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It's been bugging me for a little time now playing an Alchemist in Society and in general pathfinder play with the Discovery for the Alchemist called Fast Bombs which allows the alchemist to throw multiple bombs in a single round. It reads as follows.
Fast bombs: An alchemist with this discovery can
quickly create enough bombs to throw more than one
in a single round. The alchemist can prepare and throw
additional bombs as a full-round action if his base
attack bonus is high enough to grant him additional
attacks. This functions just like a full-attack with a
ranged weapon. An alchemist must be at least 8th level
before selecting this discovery.
Alchemist's don't gain their 6th BAB and second attack until they hit 8th level and the discovery has been limited to 8th level or higher characters. However there are a number of situations where alchemists could be able to make an additional attack if they had the discovery prior to 8th levels, most commonly Haste for Wizards at 5th level, Sorcerer's at 6th or Cleric's Blessing of Fervor at 5th level.
Often playing an alchemist while you have other weapons at your disposal that you can use and that benefit from those above I often find myself feeling almost as if it's useless to even be given the buff as if you are a bomb focused alchemist a lot of the feats which may increase your damage from other ranged sources don't apply to bombs and without the Discovery you can't make the addition attack. Mean while nearly all of the other classes get to benefit from the spell.
I understand that making the prerequisite be level 8 so that it's always useful and people don't take it at a lower level and feel like they can't use it or take it for newer people and having them think it allows them an extra attack before they actually can.
All being said has anyone else felt the same way as an alchemist or feels there is a need to either change the required level or have an addition to the rules for Haste and other spells like it or are things fine the way they are?
All being said has anyone else felt the same way as an alchemist or feels there is a need to either change the required level or have an addition to the rules for Haste and other spells like it or are things fine the way they are?
I think it is fine the way it is. Fast Bombs makes the alchemist an excredibly efficient blaster. I think it becomes too strong to allow multiple bombs earlier. If you lower the requirement, you'd get extra bombs earlier through rapid shot (+ haste at lvl 7, or earlier cast by others).
You could also get haste as a potion as early as level 3, possibly 2 and combined with rapid shot, you could start chucking 3 bombs a round by then or 4 at the latest for alchemical allocation, which is IMO way to early for that kind of damage. Your number of bombs aside, you would be looking at 2d6 +int X3 in a spash touch attack.
True you cannot gain benifits from haste and such before level 8 but I figure its ok given the alternative.
The key sentance in the rules is: 'This functions just like a full-attack with a ranged weapon'
You can throw 2 bombs with two weapon fighting since they are thrown weapons, or you could use rapid shot to throw two around, or both to throw 3 a round. As a human you could throw 3 bombs as early as 3rd level.
Drawing the components of, creating, and throwing a bomb requires a standard action that provokes an attack of opportunity.
An alchemist with this discovery can quickly create enough bombs to throw more than one in a single round. The alchemist can prepare and throw additional bombs as a full-round action if his base attack bonus is high enough to grant him additional attacks. This functions just like a full-attack with a ranged weapon.
You need the discovery to be able to chuck more than 1 a round :(
If not you could do 4 a round! TWF, rapid shot and haste.|
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I wasn't meaning as to reduce it that far, down to appropriate levels for when you get haste yourself as an alchemist or when others gain access to like 6th was what i was more thinking as an appropriate level though i do see your point with the using a lot of them.
An alternate question thats come up from reading this is prior to 8th level and multiple BAB attacks, could as a full round action a grenadier with the Alchemical Weapon class feature shoot an arrow that has a bomb on it and use rapidshot etc to fire a second shot?
This is not an underpowered class by any means. There are more options at every level than I already know what to do with, I don't see this limit on bombs as a problem. Additionally, I have seen these guys at high levels with fast bombs turn boss fights into jokes. I am not there, but I am not looking forward to the day my character stops being powerful and starts being boring. From what I have seen in another players fast bombs, that is a step in the so good it is boring path.
Putting it at such a late level is actually a hidden service: Thinking of your alchemist as a "blaster" is a mistake that will lead you down the path of insufficient resources and shattered dreams.
Repent, ye misguided lad! Behold the truth and justice of the debuff-focused bomber who cares not for the quantity of his bounty but for the quality of his impairments, and whom seldom must be the first to beseech his comrades in arms that perchance they might consent to postpone their current travails for a new day!
kapow - The Alchemist is plenty powerful before Fast Bombs and possibly too powerful after Fast Bombs. You should do fine gaining it at 8th level. I'd suggest being a gnome and putting your favored class bonus into getting more bombs, but it sounds like your PC is already in play.
StreamOfTheSky - A debuff based bomber might be great, and I wouldn't mind trying it one day if I get a chance. Please don't imply that a Fast Bombs blaster is a weak choice though. I played this sort of PC in Rise of the Runelords, and it was embarassingly powerful. Dead is a pretty good debuff.
Just because you can throw 7 or 8 bombs per round doesn't mean that you always should. It just gives you the option to take out big threats pretty much instantly when needed. Having other options like feral mutagen can help to conserve bombs or at least make sure you're useful even without them. I think I had 28 bombs per day by the end though, and that's enough for several significant fights.
Yeah, Worldbuilder, I'm almost surprised I didn't have a similar experience. I suspect that the DM handled things differently because:
A) He's a nice guy
B) He might have been concerned that I'd replace the mad bomber with something even worse
Regarding B, honestly I can't think of much worse without resorting to stuff like "Skinsend + Touch Injection = Win" or the somewhat less useful "Frigid Touch + Gentle Repose = Win" (which at least gets stopped by sleep immunity). Such tactics seem a little ridiculous to me and generally result in house rules anyhow.
I've actually been looking into the touch injection combo lately, planning to make it my one per day (2nd level slots are precious) surekill attack modeled after Shining Finger. Except... it's not completely surekill from what I can tell.
The skin separates and hp is halved. Body is there at 0 and helpless, easy to finish off. But...from what I can tell, consciousness transfers to the skin as part of the spell, so killing the body still leaves the skin alive and active for hour/CL, and capable of spell casting if the enemy could (might have to retrieve component pouch, though). Still pretty good, but an enemy caster might still cause some trouble. And you have to time it so that an ally can finish off the body before the foe gets a turn, otherwise he just re-merges and ends up with half hp and a lost turn. Which is still not bad, but kind of disappointing for all the resources and effort you put into it.