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So your statement is that a couple f monk archetypes are good? then nobody will argue with you. Now, outside those archetypes monk sucks.
Back your statement up.
Post your fighter or you have nothing to talk about.
Because right now, your argument has gone from "monks suck" to "monks who ignore these available options suck."
that would be the Sohei
the Sohei, Zen Archer, Martial Artist, Quinggong, and Master of Many Styles are the big 5 archetypes. the Archetypes the monk depends on to be Viable.
the Sohei has to be 12th level to flurry with both polearms and longbows, and 6th level to flurry with just one of the two.
at 18th level, they gain the ability to flurry with 3 weapon groups, but they have no bonus archery feats, and have to multiclass to get a mount because they don't get their own mount, just the ability to continue another classes mount progression.
The blanket statement was monks suck, fighters are better.
The challenge posted was: you post a fighter, I'll post a monk.
I won't tell you how to build the fighter if you don't tell me how to build my monk.
If all you care about is damage, play a barbarian, a class that is severely overpowered.
i don't post builds because i don't do them very well. all a build shows is not the merits of the class itself, but how good the builder is at minmaxing their class choice.
there is no point
barbarians are actually balanced with the ranger and paladin
i want to see a viable monk who doesn't depend on the big 5 archetypes.
the 4 weakest classes are Rogue, Fighter, Monk, and Cavalier
my issue with the class is the designers built them around being naked and unarmed, but so many superior options outshine being naked and unarmed, and monk accesses none of them.Incorrect
Even the baseline monk can flurry with two-handed weapons.
He has no need to do so past the early levels, but it is an option.
what 2handers can a baseline monk flurry with? oh? Quarterstaff and Temple sword?
what a sorry list of weapon choices for 2handers to flurry with
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the monk gets what you're calling 'combat style feats' for free, too.
Compare the Combat Style Feats to Monk Bonus Feats.
Try to tell me they're in any way comparable.
Though I really don't know why I bother responding to you at all. The only thing you EVER add to a discussion is a "No, your argument is invalid lol gimme proof" in a slightly prettied up form.
If all you care about is damage, play a barbarian, a class that is severely overpowered.
"Severely overpowered".
You mean "Actually good"? Like the Ranger and Paladin are?
Yeah he's OP compared to the Fighter I guess (since he actually gets class features) but the Fighter's not exactly a good baseline for comparison here.
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i don't post builds because i don't do them very well. all a build shows is not the merits of the class itself, but how good the builder is at minmaxing their class choice.
People who post X class sucks compared to Y class should be able to demonstrate that opinion with hard numbers and defined characters.
I have a number of defined characters available, of several archetypes, including the baseline monk.
I have hard numbers available for reference when I make statements concerning what a class can and cannot do. I'm not playing Schrodinger, I'm not tossing out theoretical numbers and I'm not going off annodocial evidence or gut feeling.
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if you disagree you can use a master of many styles, a flowing monk, monk of the lotus or better yet a vanilla monk and then prove your point.
Post your fighter at level 10.
As stated.
Since you want limits, you have to use a sword and board.
I have my plain vanilla monk ready to go. Built him months ago.
let me point you to the rangerbonus combat style feats without prerequisites
the monk gets what you're calling 'combat style feats' for free, too. He also has an easier time getting style feats than anyone else.
Style Feats? you mean those feats that were deliberately designed to fix the monk because they were a weak class. a 2 level dip gets me the ones i require, and allows me to more easily access the others with a minor skill tax. in fact, most style feats are better utilized by combatants who dip 2 levels in monk for the style feats and focus on their main preferred unarmed class
+4 weapon or adamantium weapon
The monk gets adamantium weapons for free and he can't be disarmed.
Adamantium Weapon? you might be unable to be disarmed, but your enhancement bonus can be disarmed, and your greater magic fang spell can be dispelled. really, an extra 3,000 gold at level 13 is nothing to write home about
spellsThe monk gets ki powers instead. They aren't bound by spell slots.
they are bound by Ki points, which are a rarer resource than spell slots, but the advantage goes to the ranger because they can use wands and scrolls to expand their resources, a monk can't
Which he can use a few times a day, unlike the monk's immunity to poison which makes the monk able to use poison as a weapon without worry.
neutralize poison
the chance of poisoning yourself is only 5% and most poisons have an easy fortitude save, in fact, poisons are so overpriced and so weak for what they do, that there is no real benefit to them. in addition, neutralize poison can be used on an ally instead of yourself
The monk gets all good saves, plus really good will and reflex and evasion and immunity to disease and spell resistance and the list goes on
good fortitude save
ranger gets good fortitude and reflex, monk has better will. but for a monk to get the amazing reflex and will saves you mention. they sacrifice the majority of their ability to deal damage unless you use a highly specific and highly obscure weapon enchantment, or mythic tiers
not really
better feat selection
i'd rate no prerequisites and even early entry on some valuable archery feats better than dodge, spring attack, or combat reflexes
what a sorry list of weapon choices for 2handers to flurry with
You forgot the Sansetsukon
you have to waste a feat on that.
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you have to waste a feat on that.
what a sorry list of weapon choices for 2handers to flurry with
You forgot the Sansetsukon
So, now I'm not allowed to spend feats to improve my damage either.
The list of restrictions people have to use to keep the "monks suck" statement true keeps growing.
If you apply enough build restrictions, any class can be made to suck.
time to get started on that human switch hitter ranger
i'm a newb at online builds so i may have difficulty with the formatting and avaialable resources.
you have to waste a feat on that.
what a sorry list of weapon choices for 2handers to flurry with
You forgot the Sansetsukon
So, now I'm not allowed to spend feats to improve my damage either.
The list of restrictions people have to use to keep the "monks suck" statement true keeps growing.
If you apply enough build restrictions, any class can be made to suck.
you can spend the feat on it if you wish, i just wouldn't recommend it because it is only an extra point of damage over the temple sword.
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"Severely overpowered".
You mean "Actually good"? Like the Ranger and Paladin are?
Yeah he's OP compared to the Fighter I guess (since he actually gets class features) but the Fighter's not exactly a good baseline for comparison here.
Severely overpowered, as in they deal more damage on an unrestricted target list than any other class, and they get the defining class feature granting that damage at level 1.
They get the ability to deal that damage while enjoying the highest hit points and best saving throws in the game.
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you can spend the feat on it if you wish, i just wouldn't recommend it because it is only an extra point of damage over the temple sword.you have to waste a feat on that.
what a sorry list of weapon choices for 2handers to flurry with
You forgot the Sansetsukon
So, now I'm not allowed to spend feats to improve my damage either.
The list of restrictions people have to use to keep the "monks suck" statement true keeps growing.
If you apply enough build restrictions, any class can be made to suck.
As I said, my monks (more than one) were built months ago. I know what my numbers are.
Are you absolutely certain you know what the fighter's numbers are?
I might have those available as well. Its a side effect of spending endless hours testing different builds.
Severely overpowered, as in they deal more damage on an unrestricted target list than any other class, and they get the defining class feature granting that damage at level 1.
...So?
They don't have THAT much of an advantage over other classes, and they lack some things others have.
Less skills than the Ranger, worse saves (or, well, worse saves with no DOWNSIDE, anyway, assuming they take Superstition) than the Paladin, and both classes have a situational leg-up in to-hit/damage over the Barbarian.
That's why they're the balanced martial classes. They each have strengths and weaknesses the others cover pretty well.
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Severely overpowered, as in they deal more damage on an unrestricted target list than any other class, and they get the defining class feature granting that damage at level 1....So?
They don't have THAT much of an advantage over other classes, and they lack some things others have.
Less skills than the Ranger, worse saves (or, well, worse saves with no DOWNSIDE, anyway, assuming they take Superstition) than the Paladin, and both classes have a situational leg-up in to-hit/damage over the Barbarian.
That's why they're the balanced martial classes. They each have strengths and weaknesses the others cover pretty well.
They have a very situational leg up, and in the rangers case, it's not even a leg up until mid-level.
Since the barbarian can turn superstitious off if critical, it's not much of a disadvantage.
Severely overpowered, as in they deal more damage on an unrestricted target list than any other class, and they get the defining class feature granting that damage at level 1....So?
They don't have THAT much of an advantage over other classes, and they lack some things others have.
Less skills than the Ranger, worse saves (or, well, worse saves with no DOWNSIDE, anyway, assuming they take Superstition) than the Paladin, and both classes have a situational leg-up in to-hit/damage over the Barbarian.
That's why they're the balanced martial classes. They each have strengths and weaknesses the others cover pretty well.
i'd rather have a ranger, barbarian, or paladin than a fighter, monk, or rogue as my group's frontliner.
Monks get all great saves and then class features that help deal with things that need saving against.
Immune to poison and disease
+2 vs mind effecting
Evasion and improved evasion
Slow fall for pit spells and SR for extra fun.
Monks will also have decent dex, wis, and con
Best saves bar none.
Superstition Barbar and paladins get better fort, but a monks is immune to many fort saves anyways.
Monks get all great saves and then class features that help deal with things that need saving against.
Immune to poison and disease
+2 vs mind effecting
Evasion and improved evasionSlow fall for pit spells and SR for extra fun.
Monks will also have decent dex, wis, and con
Best saves bar none.
Superstition Barbar and paladins get better fort, but a monks is immune to many fort saves anyways.
but those same defensive monks are also the easiest characters to ignore because they focus on defense to the exclusion of offense
they go from "tank" to "last survivor" and any encounter that can kill this "monk" can cause a TPK because you are too focused on damaging the one PC you can simply ignore.
Monks don't focus on defense to be good at it...
They do have the fatal flaw of low AC.
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Now it is your turn to post your non sohei non zen archer monk.
==========
EDIT: This is not a strong combat style for fighter so If you can not surpass it with the best combat style for monks the point will be settled.
Nice build for sword and board.
.75(20.5)+.75(.3)(20.5) = 19.875
.5(20.5)+.75(.3)(20.5) = 13.325
.65(17.5)+.65(.05)(17.5) = 11.94375
.4(17.5)+.4(.05)(17.5) = 7.35
DPR = 52.49375
AC 30/14/27
HP 89
Saves 13/10/12
Go ahead and post another build, of any style you wish. I already knew what your DPR would be.
quinggong_10
Male Oni-Spawn Tiefling Monk (Qinggong Monk) 10
LG Medium Outsider (native)
Init +5; Senses darkvision 60 ft.; Perception +17
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Defense
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AC 30, touch 20, flat-footed 27 (+4 armor, +2 Dex, +6 natural, +1 deflection, +1 dodge)
hp 81 (10d8+28)
Fort +11, Ref +11, Will +13
Defensive Abilities evasion, improved evasion; Immune disease; Resist cold 5, electricity 5, fire 5
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Offense
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Speed 60 ft.
Melee +2 Adamantine Sansetsukon +16/+16/+16/+11/+11 (1d10+1d6+21/17-20/x2) and
. . Unarmed strike +12/+7 (1d10+12/x2)
Ranged Shuriken +9/+4 (1d2+8/x2)
Special Attacks flurry of blows +8/+8/+8/+3/+3, ki strike, cold iron/silver, ki strike, lawful, ki strike, magic
Spell-Like Abilities Alter Self (1/day), Barkskin (self only, 1 Ki), Feather Step (self only, 1 Ki)
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Statistics
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Str 24, Dex 14, Con 14, Int 9, Wis 18, Cha 5
Base Atk +7; CMB +15 (+17 Grappling); CMD 34 (36 vs. Grapple)
Feats Arcane Strike, Armor of the Pit, Combat Reflexes (3 AoO/round), Dodge, Improved Critical (Sansetsukon), Improved Grapple, Improved Unarmed Strike, Martial Weapon Proficiency (Sansetsukon), Power Attack -2/+4, Stunning Fist (10/day) (DC 19), Weapon Focus (Sansetsukon)
Traits Accelerated Drinker, Adopted, Elven Reflexes
Skills Acrobatics +14 (+26 jump), Climb +11, Disguise -1, Intimidate +12, Perception +17, Sense Motive +8, Swim +11
Languages Abyssal, Common
SQ ac bonus +6, fast movement (+30'), ki defense, ki pool, maneuver training, monk vows (vow of silence [+1 ki], vow of truth [+2 ki]), prehensile tail, purity of body, stunning fist (stun, fatigue, sicken), unarmed strike (1d10)
Combat Gear Deliquescent gloves, Oil of bless weapon (2), Oil of magic weapon (2), Acid (2), Alchemist's fire (2); Other Gear +2 Adamantine Sansetsukon, Shuriken (20), Belt of giant strength +4, Bracers of armor +4, Cloak of resistance +2, Headband of inspired wisdom +2, Ioun stone (dusty rose prism, cracked), Ring of protection +1, Bandolier (8 @ 4 lbs), 373 GP, 5 SP
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Special Abilities
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AC Bonus +6 The Monk adds his Wisdom bonus to AC and CMD, more at higher levels.
Accelerated Drinker You may drink a potion as a move action instead of a standard as long as you start your turn with the potion in your hand.
Arcane Strike As a swift action, add +1 damage, +1 per 5 caster levels and your weapons are treated as magic for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction.
Barkskin (self only, 1 Ki) (Sp) Self Only. Costs 1 ki point to activate.
Combat Reflexes (3 AoO/round) Can make extra attacks of opportunity/rd, and even when flat-footed.
Damage Resistance, Cold (5) You have the specified Damage Resistance against Cold attacks.
Damage Resistance, Electricity (5) You have the specified Damage Resistance against Electricity attacks.
Damage Resistance, Fire (5) You have the specified Damage Resistance against Fire attacks.
Darkvision (60 feet) You can see in the dark (black and white vision only).
Deliquescent gloves +1d6 acid dam to touch/weapon att. Natural/unarmed att is immune to ooze acid & doesn't split.
Evasion (Ex) If you succeed at a Reflex save for half damage, you take none instead.
Fast Movement (+30') The Monk adds 10 or more feet to his base speed.
Feather Step (self only, 1 Ki) (Sp) Self Only. Costs 1 ki point to activate.
Flurry of Blows +8/+8/+8/+3/+3 (Ex) Make Flurry of Blows attack as a full rd action.
Immunity to Disease You are immune to diseases.
Improved Evasion (Ex) If you succeed at a Reflex save for half damage, you take none instead. If you fail you take half damage.
Improved Grapple You don't provoke attacks of opportunity when grappling a foe.
Improved Unarmed Strike Unarmed strikes don't cause attacks of opportunity, and can be lethal.
Ki Defense (Su) A monk can spend 1 point from his ki pool to give himself a +4 dodge bonus to AC for 1 round.
Ki Pool (Su) You have a ki pool equal to 1/2 your monk level + your Wisdom modifier.
Ki Strike, Cold Iron/Silver (Su) If you have ki remaining, unarmed strikes count as cold iron and silver to overcome DR.
Ki Strike, Lawful (Su) If you have ki remaining, unarmed strikes count as lawful to overcome DR.
Ki Strike, Magic (Su) If you have ki remaining, unarmed strikes count as magic to overcome DR.
Maneuver Training (Ex) CMB = other BABs + Monk level
Power Attack -2/+4 You can subtract from your attack roll to add to your damage.
Prehensile Tail Your tail can retrieve small objects on your person as a swift action.
Purity of Body (Ex) At 5th level, a monk gains immunity to all diseases, including supernatural and magical diseases.
Stunning Fist (10/day) (DC 19) You can stun an opponent with an unarmed attack.
Stunning Fist (Stun, Fatigue, Sicken) (Ex) At 1st level, the monk gains Stunning Fist as a bonus feat, even if he does not meet the prerequisites. At 4th level, and every 4 levels thereafter, the monk gains the ability to apply a new condition to the target of his Stunning Fist. This conditio
Unarmed Strike (1d10) The Monk does lethal damage with his unarmed strikes.
Vow of Silence (+1 Ki) The monk must speak no words and attempt to be quiet in his actions. Accidental noises and the sounds of battle (such as the sound of a fist or weapon striking an opponent) do not affect his vow, though most monks with this vow choose their weapons a
Vow of Truth (+2 Ki) The monk is not allowed to deliberately speak any lies, including bluffing, stating half-truths with the intent to deceive, exaggerating, telling white lies, and so on. This applies to all forms of communication. If presented with circumstances where
Wholeness of Body (10 HP/use) (Su) Costs 2 ki points to activate.
A monk with this ability can heal his own wounds as a standard action. He can heal a number of hit points of damage equal to his monk level by using 2 points from his ki pool.
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+16/+16/+16/+11/+11 (1d10+1d6+21/17-20/x2)
3(.65(30)+.65(.2)(26.5)) = 68.835
2(.4(30)+.4(.2)(26.5)) = 14.12
DPR = 82.955
Hero Lab® and the Hero Lab logo are Registered Trademarks of LWD Technology, Inc. Free download at http://www.wolflair.com
Pathfinder® and associated marks and logos are trademarks of Paizo Publishing, LLC®, and are used under license.
+16/+16/+16/+11/+11 (1d10+1d6+21/17-20/x2)
3(.65(30)+.65(.2)(26.5)) = 68.835
2(.4(30)+.4(.2)(26.5)) = 14.12
DPR = 82.955
AC 30/20/27
HP 81
Saves 11/11/13
Aside from damage, the two are very comparable. The monk has a small edge on touch ac, and evasion. The fighter has a few extra hit points.
By changing combat styles, you may bring your damage up to the monk level, but you'll lose AC in the process.
Your numbers are weird. +6 natural armor bonus? Arcane strike? It also shoudl be state that to have 3 attack at max bonus you are spending a ki.
And above all, you do not meet the prerequisites to take improved critical. Fix the buil and we will talk.
Armor of the pit provides +2 natural armor
barkskin provides a +4 enhancement bonus that lasts 100 minutes and costs a ki point
he is also abusing vows for extra ki
it is also 1 level 2 low for improved critical
and abusing the recent faq of SLAs allowing you to take arcane strike
it also uses the 1.5 strength bonus on 2handers that doesn't apply with flurry.
other than 2 easy to follow vows, it is abusing a specific tiefling subrace and milking the benefits of the subrace.
it doesn't prove monks are viable
just that Onispawn are the race made to make monks viable
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What the builds showed was the conventional wisdom about other factors were actually fairly wrong.
Something about this worries me - if 95% of people can't get decent performance out of a class, and then you (through extensive system mastery) make that class perform well...that doesn't mean the class is okay. It means most players who try that class are going to have a mediocre experience, and that's a problem. The game should, above all, be balanced for players with typical levels of skill. If it's also balanced for players with very low/high skills that's wonderful, but it makes sense to go for the big group in the middle first.
(I don't mean the game shouldn't reward skill! But the performance vs. skill curve should be fairly linear and not too steep. If most of the community is finding a class weak, which can be ascertained by some pretty basic qualitative canvassing, then the curve is probably too low, and flat. If it spikes upwards at the very highest levels of skill...that isn't a heckuva lot better.)
Wait... People are claiming barbarians are OP, now? Really? The guy who can deal damage and tank is OP because he can deal damage and tank?
Heavens forbid a martial class can deal damage and not die or be dominated in a round or two! Even worse if they can actually do something against magic effects!
Also... Why does that Monk have Arcane Strike? I'm pretty sure SLA don't count as "Arcane".
And if a class needs an specific race to be viable, that's not a capability, it's a limitation.
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Your numbers are weird. +6 natural armor bonus? Arcane strike? It also shoudl be state that to have 3 attack at max bonus you are spending a ki.
And above all, you do not meet the prerequisites to take improved critical. Fix the buil and we will talk.
Armor of the Pit + Barkskin (a long duration duff that I receive as a KI power). Yes: +6 Natural AC.
Arcane Strike is now legal for anybody with an arcane SLA. Alter Self and Feather Step both qualify. I have a caster level of 10, so +3 to damage.
Improved Critical is a monk bonus feat at 8th level.
Yes, I count my damage while spending KI. Just like a barbarian counts his damage when raging. Are you going to tell monks they are not permitted to use a primary class feature?
*I did not count the +2 size bonus to strength I can get from Alter Self
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Your numbers are weird. +6 natural armor bonus? Arcane strike? It also shoudl be state that to have 3 attack at max bonus you are spending a ki.
And above all, you do not meet the prerequisites to take improved critical. Fix the buil and we will talk.
Armor of the Pit + Barkskin (a long duration duff that I receive as a KI power). Yes: +6 Natural AC.
Arcane Strike is now legal for anybody with an arcane SLA. Feather Step qualifies. I have a caster level of 10, so +3 to damage.
Improved Critical is a monk bonus feat at 8th level.
Yes, I count my damage while spending KI. Just like a barbarian counts his damage when raging. Are you going to tell monks they are not permitted to use a primary class feature?
I see. Still a barbarian coul rage like 25+ times at ay while your monk can do that trick 8 times at day (or less if you want to have your ac as high for a good portion of the day).
Yo have a point, I admint, However You presented basically the most optimized (non sohei, zen archers) monk. I will present my fighter and we will see.
I have 12 KI. 9 baseline and 3 from Vows.
If I were not building under PFS rules, I would swap the adamantine weapon out for Wyroot. Between number of attacks and a 17-20 threat range, I would recover a point of KI every few rounds.
A barbarian spends rage continuously once started. I can pick and choose from round to round.
*this is much more productive than discussing what characters that have never been built are capable of.
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Yo have a point, I admint, However You presented basically the most optimized (non sohei, zen archers) monk, and in order to do that you are dumping two stats. I will present my fighter and we will see.
Oh no, not the most. I'm not even close to being the best optimizer. But yes, when building a min/max character, stat dumping is pretty standard for all classes.
Last monk thread somebody posted an unarmed DEX build with higher AC breaking 100 DPR. I just don't have a comparable build in my system atm.
As a comparison. My bardiche wielding Quinggong/Sohie can manage 120 DPR, but drops 5 AC. My human unarmed monk with no archetypes can manage 88 DPR, but was built before the SLA ruling, has to drink potions of mage armor and cannot self cast Barkskin. Quinggong really opened up the class options.
Wait... People are claiming barbarians are OP, now? Really? The guy who can deal damage and tank is OP because he can deal damage and tank?
Heavens forbid a martial class can deal damage and not die or be dominated in a round or two! Even worse if they can actually do something against magic effects!
Also... Why does that Monk have Arcane Strike? I'm pretty sure SLA don't count as "Arcane".
And if a class needs an specific race to be viable, that's not a capability, it's a limitation.
Barbar is another class that has the "fixes" people want for the fighter.
Expendable resources, +2 skill points per level, and good saves (superstition)
Pre-slat books barbars had worse AC, but more health.
Both ki and Arcane Strike use a swift action, so you can either spend ki on an extra attack or get the extra damage from Arcane Strike, not both.
Monk 20 point buy human
17 14 14 10 14 8
14s are what I would call decent.
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Ok, let see it again.
- Deliquiscent gloves o not work with manufactere weapons
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/wondrous-items/wondrous-items/e-g/glove s-deliquescent
The wearer’s melee touch attacks with that hand deal 1d6 points of acid damage. If the wearer uses that hand to wield a weapon or make an attack with an unarmed strike or natural weapon, that attack gains the corrosive weapon special ability.
Emphasis Mine.
Weapons held gain the corrosive property.- Also, I am counting for your damagethis: +7 (str)+ 9 (PA) +2 (Enhacement)= +18.
So, Unless I amm missing something your DPR is lower than claimed.
I changed out the arcane strike after Ben pointed out the swift action cost of KI and added in Desperate Battler, my static damage bonus is now +19 instead of +21.
Number wise, I am slightly ahead of the falchion user on AC and damage, slightly behind on saves and hit points, but with the advantage of evasion.
I would say the two characters are very comparable in terms of effectiveness.
If we wanted to compare archers, it would involve using a monk archetype that is suited to archery (zen or sohei). By pure numbers, my monk deals more damage, but an archer will always full attack.
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Both ki and Arcane Strike use a swift action, so you can either spend ki on an extra attack or get the extra damage from Arcane Strike, not both.
Good catch.
Replacing Arcane Strike with Desperate Battler:
3(.7(28)+.7(.2)(24.5)) = 69.09
2(.45(28)+.45(.2)(24.5)) = 14.805
DPR = 83.895
I actually gain 1 DPR from the extra accuracy.
Desperate Battler works with the monk's high mobility and stated role, increasing both damage and accuracy when he moves behind the front line and away from his companions.
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More often than not MADDING with a 20 point buy I do the 17-14-14-14-7-7 route. In the case of a "typical" monk the 17 goes to strength and the 7s to Int and Cha (eliminating it as a "skill monkey", which we've already discussed they weren't good at in the first place; but making it viable in other ways). In the case of my current Fighter / Monk (strictly dex based), I do the 7 to str (since Amulet of Agility + Weapon Finessee + Agile Manuevers effectively eliminates the need for strength).
So the Oni-default monk would be 19 Str, 16 Wis, 14 Con/Dex, 7 Int, 5 Chr. If you really wanted the int back you could do a 16/14/14/12/12/7 (giving you a slightly lower Con but an actual bonus to int; making you more well-rounded but slightly less survivable, and putting off the "Strength boost" until level 8).
More often than not MADDING with a 20 point buy I do the 17-14-14-14-7-7 route. In the case of a "typical" monk the 17 goes to strength and the 7s to Int and Cha (eliminating it as a "skill monkey", which we've already discussed they weren't good at in the first place; but making it viable in other ways). In the case of my current Fighter / Monk (strictly dex based), I do the 7 to str (since Amulet of Agility + Weapon Finessee + Agile Manuevers effectively eliminates the need for strength).
So the Oni-default monk would be 19 Str, 16 Wis, 14 Con/Dex, 7 Int, 5 Chr. If you really wanted the int back you could do a 16/14/14/12/12/7 (giving you a slightly lower Con but an actual bonus to int; making you more well-rounded but slightly less survivable, and putting off the "Strength boost" until level 8).
Or you go 15 14 14 10 14 8, with race mods(human) turns into 17 14 14 10 14 8.
If you dump int, your monk is going to suck. Your part skill monkey. My rogues don't dump int either.
You not suppose to min/max the monk... They have 1 dump stat.
A lot of people misunderstand what the monk is meant to do. They think it is supposed to be comparable to a fighter.
1) Monk - can't do what it's meant to.
What IS the monk meant to do?
Role: Monks excel at overcoming even the most daunting perils, striking where it’s least expected, and taking advantage of enemy vulnerabilities. Fleet of foot and skilled in combat, monks can navigate any battlefield with ease, aiding allies wherever they are needed most.
So can monks overcome daunting perils? Well they have good saves, but I am not sure that's the same thing.
Can they strike where it's least expected? Not very well, they have only one class ability (abundant step) that needs a feat-tax paying to make it allow this, and while they can be sneaky they aren't ideal scouts. So a caster with a few spells or a proper skill monkey can do it better.Can they take advantage of enemy vulnerabilities? Not that I've seen. Monks struggle to hit and overcome DR, and have a rotten choice of weapons.
Are they "Fleet of foot"? Yes. How advantageous that is when flying comes in vogue at later levels is debatable. Heck, it starts losing it's edge when haste gets cast regularly.
Are they skilled in combat? Moderately, with 3/4 BAB. All the full BAB classes do it better. So do many of the 3/4 BAB classes, come to think of it.
Can they "navigate any battlefield with ease"? Really depends on the battlefield, but they are pretty good at it unles magic comes into play. When it does, others do it better.
Can they aid allies? Not beyond running up to things and trying to hit them, or providing flanking. So less than say a rogue or fighter could, basically.
So out of all of that, what doesn't say "combat class"? The worst thing is, there isn't a lot there that you can't point at another class and say "they do it better". A superstitious barbarian wearing boots of speed could pull just about all of that off and do it a lot better than the monk.
You can have better saves, better AC and equal damage to a fighter. It just takes a greater degree of system mastery.
I agree with saves and AC, but the damage output? No, I have not seen that, unless it was situational or you gimp the fighter to hell and back, or have a potion quaffing monk chugging back buffs like there's no tomorrow. And as you say it takes a greater degree of system mastery, and IMHO too much. I've lost count of the noob players who see the monk and try to play it only get thoroughly disappointed.
Alternately, you can build for control and lock down opponents.
Fighter can do it better. Sad but true.
A monk can contribute to both damage and control, while receiving enough skill points to maximize 4 - 7 skills.
Contribute, yes. Meaningfully so? That's another matter. Consider that a ranger can fulfil the skills function all on his own, fight very well, has an animal companion, and spells. Playing the monk is often like playing a sidekick when everyone else is playing the hero.
Monks are part martial part skill monkey.
No, RANGERS are part martial, part skill-monkey. Or maybe almost-all martial and ALL skill monkey, they can do it alone and more besides.
They fill neither role as a hybrid concept.
But other hybrid classes can fill either of their two roles at a stretch. The monk can't.
Their DPR is less than fighter, but greater than rogues.
Provided the rogue isn't flanking.
Their Skill points are less than the rogue, but higher than the fighters.
Almost everybody has more skills than the fighter, it's a very low bar. The monk has average skills, not good.
They make great scouts. They have enough defenses that traps eventually become a non-issue to them.
As long as your definition of the scouts role contains the clause "and sets off traps to alert the enemy of the party's presence" I guess that's true.
They can hit hard and their defenses are hands down better than the fighter for everything BUT AC.
Monks do not hit hard. They often struggle to hit at all.
Most of people's ideal fixes for the fighter end up looking like a Monk with higher AC and DPR.
The sheer irony of you mentioning this is delicious. Don't you see that in turning the fighter into a workable class this way, they are showing that the monk isn't a workable class?
The problem is that people are trying to squeeze classes, such as the monk, into categories when those categories have no basis in the actual rules of the game.
There is a reason those categories exist, and that's because they are the ones that practical experience has taught make a viable, balanced party.
I agree, there are classes that do not fall into one role or another cleanly, nor should they. The issue, though, is not that the monk does nto fall into any one of these categories, it's that he doesn't come close to any of them.
The system rewards specialisation, so the classes that "fall between the cracks" are at least 2/3 as good as the specialists in two fields, rather than half as good. For example, the bard is a caster/skill-monkey, with 2/3 casting, 3/4 a rogue's skill ranks and a LOT of special abilities that make him very useful in his own right. The same is true of the ranger; you'd prefer not to have a ranger as your martial, but he can fill it at a pinch (except as archer, which he does very well), and he's got skills covered pretty well, and he has a bunch of other stuff besides.
The monk can't fill the martial role easily at all, struggles as much with skills, and has a bunch of abilities that make no real kind of sense.
Dabbler doubts the monks power.
Maybe he's one of those people that dumps int on monks...
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I agree with saves and AC, but the damage output? No, I have not seen that, unless it was situational or you gimp the fighter to hell and back, or have a potion quaffing monk chugging back buffs like there's no tomorrow.Artanthos wrote:
You can have better saves, better AC and equal damage to a fighter. It just takes a greater degree of system mastery.
Look upthread just a few posts for comparisons between monk and fighter builds.
You'll see a monk matching a fighter point for point, without relying on potions.