an attack with a melee weapon yet you can make an AoO with it. If you threaten a square with your Pistol Whip you should be able to make an AoO in my opinion. The only question I have is due to the fact that you have to spend a Grit point to use Pistol Whip. Can you spend a Grit point as an Immediate action? Or is the Grit point spent as a result of the action?
It takes a standard action to make an attack with a melee weapon yet you can make an AoO with it. If you threaten a square with your Pistol Whip you should be able to make an AoO in my opinion. The only question I have is due to the fact that you have to spend a Grit point to use Pistol Whip. Can you spend a Grit point as an Immediate action? Or is the Grit point spent as a result of the action?
Except that an Attack Action is a different, albeit poorly defined action from a Standard Action. You can Full Attack with a melee weapon. You can't with a Pistol Whip.
Fair enough.
It takes a standard action to make an attack with a melee weapon yet you can make an AoO with it. If you threaten a square with your Pistol Whip you should be able to make an AoO in my opinion. The only question I have is due to the fact that you have to spend a Grit point to use Pistol Whip. Can you spend a Grit point as an Immediate action? Or is the Grit point spent as a result of the action?
Activating a special ability called Pistol Whip is part of a standard action. It cannot be activated separately and always resolves as part of your standard action. So you would only threaten on your turn.
It's hard to determine based on how I'm reading the gunslinger class description, but I would say that spending grit is a free action, which must be done on your turn. Not an immediate action. In fact, the part of the description that says you can use an ability multiple times if you have sufficient grit seems to imply it is a free action and not an immediate. Remember that an immediate action actually uses up your swift action on your next turn and you can't use another immediate till after your next turn (IIRC).
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This isn't being explained very clearly.
Pistol Whip is a standard action.
Attacks of Opportunity are an attack action (not standard actions, ie. it's 1 attack)
So you can't use Pistol Whip (even when spending grit) on an AoO, because Pistol Whip isn't an attack action.
However, you can make an AoO with improvised weapons.
Threatened Squares: You threaten all squares into which you can make a melee attack, even when it is not your turn. Generally, that means everything in all squares adjacent to your space (including diagonally). An enemy that takes certain actions while in a threatened square provokes an attack of opportunity from you. If you're unarmed, you don't normally threaten any squares and thus can't make attacks of opportunity.
This exception for when you're "unarmed" is the only mention in the rules that says you don't threaten. Using a ranged weapon as an improvised weapon counts, so you can make an AoO with the normal -4 penalty for improvised weapons.
There's been other threads about this kind of thing, but the closest to an official ruling on AoOs with improvised weapons is an opinion from James Jacobs, but I think we all agree that a gun can potentially be an improvised weapon in this context.
Right. You can fire your gun or Pistol Whip, change to a grip where you are using your pistol as an improvised weapon (at -4 to hit) and threaten. On your next turn, you can change your grip and shoot or Pistol Whip again. Changing your grip is generally a free action.
Or do a dagger in the off-hand tied to a weapon cord. Which I mentioned earlier, along with the improvised weapon thing. :P
And again, the -4 penalty is irrelevant; you threaten if you can make an attack, not if you do make one. The only real reason a gunslinger would ever do this is so that he threatens and provides a flanking bonus to an ally.
Oh, as for gauntlet - a normal gauntlet does not threaten. It allows you to deal lethal damage but is still considered an unarmed strike. A spiked gauntlet, however, threatens. Personally, I think that's a bit nonsensical; from a house rule perspective, I allow someone wearing a gauntlet to threaten.
Personally, I think that's a bit nonsensical; from a house rule perspective, I allow someone wearing a gauntlet to threaten.
Interesting. That means everyone in medium or heavy armor unless they've deliberately removed the gauntlets that came with their armor. Which mean, just about everyone but rogues (etc.) and arcane casters gets to threaten even when they're unarmed. Heck, in for a penny, in for a pound, you might as well just go all the way and let everyone threaten all the time - after all, if it looks like a rogue it might have hidden weapons an ssneak attacks, and if it looks like a mage it might have held charges, and who needs gauntlets if they have that stuff anyway.
So, to be clear then, it doesn't actually matter *at all* if the gunslinger has the pistol whip deed? He threatens anyway, using his pistol as an improvised weapon?
Archers always threaten using their bows as improvised weapons? A wizard with a metamagic rod in hand threatens with an improvised weapon?
this seems very odd to me, and is in direct counter with the way I've always played it.... yet I can find no good argument to suggest this is not the case...
Personally, I think that's a bit nonsensical; from a house rule perspective, I allow someone wearing a gauntlet to threaten.Interesting. That means everyone in medium or heavy armor unless they've deliberately removed the gauntlets that came with their armor. Which mean, just about everyone but rogues (etc.) and arcane casters gets to threaten even when they're unarmed. Heck, in for a penny, in for a pound, you might as well just go all the way and let everyone threaten all the time - after all, if it looks like a rogue it might have hidden weapons an ssneak attacks, and if it looks like a mage it might have held charges, and who needs gauntlets if they have that stuff anyway.
Except that you can't threaten with a hidden weapon (because you're not "wielding" it) and unless I'm mistaken, the fact that a touch attack with a held charge doesn't provoke would indicate that you also threaten.
Apparent sarcasm aside, what exactly is the difference between threatening with a gauntlet that has spikes on it, and a gauntlet that doesn't? One breaks your face, the other breaks your face and leaves some puncture marks; if you're not actively working to defend against both, then you're not too great a warrior.
I've always felt that your description of "treating everyone as a threat" is essentially covered by the rules for fighting defensively.
So, to be clear then, it doesn't actually matter *at all* if the gunslinger has the pistol whip deed? He threatens anyway, using his pistol as an improvised weapon?
You have to be wielding it in such a way as to use it as an improvised melee weapon. A gunslinger who retains his normal grip on his gun, or an archer who keeps his bow in a standard 'shooting' grip, does not threaten.
You could just wear a Gauntlet, or Armor Spikes.
I don't think a Gauntlet would allow you to make AoOs.
Gauntlet: This metal glove lets you deal lethal damage rather than nonlethal damage with unarmed strikes. A strike with a gauntlet is otherwise considered an unarmed attack. The cost and weight given are for a single gauntlet.
Medium and heavy armors (except breastplate) come with gauntlets. Your opponent cannot use a disarm action to disarm you of gauntlets.
Unarmed Attacks: Striking for damage with punches, kicks, and head butts is much like attacking with a melee weapon, except for the following:
Attacks of Opportunity: Attacking unarmed provokes an attack of opportunity from the character you attack, provided she is armed. The attack of opportunity comes before your attack. An unarmed attack does not provoke attacks of opportunity from other foes, nor does it provoke
an attack of opportunity from an unarmed foe.An unarmed character can’t take attacks of opportunity (but see “Armed” Unarmed Attacks, below).
“Armed” Unarmed Attacks: Sometimes a character’s or creature’s unarmed attack counts as an armed attack. A monk, a character with the Improved Unarmed Strike feat, a spellcaster delivering a touch attack spell, and a creature with natural physical weapons all count as being armed (see natural attacks).
Note that being armed counts for both offense and defense (the character can make attacks of opportunity).
but switching grip is a free action, right? So that doesn't make any difference either.
So, to be clear then, it doesn't actually matter *at all* if the gunslinger has the pistol whip deed? He threatens anyway, using his pistol as an improvised weapon?You have to be wielding it in such a way as to use it as an improvised melee weapon. A gunslinger who retains his normal grip on his gun, or an archer who keeps his bow in a standard 'shooting' grip, does not threaten.
Where are the rules that you have to use improvised weapons in a certain way? What stops someone from striking with the barrel, rather than butt, of a gun? Besides, since there are precious few rules for changing your grip (the only ones that spring to mind are the polearm fighter archetype that lets you switch between reach and nonreach attacks) this is really just a matter of semantics. Functionally, the bow or pistol user can still use their weapon, the "shift their grip" to threaten, and on their turn "shift their grip" back again to use their weapon normally again. Unless you add in house rules, this argument doesn't really work.
Because a weapon has to be ready. A pistol and an improvised weapon are two different things. If you ready a pistol, you are not readying an improvised weapon. You can say, "But my pistol is an improvised weapon," but that doesn't count unless you wield it in that fashion. You can use your belt as an improvised weapon, but it doesn't count while you're wearing it on your waist. You can use a pistol as an improvised weapon, but it doesn't count while you're pistoling with it.
Really, pistol whip is just strange. Going around threatening people and whacking them with your pistol really isn't the point. If you want to do that, that's really more the province of Catch Off-Guard.
Where are the rules that you have to use improvised weapons in a certain way? What stops someone from striking with the barrel, rather than butt, of a gun? Besides, since there are precious few rules for changing your grip (the only ones that spring to mind are the polearm fighter archetype that lets you switch between reach and nonreach attacks) this is really just a matter of semantics. Functionally, the bow or pistol user can still use their weapon, the "shift their grip" to threaten, and on their turn "shift their grip" back again to use their weapon normally again. Unless you add in house rules, this argument doesn't really work.So, to be clear then, it doesn't actually matter *at all* if the gunslinger has the pistol whip deed? He threatens anyway, using his pistol as an improvised weapon?You have to be wielding it in such a way as to use it as an improvised melee weapon. A gunslinger who retains his normal grip on his gun, or an archer who keeps his bow in a standard 'shooting' grip, does not threaten.
Ultimately, it will come down to GM fiat. JJ has stated that changing your grip on a two-handed weapon is a free action; I see no reason to believe that this would differ for one-handed weapons.
However, the rules also state that a GM can limit the number of free actions taken in a round, since at some point the number of "consume very little time or effort" actions combine to consume considerable time and effort. If a person had called out three warnings during a round, stopped concentrating on a spell, dropped the dagger in his off-hand, and reached into his spell component pouch to prepare components for a spell, I might balk at him then readying his staff to thwap someone. Depends on the circumstances.
As for wielding, I'll see if I can dig up the discussion on it. I think the designers chimed in on it.
You ready it when it's in your hand and out of your holster/scabbard/whatever.
You wield it in that fashion when you make the attack.
But you have to make a decision as to how it's being wielded, and you have to do it on your turn. A longsword cannot be wielded both one and two-handed. Something cannot be both a pistol and an improvised weapon.
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This isn't being explained very clearly.
Pistol Whip is a standard action.
Attacks of Opportunity are an attack action (not standard actions, ie. it's 1 attack)So you can't use Pistol Whip (even when spending grit) on an AoO, because Pistol Whip isn't an attack action.
Seems to be a discrepancy with these statements, despite your assertations (being unable to use a Pistol Whip in an AoO) being correct.
An attack of opportunity isn't even stated explicitly to be an action at all. If anything, an attack of opportunity behaves as a free action that can be taken at any point of combat when certain conditions are met.
As for my concurrence on the matter, the Pistol Whip ability only seems to consider the Gunslinger proficient with the fire-arm as a melee weapon during the standard action of the Pistol Whip.
Pistol-Whip (Ex): At 3rd level, the gunslinger can make a surprise melee attack with the butt or handle of her firearm as a standard action. When she does, she is considered to be proficient with the firearm as a melee weapon and gains a bonus on the attack and damage rolls equal to the enhancement bonus of the firearm. The damage dealt by the pistol-whip is of the bludgeoning type, and is determined by the size of the firearm. One-handed firearms deal 1d6 points of damage (1d4 if wielded by Small creatures) and two-handed firearms deal 1d10 points of damage (1d8 if wielded by Small creatures). Regardless of the gunslinger's size, the critical multiplier of this attack is 20/×2. If the attack hits, the gunslinger can make a combat maneuver check to knock the target prone as a free action. Performing this deed costs 1 grit point.
One may argue that, by RAW, it doesn't specifically state that the gunslinger *loses* that proficiency after the pistol whip is made. To which, I must pose the questions,"If it doesn't state when the gunslinger loses the proficiency, then when does it end? Does the proficiency gained ever 'go away'?"
Bottom line: I think it was intended for the pistol whip to only be a proficient melee attack during the ability's use, after the attack is made, the gunslinger is no longer proficient, and cannot make attacks of opportunity with it. Even in the case of expending a grit point during an AoO, you cannot make a pistol whip, because that requires a standard action to do so.
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This isn't being explained very clearly.
Pistol Whip is a standard action.
Attacks of Opportunity are an attack action (not standard actions, ie. it's 1 attack)So you can't use Pistol Whip (even when spending grit) on an AoO, because Pistol Whip isn't an attack action.
However, you can make an AoO with improvised weapons.
Threatened Squares: You threaten all squares into which you can make a melee attack, even when it is not your turn. Generally, that means everything in all squares adjacent to your space (including diagonally). An enemy that takes certain actions while in a threatened square provokes an attack of opportunity from you. If you're unarmed, you don't normally threaten any squares and thus can't make attacks of opportunity.This exception for when you're "unarmed" is the only mention in the rules that says you don't threaten. Using a ranged weapon as an improvised weapon counts, so you can make an AoO with the normal -4 penalty for improvised weapons.
There's been other threads about this kind of thing, but the closest to an official ruling on AoOs with improvised weapons is an opinion from James Jacobs, but I think we all agree that a gun can potentially be an improvised weapon in this context.
So archer or a crowwbowman threaten as he can club you with his bow or crossbow?
He can make an AoO with a bow or crossbow that he is currently using to fire arrows and bolts?A wizard threaten even if he has no touch spell ready as he can cast a touch spell as a standard action and that is valid only as long as he has touch spells available?
Just to clarify for people: my question wasn't at all related to *wanting* to make a gunslinger threaten - personally, I'd much rather stay out of melee range as a gunslinger. The question was more of a "if you're there anyway, do you get an AoO?"
In any case, it seems the answer is 'no.' Thank you for your input!
Actually, I'd more say the answer is leaning towards "Yes" pending clarifications.
Just an aside: As a pistolero, unless you're dual-wielding pistols, just slap a cestus on your off-hand, and then tell the GM that as a free action at the end of every round, you 'ready' the cestus (i.e., you go from simply having it on your hand to being ready to actively attack with it; this is primarily important to avoid the TWF penalties).
A wizard can technically do the same thing. Any class can, actually, since I believe every class gets simple weapons.
:P
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(about melee attacking with a gun as an improvised weapon)So archer or a crowwbowman threaten as he can club you with his bow or crossbow?
Yes. Bows, crossbows (and guns) are improvised weapons for the purposes of melee attacks.
He can make an AoO with a bow or crossbow that he is currently using to fire arrows and bolts?
Yes, but only as a melee attack, not a ranged attack:
Making an Attack of Opportunity: An attack of opportunity is a single melee attack, and most characters can only make one per round.
A wizard threaten even if he has no touch spell ready as he can cast a touch spell as a standard action and that is valid only as long as he has touch spells available?
I think you're talking about casting a spell here (even if it is melee touch), and that's not the same thing.
I'm inclined to say that's not possible, but I can't find where it says AoOs are an attack action or non-action. If it's the latter, which it seems to be, I'm not sure what kind of spellcasting might be allowable.
We're talking about this in terms of the gun being an improvised weapon to be able to make an AoO - it can be done.
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A wizard threaten even if he has no touch spell ready as he can cast a touch spell as a standard action and that is valid only as long as he has touch spells available?I think you're talking about casting a spell here (even if it is melee touch), and that's not the same thing.
I'm inclined to say that's not possible, but I can't find where it says AoOs are an attack action or non-action. If it's the latter, which it seems to be, I'm not sure what kind of spellcasting might be allowable.
None, and that was my point.
1) The deed is a standard action like most spells, so you can't use it off turn and you don't threaten thanks to it during your off turn.
2) Some people was making plenty of example of characters "threatening" as they could potentially have ability X so the enemy would feel threatened and divide his attention, so giving the flanking bonus to the attackers.
I made a clearly impossible example to show that the argument "x can have the ability Y so the enemy would always feel threatened" to show the holes in that argument.
- * -
Personally I am not convinced that you can turn a weapon into an improvised weapon on the spur of the moment to make an AoO if you are using it in the normal way (like firing arrows with a bow or using a glaive as a reach weapon), but the rules are silent on that so it is more a question of the GM opinion than of RAW.
As a GM I would adjudicate that you can at the start of your turn decide whether to use the weapon as a pistol or an improvised weapon of the appropriate type and size. It would have to be used that way for the entire round, thus preventing and limiting any potential abuse. Sure you can threaten with your pistol as an improvised weapon, but you wont be doing that and shotoing it at the same time. Otherwise there is no drawback to using a ranged weapon versus a melee weapon as you will always threaten and provide flanking for others, something that ranged weapons aren't supposed to do normally.