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I need some advice on my character grapple build for PFS.
Due to RP and ideal reasons, I decided not to go with a monk build. Instead I'm thinking of using the build below.
Currently this is what I come up with.
Race: Aasimar Angelblooded (RP reasons)
Alternate Racial Traits: Scion of Humanity & Truespeaker
Traits: Heirloom Weapon (Cestus) + 2 to Grapple CMB, Bred for War (via adopted)
Lv 12 Class break down:
8 Barbarian (Brutal Pugilist) - Bonues to CMB/CMD and Rage
2 Samurai (Sword Saint, Order of the Penitent) - Able to tied someone up bypassing the pinned action.
1 Fighter (Unarmed Fighter) - Improved Unarmed Strike, needed for Improved Grapple
1 Inquisitor (Spellbreaker, Growth Domain) - Swift action Enlarge Person
Ability Scores (After Racial):
STR: 16 DEX: 14 CON: 14 INT: 10 WIS: 14 CHA: 12
Lv break down (advice needed):
Lv 1: 1 Bar, - Improve Initiative
Lv 2: 1 Bar, 1 Fighter - Improved Unarmed Strike, Snapping Turtle Style
Lv 3: 1 Bar, 1 Fighter, 1 Inquisitor - Improved Grapple <--- Character starts at this lv, due to GM credit.
Lv 4: 1 Bar, 1 Fighter, 1 Inquisitor, 1 Samurai - 1 point into Str
Lv 5: 1 Bar, 1 Fighter, 1 Inquisitor, 2 Samurai - Snapping Turtle Clutch
Lv 6: 2 Bar, 1 Fighter, 1 Inquisitor, 2 Samurai - Strength Surge (Rage Power)
Lv 7: 3 Bar, 1 Fighter, 1 Inquisitor, 2 Samurai - Greater Grapple
Lv 8: 4 Bar, 1 Fighter, 1 Inquisitor, 2 Samurai - Animal Fury (Rage Power), 2 points total into Str
Lv 9: 5 Bar, 1 Fighter, 1 Inquisitor, 2 Samurai - Hamatula Strike
Lv 10: 6 Bar, 1 Fighter, 1 Inquisitor, 2 Samurai - ??? (Rage Power)
Lv 11: 7 Bar, 1 Fighter, 1 Inquisitor, 2 Samurai - Shatter Defenses
Any advice on the above build is appreciated.
Edited: Taking out Dazzling Display tree, for Hamatula Strike
Hmmmm.... Hamatula strike. This is a feat that allows you a free grapple roll when you successfully hit with a piercing weapon (such as a cestus perhaps?) If successful, you IMPALE the target with your weapon and you both gain the grappled condition. From what I can tell, the only difference from a regular grapple is that there are rules for using two handed weapons and such for damage during the grapple. So this could be easily used to both cause damage and quickly transition into your grapples.
....What? Ok, maybe it is not perfect for the whole 'bringing them in alive' thing for your order if you punch through your prisoners. I can't think of everything.
Just be aware that some might question if impalement might be the best option for an Order that "must be merciful to wrongdoers and show unfettered fairness whenever he passes judgment." Technically, the rules make little difference damagewise between simply punching him with your weapon and impaling him with it.
Just call it 'tough love.' It sounds funny enough to make an interesting character.
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Bruno speak plainly to brother grappler--simplify and focus your build. Go Brutal Pugilist with Unarmed Fighter dip.
Your stat build is slightly off, your array should be:
STR: 16 DEX: 14 CON: 14 INT: 10 WIS: 14 CHA: 10 or WIS: 12 CHA: 12
You're intentionally treading MAD territory, but Bruno assume you know that.
Dump the 2 levels of Samurai, especially if you're only getting it for the tie up ability. If you are grappling someone and try for a tie up without out pinning, that's a -10 penalty. But wait, you're the controlling grappler, so you gain +5 to your CMB and lower penalty to -5. But wait, your opponent suffers a -4 DEX penalty and a subsequent -2 to their CMD from the grappled condition, in effect lowering the penalty -3. But wait, you have +3 CMB from your Heirloom Weapon and Bred for War traits...
Dump the 1 level of Inquisitor. While a swift action Enlarge is nice, giving a wand to party member or quaffing a 50 gp potion with a standard action is better than losing 1 BAB and a level of Barbarian abilities.
Dump Hamatula Stike. At that level you will want the Final Embrace Feat (qualified for via Anaconda's Coils item)
Progression to L9:
L1 1 Barb - Improved Initiative
L2 1 Barb, 1 Fighter - Improved Unarmed Strike, Snapping Turtle Style
L3 2 Barb, 1 Fighter - Improved Grapple, Rage Power: Strength Surge
When you start your grappling career:
+11 Grapple CMB (+13 Raging, +15 Strength Surge)
L4 3 Barb, 1 Fighter - 1 point into STR
L5 4 Barb, 1 Fighter - Snapping Turtle Clutch, Rage Power: Animal Fury, Pit Fighter: +1 CMB Grapple
Midway through grappling career:
+15 Grapple CMB (+17 Raging, +21 Strength Surge). Additional +2 if Animal Fury Bite lands)
L6 5 Barb, 1 Fighter
L7 6 Barb, 1 Fighter - Greater Grapple, Rage Power: Superstition
L8 6 Barb, 2 Fighter - Buy Anaconda's Coils, you now qualify for Final Embrace
L9 7 Barb, 2 Fighter - Rapid Grappler
GMs will now hate you. You can make 3 grapple checks a turn. Thanks to Final Embrace you can Grab creatures on a successful unarmed strike (also you get another +4 grapple CMB because of Grab). Thanks to Anaconda's coils, you do constrict damage with every successful check.
+29 Grapple CMB (+31 Raging, +38 Strength Surge). Additional +2 if Animal Fury Bite lands.
If you're controlling a grapple, a typical Grapple check would look like:
Animal Fury Bite +16 (1d4+3)
+38 CMB (+31 Raging CMB +5 Controlling +2 Animal Fury)
Constrict (1d6+7)
And that CMB is before factoring any magical cestus bonus, a Dusty Rose Ioun Stone slotted into a Wayfinder, Brawling enchanted armor or any relevant buffs.
Bruno's concern: Bruno would dump Improved Initiative and take Toughness instead because as a Barb, you'll probably have bad AC and you're always in the foe's face. Speaking of AC, not sure how practical Turtle Style will be if you can't pump AC to decent levels.
Hope that helps
Bruno, I pretty much click to read anything you have written on Grappling. Is there any build or multiclass option that in your opinion would include or be based around the Tetori archetype for Monks?
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For PFS play, Bruno think the ideal opt out points are after 8 or 9 levels of Tetori/Qiggong.
Level 7 earns you a Qiggong swap out (Barkskin is recommended).
Level 8 scores you the Grab ability.
Level 9 gets you the must-have Inescapable Grasp.
Brutal Pugilist is great combo for an ex-Monk (Rage + Strength Surge are fantastic). Lore Warden is good as well if you need more feats.
As always, Bruno suggest to all grapplers a Cracked Vibrant Purple Prism Ioun Stone (merely 2000 gp) with True Strike loaded in it via cheap scrolls and the friendly casters in your party. Last game, Bruno used his to guarantee pin on Sea Serpent so party could kill it and save the swallowed archer.
For non-PFS play, especially high levels (12+), Bruno cannot speak with much authority...yet.
Is there any way to incorporate stuff like lassos or bolas, or would that require too many feats?
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Vamptastic, you would be getting into feat-heavy territory best served by a pure Lore Warden.
The Bola is interesting for the ranged trip but the CMB would be penalized per ranged increment, meaning investment in enchanting the bola for distance and then the related trip feat tax. A Lore Warden could pull it off...and it could be pretty cool to see in action.
Now Bruno want a Bola Throwing Trip Warden.
Vamptastic want a Batman Class.
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*Jaw drops.... wow... THANK YOU Bruno!
Never did see this combo.... it looks really good!
Please, help me get over some issues...
1) The 2 levels of Samurai is not just for the tie up ability, but also the for the resolve ability and diplo.
Since I am going to be running around with pretty low will saves, I thought a more rounded build with the ability to stay on her feet helps. Also Samurai is full BAB so I don't lose out much...
Is this really not a good ideal? Cos... I was thinking of being able to tie up people in 1 turn at lv 4-5... would be kinda of useful... and there are RP considerations (Character is a "Marriage Broker", who wants to get enemy NPCs married... :D .... so tieing them up helps to keep them down, while I drown them out with potential marriage options... *cue evil laugh. )
Also if I am dropping Inquisitor, Samurai gives me Diplomacy without needing to get a trait for it... Marriage Broker... Intimidate and Diplo are both a must. :D
2) Following the above build, won't it be better to take 1 level of Bar at lv 8? And then take a lv of Fighter at lv 9, instead? So I can make use of the extra feat from fighter to take up Final Embrace straight away?
3) I can totally see why you suggest dropping inquisitor levels. Getting Enlarged Person is not too hard with the right items. The Cracked Vibrant Purple Prism Ioun Stone is PERFECT.... you can load True Strikes and even Enlarge Person in a pinch into it for (IF you really need it) situations... Thanks!
4) Finally, you mention that Turtle Style may not be good... so what other style should I switch to instead? And should I swap Snapping Turtle Clutch for say... Dazzling Display instead?
Just tossing in another random thing I found while going through the wondrous items: Armbands of the brawler. It gives a +1 competence bonus to grapple checks, and it only costs 500 gp. Not sure if that is entirely the item slot (especially at the point where you can by it as an afterthought), but I just thought I'd throw it out there.
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When Bruno make character, I ask Bruno, "Bruno, what do you in combat? Now, what do you do out of combat?" Then Bruno build character. Now that Bruno know more about your goals for character, Bruno have alternate approach.
In combat you grapple with your hands, out of combat you grapple with your words. Bruno present:
Secane, Barbaric Marriage Broker
STR: 16 DEX: 14 CON: 14 INT: 12 WIS: 14 CHA: 9
Charisma 9?! Bruno! What are you doing? Did you grapple on wrong side of the bed this morning?!
No, Bruno grapple on right side of bed!
L1 1 Barb - Improved Initiative (Bruno still say Toughness...let dum dum fast bad guys move TOWARDS your grappling embrace)
L2 1 Barb, 1 Fighter - Improved Unarmed Strike, Snapping Turtle Style
L3 2 Barb, 1 Fighter - Improved Grapple, Rage Power: Strength Surge
Right now, you not best talker because of CHA...but you are soon to be a wise marriage broker...
L4 2 Barb, 1 Fighter, 1 Inq - 1 point into STR
You choose Infiltrator Archetype (add WIS on top of CHA to Bluff and Diplomacy). You choose Conversion Inquisition (use WIS mod instead of CHA mod for base bonus for Bluff, Diplo and Intimidate).
So, you are doubling up WIS for Bluff and Diplo! What a sassy Marriage Broker! And with 12 Int, you'll eke out 1 more skill point to spend per level.
L5 3 Barb, 1 Fighter, 1 Inq - Snapping Turtle Clutch, Pit Fighter: +1 CMB Grapple
L6 4 Barb, 1 Fighter, 1 Inq - Rage Power: Animal Fury
L7 5 Barb, 1 Fighter, 1 Inq - Greater Grapple
L8 5 Barb, 2 Fighter, 1 Inq - Buy Anaconda's Coils, get Final Embrace, +1 STR
L9 6 Barb, 2 Fighter, 1 Inq - OPEN FEAT SLOT (Rapid Grappler is pushed back L11 Feat due to BAB restrictions), Rage Power: Superstition, Pit Fighter:+1 CMD Grapple
(I also assume you pick up a Headband of +2 WIS at some point to leverage your Inquisitor WIS advantage.)
Skills at L9 if you choose +1 Skill Point as favored bonus at every Barb Level:
Bluff +10 (1 rank), Diplomacy +17 (8 ranks), Intimidate +14 (8 ranks), Linguistics +12 (9 ranks for 18 languages in addition to starting languages), Perception +15 (9 ranks), Sense Motive +16 (8 ranks), Acrobatics +8 (3 points invested simply for bonuses to Fight Defensively/Total Defense) and 3 floating points as you see fit.
Oh, and you're +28 CMB to Grapple before magic items and buffs.
So, you're a bad ass grappler in combat and a very convincing marriage broker outside of it.
Other Thoughts:
TYING UP: The order of the penitent ability is still part a regular grapple check action, it does not accelerate the tempo of grappling--it only eliminates the -10 penalty for tying up without a pin...but as I showed earlier, that bonus is pretty much a non-issue for you.
AC: As an experienced player, you'll be able to leverage Turtle Style via smart purchases and tactical thinking in combat. I would suggest keeping it in your build and realize it will trigger more on mook attack misses and BBEG iterative attack misses rather than the BBEG's primary attack. Turtle Style is a key to increasing the grappling action economy in your favor.
LATE: It is really late and Bruno must grapple sheep jumping over his bed. Hopefully Bruno no make egregious mistake.
Grapple on, marriage broker!
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Just tossing in another random thing I found while going through the wondrous items: Armbands of the brawler. It gives a +1 competence bonus to grapple checks, and it only costs 500 gp. Not sure if that is entirely the item slot (especially at the point where you can by it as an afterthought), but I just thought I'd throw it out there.
Bruno always recommend that to new Grapplers. After purchasing 2PP CLW wand and 2PP Mage Armor wand, Bruno suggest that as third 2PP purchase before banking 16 PP for inevitable Raise Dead.
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Thanks Bruno! I TOTALLY LOVE it! I will be going with this build.
The combat optimization part of me still screams that I should take growth domain. I may end up with a lv of Cleric instead... Conversation AND Growth! :D
Will have to bang my head over this a little. Though, Inquisitor and Conversation do make me a diplo specialize, which does make more sense then trying to do every thing.
I may switch lv 3 and 4 around, just to get in the "act" of a marriage broker faster, but this is totally what I am going for!
THANK YOU!!! :D
Oh man, there is so much good stuff here. I have been trying to build my idea for Brother Holk of the Order of the New World for a couple of weeks. I was all sorts of lost with various combinations of Barbarian, Monk, Inquisitor, Fighter, etc.
This thread gives me all kinds of foundation points for bring Brother Holk to life!
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Some follow up questions (for grappling in PFS)
1) Since I am not going Tedori (who is able to suppress magical effects/spells on grapples at lv 9), how should I handle effects like Freedom of Movement? Should I get a Dispel Enchantment on my Cestus?
And will it work on enemies with the constant freedom of movement effect? (The dispel)
2) In the same vein, should I get enchantments like Ghost Touch and Phase Locking? For incorporeal and vs teleporting?
3) I'm thinking of dropping Animal Fury for Superstition and progress up the rage tree for Witch hunter and (most importantly) Spell Sunder. Is this a good or bad ideal?
Hoping to over come Superstition's limitation with a wand of lesser restoration. (which inquisitors can use.)
Edit: Oh and my ability scores should have 2 points more to spend. As an Angel-blood Aasimar, I get +2 to Str and Cha. When I drop Cha to 7(9) I get 4 more points to spend. 2 when onto Int, but how should I spend the other 2? Place them in Str?
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1 & 3) Bruno concur with dropping Animal Fury: pick up Superstition at L6 (Barb 4), then pick up Witch Hunter and Spell Sunder at L9 (Barb 6; get SS via Extra Rage power feat). Just be aware that SS is a Sunder attempt and you will provoke AOO as you do not have Improved Sunder.
Dispel enchantment on cestus not worth it: using a scroll (CL 5) means it will fall behind CL of foes as you reach upper tiers and fellow PFS players may not have the spell learned or the slot to spare to cast it for you.
2) For incorporeal foe, Ghost Touch will not allow you to grapple it. Depending on how many enchants you plan on stacking on cestus, it may be more cost effective to just have a back up +1 Cold Iron Ghost Touch Great Sword.
For teleporting foe, if it is a spell or SLA they will have to beat your 10+spell level+your ungodly CMB with a concentration check...which is not going to happen. For those with Supernatural-, item-based- or contingency-based teleportation, phase-locking is an expensive solution (+2 enchant) to rare, but irritating, occurrence. If you can spare the gold, it is an option, but as this is PFS you may not have GP to spare until L9+. Bruno grapples them any way as 1) it makes them easier to hit for party members 2) if they using teleport ability, they are not using other abilities to hurt party (or Bruno).
4) Stat preferences for your build: STR > CON > WIS > DEX > INT > CHA
Enchanting Cold Iron is not cheap. A +1 Ghost Touch Cold Iron Greatsword will run you 10,400gp. That buys you 10 Elixirs of Spirit Sight. And that's what I'd have on hand for incorporeal and invisible foes.
As for grappling the incorporeal, it's not often that you'd actually want to, since they tend to have nasty effects like Strength damage.
That's also the problem with hyper-specializing. There are just some things that you won't want to grapple (like, say, a Succubus). You'll want to have some ways to make yourself useful in those situations.
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Thanks for the reply Brother Bruno.
Going with superstition then.
Since ghost touch makes your weapon (example, Cestus) corporal to incorporeal creatures, why can't it be used for grappling? (Unless grappling assumes you use your whole body and needs like EVERYTHING on you to be ghost touched to grapple an incorporeal creature.
On Weapon: For my Cestus, what enchantments would you recommend for it?
On Armour: Brawling is a must some time down the line. But what should the base armour be? Elven Chainmail? For max armor? And how much should I just focus on things like Ring of Protection? (Or any other examples of AC+ items that add to CMD)
I think I will invest in a reach weapon for Spell Sunder. Hit at range, then move in to grapple. Not as easy as a Tetori's monk's inescapable grapple, but oh well.
(!) Btw, I did consider going Tetori Monk (for better saves and CMD), once I realize that 1 level of Inquisitor is all I needed for Diplo.
After some thought, I decided not to. Tetori monk is just so common and "expected" for a grappler build. While a 6-foot tall cross-dresser RAGING is something much more memorable. :D
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Grappling an Incorporeal Creature
Outside of PFS, you may be able to convince a GM to house rule that the Ghost Touch ability would allow you to grapple an incorporeal if you have GT on an Amulet of Mighty Fists or the like.
In PFS, by RAW, "incorporeal creatures cannot make trip or grapple attacks, nor can they be tripped or grappled." There is no exemption clause stating otherwise. This means only specific abilities or spells that overrule this allow an incorporeal creature to be grappled (like a Tetori's L17 ability).
Could you argue that you should be allowed to grapple an incorporeal? Possibly, but it would be a waste of time as 1) RAW is against you and 2) after a GM has watched you handily grapple 95% of the monsters in the scenario, they are would not be inclined in any way to let you grapple something that would be a borderline case as is.
Weapon Enchant/Armor Enchant
Bruno know Redward IRL and he's bettter at weapon/armor stuff than Bruno. Offhand thoughts:
Weapon--
+1 then Furious then Vicious (or +1 then holy)
Armor--
Mithral Chain Shirt is cheaper by 4K than Elven Chainmail (it's only 1 AC less). You will find you will probably gold-starved and will have to make the call yourself if you can spare 4K.
Items--
Dusty Rose Ioun Stone slotted into a Wayfinder (+2 insight CMB/CMD). This bonus does not stack with your Pit Fighter class bonus, but will bolster your other non-grappling maneuvers. Also, you will need to own the source book (Seeker of Secrets).
Pauldons of the Serpent is a nice item that boosts some of your CMDs and boosts your AC against AOOs when moving through threatened squares (a nice combo when you have turtle style up and intentionally trigger AOOs to get a grapple in before your actual grapple).
+1 Ring of Protection, +1 Amulet of Natural Armor, etc: cheap minor boosts you should invest in.
At this point, Bruno have no more advice. Bruno tap out. :)
heirloom cestus is a trap.
Nor would it do what you want it to do:
Disarm, sunder, and trip are normally the only kinds of combat maneuvers in which you’re actually using a weapon to perform the maneuver, and therefore the weapon’s bonuses apply to the roll. (may or may not include APG maneuvers)
So you can't get +2 to Grapple with the Cestus. Furthermore, the heirloom weapon is non-masterwork, and your bonus only applies to that specific non-masterwork weapon. So you can't enchant it, and any enchanted versions of the weapon won't benefit from your heirloom weapon bonus. Avoid Heirloom Weapon.
The only exception I know of is the Dan Bong, but even that only gives you a static +2 bonus. I doubt you'd get any other bonus to Grapple through enchants on it. Still a superior choice to the Cestus*.
For armor, you've got options:
Mithral Chain shirt 1100gp +4 AC, Max Dex +4, Armor Check 0
Elven Chain 5150gp, +6 AC, Max Dex +4, Armor Check -2
Mithral Breastplate 4200gp, +6 AC, Max Dex +5, Armor Check -1
I'd go Breastplate, although, as Bruno said, you will be gold-starved, and AC shouldn't be a priority since you'll be spending most of your career with the Grappled condition. Whatever you get, slap Brawling on it ASAP.
*As long as your judge applies common sense and doesn't penalize you for not having a free hand. In that case, the Dan Bong actually makes you worse at grappling, albeit less so than other weapons.
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Technically, you can cast the Masterwork Transformation spell on the cestus, making it eligible for enchanting.
Bruno did some research on Cestus used in Grapple and that could possibly fall under GM fiat (no need to rehash here, but there would be major table variation, most likely not in your favor). Long story short: At worst, you make Grapple checks without cestus bonus to CMB BUT use cestus to do damage (which would allow bonuses to damage from enchants).
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My head GM, ruled that bonuses from a Cestus/gauntlet/spiked gauntlet is applicable to Grapples. (Ruling is that you use you hands to grapple and Cestus can be used to deal unarmed attacks, so therefore its bonuses are applicable to the grapple.)
You hands are free when using a Cestus (allowing you to wield or carry items in that hand), so no -4 to grapple.
And as Bruno stated above, I can get it enchanted with Masterwork Transformation (which is PFS legal.)
Dusty Rose Ioun Stone - This is really great! But with this bonuses... a total of +3 to CMD and +2 to CMB, won't this make the Brutal Pugilist totally redundant?
The only true benefit you gain from playing a Brutal Pugilist is the brawling enchantment to armor, higher hp and the fact that you can still beat the crap out of anyone via a great axe or a pole arm. (and Furious!)
Would it better to just go Tetori monk instead??? (Swift action true strike via qigong, feats, inescapable grapple.)
Pauldrons of the Serpent is very nice for me to avoid npcs breaking my grapple, but given that Cloak of Resistance uses the same slot.... which one is more important?
As for Mithral Breastplate, the ruling I got on it is that it is still a medium armor as far as armor enchantments are concern as, only issues like weight is considered light. Elven Chain is considered light in ALL situations, even proficiencies, so I can use that instead... will have to depend on how much gold I have.
Reason to get a some what decent armor is to make use of it to gain grapple via Snapping Turtle style on miss attacks.
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The Dusty Rose Ioun Stone would grant you +1 Insight to AC and +2 Insight to CMB/CMD (not +3 CMD as the insight bonuses wouldn't stack). A slotted stone would obviate the Pitfighter bonus as they are both insight bonuses. Pitfighter bonuses to a specific maneuver CMB or CMD is nice to have until you can afford the stone or an effect nullifies magic.
Pauldrons of the Serpent vs Cloak of Resistance is a judgment call to be made by you. You'll have to eyeball your CMD vs the general state of your saves. On one hand, you'll the have superstition rage power, +2 to Will when raging and a 14 WIS. On the other hand, your CMD will be very high and you'll have the strength surge power to to help stuff a huge monster's attempt to break free.
The Qiggong True Strike is a spell-like ability and therefore a standard action to use.
Finally, Tetori vs. Barbarian: Tetori is much less forgiving to multiclassing as it gains certain feats as a result of class levels not BAB. If you went Tetori, you would have to go Tetori X/Inq 1. The Tetori is hyper-specialized as a grappler, so you would lose the robustness of options the barbarian gives you.
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I'm sticking with the Bar build you gave...... just played #1-43 The Pallid Plague (1-7)... There are SOME THINGS... that you DO NOT want to grapple... :S
My Barbaric Marriage Broker, worshipper of Shelyn, loves her Glaive-guisarme now... reach attack!
Going to buy a MW Kusarigama some where down the line to make use of reach tripping.
Thanks again for all the advice!