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We've been playing through Legacy of Fire at the rate of about one session per month for 19 months. We had an incident of in-party fighting occur.
The players don't have any issues with one another personally, so it wasn't an out-of-game issue. They're just a bit immature. I'm having a hard time deciding what I should do to resolve the issue if anything at all.
We're in the sixth and final installment of the Legacy of Fire, The Final Wish. We have five players; a female Human Cleric of Nethys, Kitsune Sorcerer (recent replacement character using ARG), Dwarf Barbarian/Fighter, Elf Fighter/Rogue, and Human Sorcerer (elemental fire bloodline). Before this session, we had only lost two PCs permanently as well as one henchman (this henchman died permanently twice).
During the one round inside the bag, the kitsune casts alter self to appear as an "old bald male human in a loin-cloth." Why? I have no idea, but that part wasn't planned with the Elf. The next round, the Elf dumps him out of the bag (move action). Not expecting this old man to come popping out, he stabs the old man in the back for a critical sneak attack (he's flanking him with the remaining Janni Captain opposite of the old man now). Kitsune is something like negative 30-some. Dead.
The dwarf up in the tower just finished off one of the Janni Captains with his "Throw Anything" by chucking a +2 thundering bastard sword through him. The dwarf sees the Elven Fighter/Rogue backstab an old man down below, and then the old man reverts back to kitsune form. The dwarf then uses Throw Anything to chuck the body of the Janni Captain at the Elf to avenge the kitsune. Crit again (2d6 falling damage from body plus I figured it would be 1d6 for just the impact of the body). The elf is hurting pretty bad, but still up (well not up, since it knocked him prone for a round).
The elemental fire bloodline sorcerer is pretty low on hp also, so he's been hovering around invisible this whole time waiting for the combat to end.
The Elf pulls the dwarf's thundering bastard sword out of the Janni's body that had just slammed him into the ground. He and the cleric end up finishing off the last Janni Captain on the ground.
The Elf refuses to give the dwarf his sword back. Most of the party has been using the dwarf as a treasure pack mule during the AP. Some have also complained that the dwarf's been getting the lion's share of the treasure (average party gear gp total is around 55,000 gp, while the dwarf has nearly 100,000 gp value in goods). Enchanted armor and weapons are more in abundance than other high gp treasure types in this AP.
The dwarf drops the elf with his nine-lives stealer axe, but not without taking a few licks. I think the dwarf's around 70 hp by the end of this. The Elf is also now at negative 30-some. Dead.
Invisible sorcerer now lands and dominates the dwarf. He dominates him so that the dwarf is agreeable to a quick teleport...several thousand feet up. The sorcerer drops the dwarf. The dwarf takes the maximum 20d6 and it is ruled that he crashed like a meteorite through the northern bridge into the river below. The dwarf ends up at -2 hp, but in addition to bleeding to death, he's now drowning. The bleeding stabilizes, but then the sorcerer teleports back down and zaps the river with a Lightning Bolt to make sure the dwarf doesn't climb back out. Dwarf dead.
Here's the problem. What's left of the party (cleric of Nethys and fire elemental bloodline sorcerer), doesn't have the proper components to perform the "come back to life" spells to bring their companions back. Nefeshti won't risk Wishes at this point since it will alert Jhavhul (big bad guy genie). The two PCs will not be able to take Jhavhul on their own. With the Liberation Point twist, they now have 2 Liberation Points, but the amount of time that they will need to get back into action with the Dwarf and Elf (this was the Kitsune player's farewell game) will likely mean negative Liberation Points. Basically, I think that this means they will fail at the AP due to one horrible session.
Should I save them from themselves or let the AP come to a logical conclusion?
I have a water spray bottle that I use when my cat crosses boundaries. It should work on players just as well.
It sounds like you need to talk with the players though, for rizzle. Only you as a group can decide if you still want to play this game, and what steps you will take to avoid something like this happening again.
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In my opinion, you as the DM let this get out of hand. Just by letting the characters know, or by having them roll intelligence or wisdom checks, you could have avoided the whole chain of events. How long would it have taken to ask one player if that wanted to tell the other(s)what it's course of action was going to be. Let this be a learning experience for all of you. The DM is in charge of the table. A simple, no you don't sneak attack the party member is perfectly acceptable. When one character goes to attack the other just tell them "No you don't" and move on.
Let them know you ALL made mistakes and see if everyone, minus the player that left, is ok with restarting the encounter. Things like this can break a gaming group.
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My opinion is different from DragoDorn's & KnightDruid's - it's not always the DM's job to save the players from self-destructive behavior or the consequences theirof.
Let things come to a logical conclusion. If they whinge about it, remind them you didn't interfere with their choices: they made this mess all by themselves. They were their own grudge monsters. This might be the best way to keep them from acting like that again. Or not.
Anyhow, they do get to make their choices.
Don't, IMO, immediately offer them a reset. If they really seem sincerely "oops, our bad - we shouldn't have done that" then offer them one, or some other fix. If their overall attitude instead is "WTF, you're not going to fix our mess for us? U Suxorz, DM!" - that attitude will show they haven't learned anything; if they have that attitude, then they earned the suck.
Not all campaigns end on a heroic high note. Some adventurers go down in lore as. . .examples to others. Bad ones.
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In my opinion, you as the DM let this get out of hand. Just by letting the characters know, or by having them roll intelligence or wisdom checks, you could have avoided the whole chain of events. How long would it have taken to ask one player if that wanted to tell the other(s)what it's course of action was going to be. Let this be a learning experience for all of you. The DM is in charge of the table. A simple, no you don't sneak attack the party member is perfectly acceptable. When one character goes to attack the other just tell them "No you don't" and move on.
Let them know you ALL made mistakes and see if everyone, minus the player that left, is ok with restarting the encounter. Things like this can break a gaming group.
I have had the "this is a cooperative game, and you need to work together or you will all ultimately fail," conversation with this group on more than one occasion. DM intervention was required to get out of The Jackal's Price also.
I don't believe in telling the players "No. You do not do something." Part of the beauty of the game is the feeling that players are free to decide to do whatever they desire. I think the consequences may have to be dealt with out-of-game since I've had these conversations with them before. I don't want the group to break up before we conclude the AP, so I think a re-do is in order. Two of the players will likely not be invited back during future APs, though. They don't seem to listen to fair warnings. One is gone now anyway since they moved away. The other just won't be invited back after this AP is over.
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My opinion is different from DragoDorn's & KnightDruid's - it's not always the DM's job to save the players from self-destructive behavior or the consequences theirof.
Let things come to a logical conclusion. If they whinge about it, remind them you didn't interfere with their choices: they made this mess all by themselves. They were their own grudge monsters. This might be the best way to keep them from acting like that again. Or not.
Anyhow, they do get to make their choices.
Don't, IMO, immediately offer them a reset. If they really seem sincerely "oops, our bad - we shouldn't have done that" then offer them one, or some other fix. If their overall attitude instead is "WTF, you're not going to fix our mess for us? U Suxorz, DM!" - that attitude will show they haven't learned anything; if they have that attitude, then they earned the suck.
Not all campaigns end on a heroic high note. Some adventurers go down in lore as. . .examples to others. Bad ones.
Yeah, I'm tempted to go that route also.
I'm having a hard time deciding who to invite to the next session, though. If I don't do a re-do, then I'll just have to have a mini-session with the cleric and sorcerer to see if they can get their allies res'd soon enough to invite the other two players back.
The player of the dwarf wanted to use this as an excuse to roll up a new character. I don't like that idea this late in the AP. It's a bit late in the plotlines to introduce someone new. Last session was likely the last spot where someone new could jump in.
I'm going to have to have conversations with all of the players and see what they want to do. Maybe a group vote is in order.
I'm still leaning toward re-do, though, since it has long-term implications on the campaign world if I let them fail. I suppose that could be interesting also, though.
Well, it seems your players are in a pinch. The cleric and sorcerer could either walk away from it all, ending the campaign, or sell some of their comrades' belongings to get the funds to properly raise them, so the party can take a shot at greatness.
Reboot is lame, they should 'suffer' their sold loot to get their heroic butts back on the field, they might even come away with a lesson learned.
Give the survivors a route to repairing the damage, it will only add to the epic-ness of the campaign -"Remember when we all flamed each other out but the casters came to our rescue, and then we beat the snot out of the Bad Guys?"
Hi-fives! Good luck!
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Reboot is lame, they should 'suffer' their sold loot to get their heroic butts back on the field, they might even come away with a lesson learned
Yeah, and, IMO, the worst lesson that could come out of this, for the players, is the one where they start to get the feeling that no matter what they do, the outcome will be the same. (That's always my general principle, which I'm applying it to this specific example).
That not only robs their bad behavior of consequences, it robs their good behavior from any sense of real accomplishment. I mean if they can tear themselves to pieces, drop each other from commanding heights, drown each other, and still the result will be the same as if they were paragons of heroic teamwork, then, IMO, *sadface*
That's also why it's not the DM's job, IMO, to 'make sure things don't come to this' - players need to have choices. Real ones. And if they choose poorly (blue. . .no, yelllloooooow), that should have an effect on the campaign. All roads the party takes should not lead to the same place.
Otherwise it's just storytime.
wat you takin bout! dey just actin like orcs. you see when two orcs get bord dey wanna kill somethin, so they kill each other. now i just like ta sit back an enjoy da show!
let 'em slug it out, it makes da game betta!
Why do the player do this kind of silly stuff ? Are they bored ? Do they hate their charakters or the adventure? It is some kind of revolution against the GM? How far can i go until the GM intervenes etc.?
End the AP as soon as possible and then start a new group at lvl1. End it so logical as possible, maybe with a TPk. Maybe this is some kind of education for your players ..
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Simply have Nefeshti have a couple of Salve of the Second Chance on hand.
Simple, and effective.
And pretty funny if they both come back as kobolds.
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Why do the player do this kind of silly stuff ? Are they bored ? Do they hate their charakters or the adventure? It is some kind of revolution against the GM? How far can i go until the GM intervenes etc.?
End the AP as soon as possible and then start a new group at lvl1. End it so logical as possible, maybe with a TPk. Maybe this is some kind of education for your players ..
Reasons? It's sometimes hard to tell what is roleplaying and what is the player. I have had several campaigns with these players before this, though, so I generally know where the PC ends and the player starts.
Elf player - he's bored with everything unless he's totally stirring things up. He's usually the one that goes solo and then ends up needing to have the rest of the party bail him out. I think he's also trying to find some game advantage by striking out on his own (additional XP, treasure, etc).
Dwarf player - slightly bored with his character concept since he's pushed it to its limit. He likes to pick on the Elf player a little bit, so he's always "picking up the Elf" in the game. Some of it is in-game, but not all of it.
Kitsune player - always bored with current character and plays semi-suicidal to allow him to swap out to a new character. He's the reason that I instituted the "new characters always start at first level" rule at the beginning of this AP.
Sorcerer player - harbors a desire to wipe out the whole rest of the party and steal all of their loot just to prove to them how powerful he is. Mostly based on his character concept.
cleric - you guys are all dorks. Get with the program and come on!
You have 3 bored characters, 1 who's character concept is anti-group-cohesion and one player who actually seems to want to get things done.
My friend, let me introduce you to a concept called "justified TPK." It's kind of like justifiable homicide, but way more fun.
Sometimes you just need to pull the trigger.
My friend, let me introduce you to a concept called "justified TPK." It's kind of like justifiable homicide, but way more fun.
May I ask where the justification in killing off the char whose player seems to want to get things done can be found?
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You have 3 bored characters, 1 who's character concept is anti-group-cohesion and one player who actually seems to want to get things done.
My friend, let me introduce you to a concept called "justified TPK." It's kind of like justifiable homicide, but way more fun.
Sometimes you just need to pull the trigger.
I checked in with the two players that have surviving characters. They don't want to do a re-do, so I think that settles it. There's going to be a mini-session with just these two and we'll see where it goes from there. Thank-you all.
My friend, let me introduce you to a concept called "justified TPK." It's kind of like justifiable homicide, but way more fun.May I ask where the justification in killing off the char whose player seems to want to get things done can be found?
Collateral Damage.
I'd even go so far as to take them aside and go "Look, the other players are bored of their characters, you're not. I'm going to wipe the party, and as a reward for not being a dbag, I'm going to slip some magic item into an early dungeon that is tailor made for your new character."
I've never met a player who had a problem with that.
They're just a bit immature.
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Elf player - he's bored with everything...Dwarf player - slightly bored with his character concept...
Kitsune player - always bored with current character...
Sorcerer player - harbors a desire to wipe out the whole rest of the party...
cleric - Get with the program...
That sounds like a player problem to me. The Cleric sounds like the only one who wants to be there. The Sorcerer's concept is difficult to play without wrecking the campaign unless played by a mature, experienced player. The rest sound like 20 month+ APs just aren't their cuppa.
Ask them if they really want to play out this AP, or just start a new module. And play a module, not an AP. A few sessions and they're done. New module, new characters if they're bored, same ones if they're not.
Otherwise, you HAVE to be able to say "No, you don't do that," to prevent these bored player's antics from getting out of hand and doing exactly what they did.
You could also try to take a session off and play something else once in a while to shake things up, but if you're only playing once a month, it can be hard to go two months in a story without playing and then just jump back in.
And pretty funny if they both come back as kobolds.This for the awesomeness.
You could also try to take a session off and play something else once in a while to shake things up, but if you're only playing once a month, it can be hard to go two months in a story without playing and then just jump back in.
I like this idea; back in the day when I and my friends were immature young gamers, we used to mostly play AD&D; but we'd often take breaks in the session to play some Traveller, Boot Hill, Star Frontiers, or just play risk or go to the mythical "outside" and play Horse or street football. Just to change things up a bit.
Of course, this works best when you're playing marathon sessions (we typically started on Friday, played till late, restarted Saturday when we woke up, then played till late), but it can be effective in less hyper campaigns.