Another data point, from Catholic Online, which seems to argue that what's new is simply the emphasis that even atheism is a sin that need not, keep you from heaven provided you do good—and through doing good, subsequently turn to God:
That seems like obvious spin to me. Nothing about Francis' words suggests to me that turning to God is a requirement for salvation.....
Not an answer to "Can atheists be saved", but "Can they be good moral people without God". Which seems obvious to me, but I've heard it seriously argued by theists.
I could care less if people don't think I'm 'saved'. That's an opinion with no real-world impact. Thinking I'm some kind of baby-eating monster is another issue. I doubt I'm alone in this, which is my guess to why I haven't seen much objection to the Pope's comments.
I think there's a miscommunication here.
Are you in this instance defining a true believer as someone who say they believe AND does good works, not simply believing? Because that's not faith alone, that is faith and works.
No, I'm defining a true believer as one who truly believes. As a consequence of that belief (according to Calvinist doctrine among others) that person will do good works,
A -> B, not A ^ B.
I do not assume to know what people actually believe versus what they say. I am merely bringing up the fact that there are people who fervently believe in God and the divinity of Jesus Christ that continue to do horrible things,Assumes something not in evidence. Since you don't know what those people actually believe, you don't know that they "fervently believe." From a Calvinist perspective, the fact that they continue to do horrible things is proof that they do not, in fact, fervently believe, and are simply lying about their beliefs. Certainly to you, possibly to themselves.
I assume nothing. I introduce that as merely the possibility. You are assuming that someone who does too much evil or not enough good (and how you determine that I'd love to know) does not believe that Jesus Christ is his savior.
Is this common? No. But such a person may choose to ignore or creatively interpret the areas of scripture that condemn the things he does, just as a Fundamentalist may choose to ignore those lines of Scripture that place a greater emphasis on doing good than on simply believing, such as the one I quoted in a previous comment.
Yes doing good is good, but has nothing to do with salvation. Advocating doing good, does not mean that he is saying doing good leads to salvation.That has nothing to do with an atheist getting into heaven because he is good. I never said atheist couldn't get into heaven, but they won't be up there for doing good. No one is save through their own works of good.Ummm No. He didn't say that. He said atheist can be good not that they are saved. Salvation comes from grace not works. Being good has nothing to do with being saved. Doing good my be a fruit of being saved and atheist may go to heaven, but an atheist who does good or is good does not necessarily go to heaven."The Lord has redeemed all of us, all of us, with the Blood of Christ: all of us, not just Catholics. Everyone! "Father, the atheists?" Even the atheists. Everyone!"I'm not sure how else to take that. But then you seem to agree, when you say that "atheist may go to heaven".
It definitely seems a change to Church theology that has long required faith and often the intermediary of the Church itself.Please explain, then, exactly what you believe the Pope meant in this statement, taken in the context of the whole speech.
EDIT: I mean the Pope literally says "Do good, we will meet one another there".
You believe this. This is how you interpret. That is fine. But that is not what the Pope is saying here, and not the way I see it.
He is actually saying even Athiests are saved, and that they will meet Catholics in the afterlife if they do good works.
Yes doing good is good, but has nothing to do with salvation. Advocating doing good, does not mean that he is saying doing good leads to salvation.That has nothing to do with an atheist getting into heaven because he is good. I never said atheist couldn't get into heaven, but they won't be up there for doing good. No one is save through their own works of good.Ummm No. He didn't say that. He said atheist can be good not that they are saved. Salvation comes from grace not works. Being good has nothing to do with being saved. Doing good my be a fruit of being saved and atheist may go to heaven, but an atheist who does good or is good does not necessarily go to heaven."The Lord has redeemed all of us, all of us, with the Blood of Christ: all of us, not just Catholics. Everyone! "Father, the atheists?" Even the atheists. Everyone!"I'm not sure how else to take that. But then you seem to agree, when you say that "atheist may go to heaven".
It definitely seems a change to Church theology that has long required faith and often the intermediary of the Church itself.Please explain, then, exactly what you believe the Pope meant in this statement, taken in the context of the whole speech.
EDIT: I mean the Pope literally says "Do good, we will meet one another there".
You believe this. This is how you interpret. That is fine. But that is not what the Pope is saying here, and not the way I see it.
He is actually saying even Athiests are saved, and that they will meet Catholics in the afterlife if they do good works.
He said atheist are redeemed not saved. All are redeemed by the grace of God, but each person still has to accept salvation.
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You are all Popes!That's pretty cool.
I've been carrying this one around for nigh on a decade, you know, just in case.
But it looks like I don't need it anymore, because I am, of course, LG.
He said atheist are redeemed not saved. All are redeemed by the grace of God, but each person still has to accept salvation.Yes doing good is good, but has nothing to do with salvation. Advocating doing good, does not mean that he is saying doing good leads to salvation.That has nothing to do with an atheist getting into heaven because he is good. I never said atheist couldn't get into heaven, but they won't be up there for doing good. No one is save through their own works of good.Ummm No. He didn't say that. He said atheist can be good not that they are saved. Salvation comes from grace not works. Being good has nothing to do with being saved. Doing good my be a fruit of being saved and atheist may go to heaven, but an atheist who does good or is good does not necessarily go to heaven."The Lord has redeemed all of us, all of us, with the Blood of Christ: all of us, not just Catholics. Everyone! "Father, the atheists?" Even the atheists. Everyone!"I'm not sure how else to take that. But then you seem to agree, when you say that "atheist may go to heaven".
It definitely seems a change to Church theology that has long required faith and often the intermediary of the Church itself.Please explain, then, exactly what you believe the Pope meant in this statement, taken in the context of the whole speech.
EDIT: I mean the Pope literally says "Do good, we will meet one another there".
You believe this. This is how you interpret. That is fine. But that is not what the Pope is saying here, and not the way I see it.
He is actually saying even Athiests are saved, and that they will meet Catholics in the afterlife if they do good works.
Forgive me, but I find the difference between the words "saved" and "redeemed" to be semantics in this case. One word is frequently used in the place of the other when talking about this.
Just to be clear, atheists are still going to hell according to a Vatican spokesman. So much for progress.
[Digs card out of the trash]
Just to be clear, atheists are still going to hell according to a Vatican spokesman. So much for progress.
-1 Respect
:(
That statement is actually worse. Now apparently even other Christians that aren't Catholic can't get into heaven, either.
Party pooper.
That statement is actually worse. Now apparently even other Christians that aren't Catholic can't get into heaven, either.
Catholics never thought other Christians went to heaven.
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Welp, Vatican spokesman rained on my parade. I mean, it's SORT of nice that he said athiests can be considered good people... I guess.
I guess that revelation sort of moots this thread. I mean, I still stand by the things I was saying earlier, but there's little point to talking about it here anymore.
@Big Lemon: in this part of the forums we talk about things even when there's nothing to say.
That statement is actually worse. Now apparently even other Christians that aren't Catholic can't get into heaven, either.Catholics never thought other Christians went to heaven.
Which is the rebuttal to Pascal's Wager. If you have to pick the correct one to go to heaven, the odd's are not in your favor of randomly picking the correct denomination.
I agree with Guy Humual, I always like to see them make a fool out of themselves.
Its much better than stand-up comedians and jersey shore together.
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Because, just like me, none of these things are Catholic. Other religions allow female clergy and gay marriage. If a person wants to be ministered by a woman and marry their same-sex partner, join another religion.
That is a harsh and narrow point of view.
People grow up in the Church and love their religion. There are many Catholics out there who want to remain within the Church, but also want to marry their same-sex partner. It is not so easy to change your denomination or religion in the blink of an eye.
I personally know many gay Catholics who feel abandoned and betrayed by the Church. They are not going to wander over the street to their local Anglican church. Instead, they remain bitter about how the Catholic Church is so out of touch. Many just leave the Church and still practice as lapse Catholics.
The Catholic Church is not changing fast enough to stay relevant to the modern world. It is a relic run by relics.
IMO.
I am disappointed that atheists who do good deeds can't get into Heaven, because I had a pretty good plan to suckerpunch God at least one time before they threw me out.
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I know quite a few atheists, Buddhists, and other non-Christians that are pretty darned good people. All I'm saying is that when I do go to Hell, I'll be in fine company.
Ah, well. I guess my spot in the the Lake of Fire is secure.
Ah, well. I guess my spot in the the Lake of Fire is secure.
0:57--Where do bad folk go when they die? They don't go to Heaven where--AAAAAAARRRRRRRRGH!!!!!!!!
Rock'n'roll.
I prefer the Ring of Fire myself.
Does the current generation bear the guilt of all those crimes, or just what they have actually done/are doing?That would be nice, it won't bring them back or restore the native cultures they destroyed but it is positive.Ummm thanks.... Is it retrospective?
Will they apologise for all the good people they killed because they didn't believe in the catholic faith?
Hopefully, this is a preparation for that. :)
The people don't but the institution does, if you are part of an institution that has done the wrong thing, then it is important that you as a member work to get that institution to make amends, and redress its wrongs. [/QUOTE
During the year 2000 Pope John Paul II apologized and publically asked for forgiveness for the wrongs that the Church has done.