My GM is not thrilled with how spell sunder works (truth be told, I have a hard time visualizing how it works, but it was very, very useful). Anyway, I need to select another feat or rage power to replace it with. I was thinking of the following:
Flesh Wound - to potentially negate one attack every round and can be used against energy attacks. I see this as being useful in every combat situation. I also have not seen the damage scaling to such an extent that I could not make my save on most of the weaker attacks from creatures. the way I see it, if I negate 20HPs per round, then that's almost as good as fast healing 20, which is pretty darn good.
Ghost Rager - for the superstition bonus to touch AC. Does not come up a lot, but when it does, it could be really useful, since the attacks could miss entirely and I would take no damage (or even works ability or energy drain) at all.
Dazing Assault - I keep hearing how good this is with CaGM, but still not 100% convinced, since most of the creatures we face seem to have a pretty high Fort save. The ones that don't, I could most likely kill outright anyway. But it is a serious consideration, since most everyone on the boards seems to recommend it highly.
My GM also has a problem with my spell sunder usage.
I recommend dazing assault, its just too good to pass up, especially for CAGM builds.
Come and get me... Cagm. Referring to the cagm rage power, that is available at 12 th level. Also, combat reflexes is needed to provide plenty of AoO's.
I still chuckle when someone calls CAGM Come At Me Bro.
How about Eater of Spells? Casters won't die as fast if you can't sunder their spells, so you can at least still reroll saves and get temporary hp for your trouble?
Alternatively, some combination of Surge of Strength and Knockdown. Casters hate using their CMDs, and being prone.
Dazing assault is probably cool too. Depends what you fight a lot, and it'll be streaky. I just did an unscientific survey of CR20 fort saves, and a lot are pretty close to 20, giving you around a 50% chance to daze them (if you didn't dip Oracle, 45% if you did). The higher fort saves tend to be around 24 (~30% chance to daze), and the freakish Qlippoth actually only fails on a 1. Of course, that fails to account for other CRs, and whether or not you'd be oneshotting these things anyway. I'd say it's definitely worth thinking about.
My saves are already through the roof due to superstitious and human favored class bonus. So Eater of magic is out. It won't come up often enough to be worth the investment. When it does come up , I realize I'll regret not having it though.
Already have Strength Surge as well as the Beast Totem line. I have considered Knockback or Knockdown, as well as Desperate Battler (with my courageous weapon) or Raging Brutality, but really leaning toward either Flesh Wound, Ghost Rager or Dazing Assault.
I'm can't imagine Dazing Assault would work 50% of the time on a CR20 creature (BTW - my character is 12th level). I would have expected it to be closer to about about 5% of the time at that level. Anyway, if this is even remotely accurate, then it may well be Dazing Assault all the way.
Dazing Assult is pretty amazing I think. The big thing is that it shuts down foes from hitting back with come and get me. I'm a little worried about banning spell sunder though.
Dazing Assault - It's not about the monster making their fort save once. It's about that monster making their fort save 7 times a round. Once you turn on Dazing Assault it is on for the round it applies to all attacks that round (Iteratives and AoO). A CR 12 monster on average has a +15 Fort save. That means you have a 35% chance to daze per hit. So, unless the monster has a huge Fort save (much higher than average Monster Creation Table), that monster will never get to act. P.S. Daze locking the BBEG can cause GM's to pout and throw their dice down long hallways.
Fleshwound - Does not work as great as you would want. You want to negate those huge hits that put big dents in your HP. However, those bigs hits require huge saving throws to negate.
Ghost Rager - pretty sweet, especially if you have big superstition bonuses.
Eater of Magic - You can still roll a 1 on a save, so a re-roll is always nice.
Knockdown/knockback - Knockback is better, especially if you have reach. Knockback is once per round while knockdown is once per rage.
I was comparing to a level 20 barbarian. You'd fail miserably at 12, naturally. But why compare 12s vs 12s when you'll be 13 in a session and a half? Anyway, very casual survey, and you'd be better off looking up some relevant fort saves. I'm not sure whether fort saves scale faster than BAB (theoretically they shouldn't, which makes Dazing Assault better over time, but con also increases with level, so I figure it's maybe a wash?). Yeah, it's not about just one save, it's about making lots of saves, but forcing multiple rolls is better the close to an uncertain result it is. If they're going to save easily, your chances of dazing are still pretty low. If they're probably going to get dazed, they're still just probably going to get dazed. But it's pretty good, yeah.
It really sucks that Spell Sunder is out. It's clutch.
Raging Brutality is really, really nice. I figured that was a given.
Dazing Assult is pretty amazing I think. The big thing is that it shuts down foes from hitting back with come and get me. I'm a little worried about banning spell sunder though.
I don't typically argue with the GM. Besides, like I said, I have a hard time visualizing how it even works, so I'm more or less Ok with it. If spell sunder was contingent on the barbarian doing damage to the caster, it would at least make more sense to me.
So let ask another question about Dazing Assault, is it worth having if the only ones that will be affected are the mooks and not the boss (unless the boss rolls a 1 - which I don't like to rely on). It seems to me that my character could easily kill the creatures that would fail their fort save vs Dazing Assault anyway.
Dazing Assault - It's not about the monster making their fort save once. It's about that monster making their fort save 7 times a round. Once you turn on Dazing Assault it is on for the round it applies to all attacks that round (Iteratives and AoO). A CR 12 monster on average has a +15 Fort save. That means you have a 35% chance to daze per hit. So, unless the monster has a huge Fort save (much higher than average Monster Creation Table), that monster will never get to act. P.S. Daze locking the BBEG can cause GM's to pout and throw their dice down long hallways.
Fleshwound - Does not work as great as you would want. You want to negate those huge hits that put big dents in your HP. However, those bigs hits require huge saving throws to negate.
Ghost Rager - pretty sweet, especially if you have big superstition bonuses.
Eater of Magic - You can still roll a 1 on a save, so a re-roll is always nice.
Knockdown/knockback - Knockback is better, especially if you have reach. Knockback is once per round while knockdown is once per rage.
I think with Flesh Wound trying to negate the big hits is the wrong tactic. I want as much of a sure thing as possible, so I would want to negate the small- to medium hits (20-30 hps) every round. I see nothing wrong with having an extra 20-30 hps every round. And with most creatures having some weaker attacks, I think it's simple enough to know when you want to use Flesh Wound before the damage is rolled. Anyway, that's how I envisioned utilizing Flesh Wound.
Even at lvl 20 Dazing Assault will still work better than 5% of the time. A Great Wyrm Red Dragon (CR22) has a Fort save of +25 which leaves you with a 25% chance of dazing per hit. That's pure win in my book.
The big problem with Dazing Assault is that it's a feat and D'arandriel needs to replace a rage power. And the hole is probably at level 6 and your replacement requires 11 BAB.
The GM is letting me take any feat or rage power for which I currently qualify as a level 12 barbarian to replace Spell Sunder.
I think with Flesh Wound trying to negate the big hits is the wrong tactic. I want as much of a sure thing as possible, so I would want to negate the small- to medium hits (20-30 hps) every round. I see nothing wrong with having an extra 20-30 hps every round. And with most creatures having some weaker attacks, I think it's simple enough to know when you want to use Flesh Wound before the damage is rolled. Anyway, that's how I envisioned utilizing Flesh Wound.
I agree with you that the better strategy is to try and negate hits you know you can negate.
But it's once per rage not round, unless you have gained rage cycling earlier than 17. At once per rage it doesn't make sense grabbing until you can rage cycle. Dazing assault on the other hand negates ALL damage if you land a daze and you can use it every round.
My go to defense against hp loss for barbarians is moderate fortification, DR, and a ring of blinking. Between those three you don't really need an AC.
I think with Flesh Wound trying to negate the big hits is the wrong tactic. I want as much of a sure thing as possible, so I would want to negate the small- to medium hits (20-30 hps) every round. I see nothing wrong with having an extra 20-30 hps every round. And with most creatures having some weaker attacks, I think it's simple enough to know when you want to use Flesh Wound before the damage is rolled. Anyway, that's how I envisioned utilizing Flesh Wound.I agree with you that the better strategy is to try and negate hits you know you can negate.
But it's once per rage not round, unless you have gained rage cycling earlier than 17. At once per rage it doesn't make sense grabbing until you can rage cycle. Dazing assault on the other hand negates ALL damage if you land a daze and you can use it every round.
My go to defense against hp loss for barbarians is moderate fortification, DR, and a ring of blinking. Between those three you don't really need an AC.
I should have probably painted a clearer picture. Yes, I have rage cycling via cord of stubborn resolve.
Love the ring of blinking...don't know why I never saw this.
Feat. Right. And a good one.
Raging Vitality should be enough to prevent Sudden Barbarian Death Syndrome. A handful of d6 isn't going to save you if you're in real trouble. Flesh Wound would actually work out better frequently.
Feat. Right. And a good one.
Raging Vitality should be enough to prevent Sudden Barbarian Death Syndrome. A handful of d6 isn't going to save you if you're in real trouble. Flesh Wound would actually work out better frequently.
Have Raging Vitality. I really did narrow down my list to Flesh Wound, Ghost Rager and Dazing Assault for a reason.
Just curious, what's so OP about Spell Sunder that some DMs are banning it?
It looks to me like a standard action to remove a spell from himself or a target. The DC seems ridiculously easy, practically an auto-success most of the time so I could see wanting the DC to be a little higher. But other than that, any barbarian with this ability is going to be making 2 or 3 attacks every round and dishing out lots of damage, giving that up to sunder a spell (and not any spell, just ongoing spells, so it doesn't work on any spell with a duration of Instantaneous) doesn't seem too OP.
So maybe I'm missing something? Is it a combo with other feats or abilities that breaks it?
Spell Sunder + Str Surge + Rage cycling = 1 auto-dispell per round. The barbarian can actually dispell spell effects better than a wizard can. Some GM's take affront to that.
Fair enough. Once per round does seem a lot. But he won't be attacking. Is it so bad to take the barbarian effectively out of the fight and turn him into a spell-breaking-bot (and still not every spell is sunderable)?
I still chuckle when someone calls CAGM Come At Me Bro.
It doesn't help matters that the Gunzerker in Borderlands 2 has a power called Come At Me Bro that is basically the same thing (draws aggro, gives him mo' damage).
OT: I kinda like Witch Hunter. It's basically a free damage boost vs everything at later levels, since it works on things with spell-like abilities as well.
Yeah, Spell Sunder can be performed as part of a regular sunder, which can be performed in place of a regular melee attack. Which with Greater Beast Totem and the ability to rage cycle means the barbarian is charge pouncing-full attacking-spell sundering every round.
Yeah, Spell Sunder can be performed as part of a regular sunder, which can be performed in place of a regular melee attack. Which with Greater Beast Totem and the ability to rage cycle means the barbarian is charge pouncing-full attacking-spell sundering every round.
Yeah...like I said, the GM is not thrilled with Spell Sunder.
Yeah, Spell Sunder can be performed as part of a regular sunder, which can be performed in place of a regular melee attack. Which with Greater Beast Totem and the ability to rage cycle means the barbarian is charge pouncing-full attacking-spell sundering every round.Yeah...like I said, the GM is not thrilled with Spell Sunder.
Why, because a martial character finally got something cool? Because now you just knock off the buffs of god wizard and he panics?
Finally they give a martial character a nice trick that isn't damage, and now somebody takes it away.
So limit Spell Sunder. Make it like a lot of other class abilities and only allow it to be used 3 + Primary Ability mod times per day.
I know that it's not exactly canon, but I view a Barbarian's rage as a semi-mystical battle state, where he actually has heightened awareness of his surroundings and is focused on dealing death; for anyone that's read the Sword of Truth series, imagine how they describe Richard when he is in his "dance with death" state, and to me that's rage.
A barbarian who is within that state and who has Spell Sunder can actually 'see' the mystical structure of the spells on the target, and can focus his rage to 'attack' them.
So limit Spell Sunder. Make it like a lot of other class abilities and only allow it to be used 3 + Primary Ability mod times per day.
I know that it's not exactly canon, but I view a Barbarian's rage as a semi-mystical battle state, where he actually has heightened awareness of his surroundings and is focused on dealing death; for anyone that's read the Sword of Truth series, imagine how they describe Richard when he is in his "dance with death" state, and to me that's rage.
A barbarian who is within that state and who has Spell Sunder can actually 'see' the mystical structure of the spells on the target, and can focus his rage to 'attack' them.
Well, the idea was that it was supposed to be limited to once per rage...but then we got around the whole fatigue thing to reenter rage, and it was on like Donkey Kong.
So limit Spell Sunder. Make it like a lot of other class abilities and only allow it to be used 3 + Primary Ability mod times per day.
I know that it's not exactly canon, but I view a Barbarian's rage as a semi-mystical battle state, where he actually has heightened awareness of his surroundings and is focused on dealing death; for anyone that's read the Sword of Truth series, imagine how they describe Richard when he is in his "dance with death" state, and to me that's rage.
A barbarian who is within that state and who has Spell Sunder can actually 'see' the mystical structure of the spells on the target, and can focus his rage to 'attack' them.
Definitely not canon. Call me crazy and unimaginative, but Conan is the first thing I think of when I think barbarian.
I really think Spell Sunder should work more like the rogue talent Dispelling Attack - if the barbarian damages the opponent, then the spell sunder should go into effect.
Its already powerful. No need to add damage to it. Its a sunder attempt anyway, not directed towards people all the time. If its okay to be so angry you can punch a ghost, its okay to be so angry you smash spells.
Conan is definitely a type of barbarian. Probably not the type I'd envision as having Spell Sunder, though. I like extending the stereotype of classes to an extent.