So I had a thought the other day of "What if I could cast Prismatic Wall at someone. That'd be hella broken!" I couldn't find any other posts related to this subject so I thought why the hell not and share this.
For obvious reasons Prismatic Wall is probably the best wall in the game for straight up deterring some nasty big bad from getting to your party because if someone did walk through it they would have seven save or essentially be very, very messed up if not vaporized. However, in the spell description it explicitly says "Cannot be cast directly on someone." Well damn, thats just a conundrum now ain't it? Enter the savior of our hour: Arcane Archer.
The Arcane Archer, as some of you may well know, has an ability to imbue a spell into an arrow. There is no restrictions on the spell. Want to shoot someone with an arrow that then covers them in the spell Grease? Cotier! Want to fire Wale of the Banshee at your enemies so you don't blow the ears off of your allies? Fantastic! Want to fire a Fireball through an arrow? Ok thats not as great and a little more circumstantial but damnit you could do it! With a high enough BAB you can enhance the range of most of your close range spells and even, dare I say, cause a Prismatic Wall to appear ON people!
Now how does this work? Well lets get technical here. Prismatic Wall says, specifically that it CANNOT be cast on someone. It doesn't say anything about be cast on an arrow that is promptly shot into someone. Additionally, in the imbue arrow it says that wherever the arrow lands, and arrows land regardless of whether you miss they don't just disappear into the void, the arrow becomes the center of the spell. Ergo, Prismatic Wall appears on Big Bad, Big Bad must now make 7 saves and if he fails the last one he is definto dead. The other ones are just kinda bad (except for the Flesh to Stone its situationally bad for him but most of the time would kill him).
Now, you may be thinking "What if I can't hit the bastard because his AC is retarded?" Well he may be hard to hit, but the ground he is currently occupying isn't. Dirt doesn't dodge, it doesn't wear armor, and for the most part it doesn't really care if you shoot it full of holes. Essentially, don't role a one when firing your big boom aoe doom spell and your fine.
An example of this build, and I think this works best for optimization in early game carrying throughout would be:
Why Dragon Disciple? Because it advances your spell casting class with a good BAB to level ratio, meaning you get a nifty trick that much faster. Basically, you have a higher BAB than normal Sorcerer's and by 20th level you have the spell casting capabilities of a 18th level Sorcerer with an added trick.
The downsides? You are two levels behind normal sorcerers, which puts you three behind normal spell casters. Ouch. Still, it is hella broken at level cap. I know, I know sorcerers and wizards get these "Level 20" capstones, but I really don't care about those when I am playing a sorcerer or Wizard, except when I have the aberrant bloodline because thats really nice.
So, comments, thoughts? Naysayers?
Yeah, I am well aware that a sorcerer specked for dueling is going to pummel this build into the ground (Spell Perfection+ Dispel +Sorcerer=You don't cast spells until I say you do). However, that Sorcerer isn't going to be able to cast Wale of the Banshee at someone in a moments notice.
There is literally nothing in heaven nor on earth that can truly make up for that loss.
In any case, my favorite Imbue Arrow trick is Antimagic Field, but maybe I'm just old-fashioned...
Your only losing two. Both the Dragon Disciple and the Arcane Archer only cost 1 at entry and then again 1 at 5th (and some thereafter) which is why we don't progress past the 4th level in either.
And yes, Antimagic Field is really ridiculous with Imbue Arrow. Forgot to mention that one :)
Ah, wasn't familiar w/ DD's CL progression, misunderstood. Still, 2 levels gone means nothing you do will be stronger than not losing them, pretty much.
If you're willing to lose 2 CL, though, you should just go Eldritch Knight. AA lets you qualify w/ proficiencies, the only pain is not getting into AA until 12 if you wish to not lose a 3rd CL multiclassing. Sorc or Wiz 12 / AA 2 / EK 6.
EDIT: Also, you seem to think any spell can be imbued. It has to be an area spell. Which drastically cuts down on the number of good imbues, as many area spells already have good ranges. I guess the Prismatic Wall to the face trick would still work, though you wouldn't even *get* the spell till near level 20.
Everything is a trade-off. I like multi-classing, but I don't think this is more or less powerful than a normal caster at level 20, you could fill your level 9 spell slots with Prismatic Wall and use the same cast on the ground trick you're talking about.
Not sure about your Wail of the Banshee comment, since you cast spells with Imbue Arrow at their normal rate: "A spell cast in this way uses its standard casting time and the arcane archer can fire the arrow as part of the casting." So, you cast your spells as fast as any other sorcerer.
If you're willing to lose 2 CL, though, you should just go Eldritch Knight. AA lets you qualify w/ proficiencies, the only pain is not getting into AA until 12 if you wish to not lose a 3rd CL multiclassing. Sorc or Wiz 12 / AA 2 / EK 6.
EDIT: Also, you seem to think any spell can be imbued. It has to be an area spell. Which drastically cuts down on the number of good imbues, as many area spells already have good ranges. I guess the Prismatic Wall to the face trick would still work, though you wouldn't even *get* the spell till near level 20.
The reason for not using Eldritch Knight as opposed to Dragon Disciple is because they have to same BAB advancement rate however, Dragon Disciple specifically stacks with Sorcerer levels and/or, if your a wizard, gives added benefits of natural armor, +4 strength, a d12 hit die (Eldritch is d10) and, albeit not as impressive, a breath weapon.
And yes, I can see why my statements alluded to implying any spell instead of just AOE spells. My mistake you are correct on that one.
Stynkk wrote:
Everything is a trade-off. I like multi-classing, but I don't think this is more or less powerful than a normal caster at level 20, you could fill your level 9 spell slots with Prismatic Wall and use the same cast on the ground trick you're talking about.
Not sure about your Wail of the Banshee comment, since you cast spells with Imbue Arrow at their normal rate: "A spell cast in this way uses its standard casting time and the arcane archer can fire the arrow as part of the casting." So, you cast your spells as fast as any other sorcerer.
You can't actually cast a spell of Prismatic Wall ON a person. It says it in the description of the spell itself.
As for Wail of The Banshee it meets all the prerequisites for imbue arrow (AoE and takes a standard action, although imbue arrow doesn't say anything about imbuing an arrow with a spell that takes longer than a standard action to cast, just that you can fire it in the same standard action you cast the spell in.
Loren Pechtel wrote:
You drop your prismatic wall arrow at the guy's feet, the spell goes off and fizzles because he's in the way.
Now, the antimagic shell is another matter.
I am going to be honest, this would be up to DM interpretation. If you want to get super technical, the spell prerequisites for Prismatic Wall is that it cannot be cast ON someone. And, in all fairness you didn't. You cast it on an arrow. The arrow arrived at a destination and the wall, much like a bomb, detonated. Therefore, the spell was not cast with the pre-considered knowledge of a person occupying the spells origin, ergo the wall would essentially "Exist" in the same square that that person happened to be occupying.
If all it took for Prismatic Wall to fizzle was someone occupying the same square as it, I'd have to say that be a really s~%#ty level 9 spell. But regardless, as all grey areas of ruling, run stuff by your DM before you try to break the game.
Many times it's also about WHEN you get to use those spells too!
Modules are built assuming that players have access to certian spells at certain times.... by taking Arcane ARcher or Dragon Disciple you are l pushing back your access to those spells.
So perhaps a DM thought you would have a Death Ward spell in time for the end boss.... and now you don't. Those circumstances could be what changes an encounter from hard to impossible.
Imbue Arrow says nothing about casting the spell on the arrow. So the limitation of Prismatic Wall still apply. Drop the arrow on space that is occupied and the spell is disrupted.
"Imbue Arrow (Sp): At 2nd level, an arcane archer gains the ability to place an area spell upon an arrow. When the arrow is fired, the spell's area is centered where the arrow lands, even if the spell could normally be centered only on the caster. This ability allows the archer to use the bow's range rather than the spell's range. A spell cast in this way uses its standard casting time and the arcane archer can fire the arrow as part of the casting. The arrow must be fired during the round that the casting is completed or the spell is wasted. If the arrow misses, the spell is wasted."
You cast the spell normally but use the range of the bow instead of the range of the spell. This really just means short range or centered on the caster spells can be cast at further distance. So in the case of Prismatic wall it would be the bows range instead of 65 feet a CL of 16 when you get access to this spell.
Also just to point out the EK is Full BAB the DD is 3/4 BAB so not the same BAB. Technically the DD is better with +4 strength. You get +2 to hit and damage. Going EK you would get +1 to hit and +2 Damage (+1 BAB and weapon specialization). The BAB would be better if it got you to 16 BAB for the extra attack though.
There is literally nothing in heaven nor on earth that can truly make up for that loss.
Wish as an at-will componentless SLA?
It's still true if the devs don't go COMPLETELY off the deep end. Malconvoker needed a free +4 Metamagic and a lot of other goods to make a single caster level an OK tradeoff and only for a very narrow build.
Also: Another check mark to my list of classes I've seen people jump on thinking its broken despite not being.
I like the idea, OP, but I believe it does not work by RAW or RAI. Emphasis is mine below.
"Imbue Arrow: At 2nd level, an arcane archer gains the ability to place an area spell upon an arrow. When the arrow is fired, the spell's area is centered where the arrow lands, even if the spell could normally be centered only on the caster. This ability allows the archer to use the bow's range rather than the spell's range. A spell cast in this way uses its standard casting time and the arcane archer can fire the arrow as part of the casting. The arrow must be fired during the round that the casting is completed or the spell is wasted. If the arrow misses, the spell is wasted."
From Prismatic Wall: "A prismatic wall spell cast to materialize in a space occupied by a creature is disrupted, and the spell is wasted."
The argument would go as follows:
1.) By the wording of Imbue Arrow, the area of Prismatic wall is centered where the spell lands.
2.) By the wording of Prismatic Wall, the spell is going to materialize in a space occupied by a creature. ...but can we disrupt the spell?
3.) Because casting and shooting are part of the same action, we sure as hell can disrupt the spell.
Ergo, the casting is disrupted.
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You could make this logic tougher to apply if you managed to cast as one action, and then shoot as part of another action. But this is tricky to do.
You bring up a very valid argument Crosswind. After further examination I have to agree with your assessment.
However, I have this weird nagging thought about the text. the sentence "A spell cast in this way uses its standard casting time and the arcane archer can fire the arrow as part of the casting." This, to me, implies that the spell is inside the arrow having already been "Cast" and just awaiting arrival.
However, on the other side of this argument, and I think the whole text supports this further, the spell has not been FULLY cast as it has yet to complete a crucial component: destination.
Therefore, Prismatic Wall would fizzle at the feet of an enemy. Was a nice thought though!
Still, the Arcane Archer has a few nice things up its sleeves, although the most promising that I can find is Wail of the Banshee.
I did, just now as a matter of fact, discover something very promising though. What we cannot do with Prismatic Wall, we CAN do with Prismatic Sphere. As long as you position the center of the casting properly you can have the walls of the spere appear on subjects. For your convenience I have quote the full description on the spell found in the PFSRD:
This spell functions like prismatic wall, except you conjure up an immobile, opaque globe of shimmering, multicolored light that surrounds you and protects you from all forms of attack. The sphere flashes in all colors of the visible spectrum.
The sphere's blindness effect on creatures with less than 8 HD lasts 2d4 x 10 minutes.
"You can pass into and out of the prismatic sphere and remain near it without harm. When you're inside it, however, the sphere blocks any attempt to project something through the sphere (including spells). Other creatures that attempt to attack you or pass through suffer the effects of each color, one at a time.
Typically, only the upper hemisphere of the globe exists, since you are at the center of the sphere, so the lower half is usually occluded by the floor surface you are standing on.
The colors of the sphere have the same effects as the colors of a prismatic wall.
Prismatic sphere can be made permanent with a permanency spell."
Additionally, in support of this, the restrictions in the text of Prismatic Wall, in regards to the spell being unable to be cast with a creature occupying it's space, state: "A prismatic wall spell cast to materialize in a space occupied by a creature is disrupted, and the spell is wasted."
Therefore, we could imbue an arrow with a Prismatic Sphere and then have it detonate, at a 10ft. distance, on someone.
Could we then, perhaps, have arrows, not just with Prismatic Sphere but with other spells, detonate in mid air? Something to contemplate.
Also, yes voska you are correct on EE. Sorry for misrepresenting that I don't know what I was reading.
Sorry to burst your bubble here, but none of the spells you've mentioned so far work with imbue arrow.
"At 2nd level, an arcane archer gains the ability to place an area spell upon an arrow."
It seems pretty clear to me that an area spell refers to a spell that has "Area: x" somewhere in its description. Prismatic wall, prismatic sphere an wail of the banshee do not.
The only really powerful thing you can do with imbue arrow is probably antimagic field. Although there are some decent cone spells as well (a cone is usually described as "Area: 30ft cone", or something like that, so should be valid).
The prismatic sphere bit sounds legitimate to me. It's a 10 foot radius sphere, so it has an area. You should be able to make it land 5 or 10 feet away from the opponent, effectively trapping him within the prismatic sphere or making him eat the set of effects.
Prismatic sphere says "Effect: 10-ft radius sphere, centered on you".
So by rules as written, I'm pretty sure prismatic sphere is not an area spell, as it doesn't specify an area. You cannot cast it on anything, the effect of the spell is always a sphere centered on you.
Antimagic field is very similar, but the difference is that antimagic field says "Area: 10-ft radius emanation centered on you", so it does specify an area.
I'm guessing this wording is deliberately chosen to be uncommon (rather than it just saying "target: you", "range: personal", "effect: 10-ft radius emanation") so that these spells cannot be used with abilities that modify what you can cast spells on normally. For example, this wording prevents you from casting antimagic field on your animal companion (which would be perfect for a sylvan sorcerer otherwise), even though it is a spell that normally only works on yourself.
Prismatic sphere says "Effect: 10-ft radius sphere, centered on you".
So by rules as written, I'm pretty sure prismatic sphere is not an area spell, as it doesn't specify an area. You cannot cast it on anything, the effect of the spell is always a sphere centered on you.
Antimagic field is very similar, but the difference is that antimagic field says "Area: 10-ft radius emanation centered on you", so it does specify an area.
I'm guessing this wording is deliberately chosen to be uncommon (rather than it just saying "target: you", "range: personal", "effect: 10-ft radius emanation") so that these spells cannot be used with abilities that modify what you can cast spells on normally. For example, this wording prevents you from casting antimagic field on your animal companion (which would be perfect for a sylvan sorcerer otherwise), even though it is a spell that normally only works on yourself.
To be honest, I have no idea what "area spell" means. Your guess/interpretation is pretty reasonable. Arcane Archer is pretty damn awful, so I tend to lean towards an interpretation that allows it to stuff any spell that has some sort of area in there.
Prismatic sphere says "Effect: 10-ft radius sphere, centered on you".
So by rules as written, I'm pretty sure prismatic sphere is not an area spell, as it doesn't specify an area. You cannot cast it on anything, the effect of the spell is always a sphere centered on you.
Antimagic field is very similar, but the difference is that antimagic field says "Area: 10-ft radius emanation centered on you", so it does specify an area.
I'm guessing this wording is deliberately chosen to be uncommon (rather than it just saying "target: you", "range: personal", "effect: 10-ft radius emanation") so that these spells cannot be used with abilities that modify what you can cast spells on normally. For example, this wording prevents you from casting antimagic field on your animal companion (which would be perfect for a sylvan sorcerer otherwise), even though it is a spell that normally only works on yourself.
I'd have to disagree with you here.
Imbue Arrow (Sp): At 2nd level, an arcane archer gains the ability to place an area spell upon an arrow. When the arrow is fired, the spell's area is centered where the arrow lands, even if the spell could normally be centered only on the caster. This ability allows the archer to use the bow's range rather than the spell's range. A spell cast in this way uses its standard casting time and the arcane archer can fire the arrow as part of the casting. The arrow must be fired during the round that the casting is completed or the spell is wasted. If the arrow misses, the spell is wasted
Bold emphasis mine, you specifically point out that the emanation of the prismatic sphere is centered on the caster and the imbue arrow specifically states that the spell can be cast on the arrow which would normally be centered on you (the caster).
So in essence the arrow IS the caster for the prismatic sphere, and the area 10 ft around it would be effected.
I believe area spell means a spell that actually has an "Area" parameter listed. Which would DQ a lot of the choices mentioned, even if they happen to effect an area, due to not having an Area listing.
There is a similar deal with "targeted spells." Pretty much all ray spells have "Effect: Ray", but no target line. So even though you're making an attack roll against a target and all the rules for casting against a specific target apply (ie, needing to see who you're targeting, though I guess weapon-like spells afford you the ability to blindly shoot into the square), by RAW rays are not "targeted spells," which means certain things do not work with them. This throws a lot of people off, including me, at times. (I think rays should be considered targeted spells...)
Is there any actual official erata that can make a ruling on this? Because without this nifty trick I have to agree with Crosswind, Arcane Archers really suck.
Quite frankly, I can see both sides of the argument being valid. There is strong logic to both sides.
With or without the tricks, AA is less powerful than just being a straight caster. And there is never a good reason to take it past level 4, tricks or not. Imbue Arrow is basically *the* one and only draw. It is very awesome to peg someone with an Antimagic Field arrow, though. That alone makes the class worthwhile, if a bit weak.
It's a shame PF fixed Imbue Arrow, it had a LOT more potential for fun/abuse in 3E. Depending on what spells you had access to, since the trick was only useful on a very rare set of spells.
Spoiler:
Those being, area spells with very long cast times. In 3E, Imbue Arrow was ALWAYS a standard action, regardless of the attached spell's cast time. Shooting an arrow into someone's castle and instantly setting up a Guards and Wards inside is just so badass!
@ ub3r_n3rd: I agree with you that the 'radius emanation centered on you' doesn't make prismatic sphere invalid, as antimagic field has more or less the same wording.
What does make prismatic sphere invalid in my opinion is what streamofthesky says as well: it doesn't have an "area" parameter, so it isn't an "area spell".
And yes, arcane archer isn't a terribly good class. I would definitely take a few levels of it in a high level eldritch knight archer build, but probably not more than 3, and not before level 12 or so. So something like 1 ranger/5 wizard/5 eldritch knight/3 arcane archer/5 eldritch knight/1 wizard. That's basically the character you want an arcane archer to be, without all the mediocre class abilities.
I am still just a bit confused, and sorry for berating this point. An area spell is a spell that, in essence, affects an area. Prismatic Wall affects an area, Fireball affects an area, est. Why wouldn't Prismatic Sphere affect an area? I would understand if it affected a SINGLE space but it doesn't, it affects multiple spaces in a predefined area.
Well, I'm not 100% sure, but my thinking is that an area spell is any spell that has an "area" parameter in its description. I'll quote some of the text of antimagic field and prismatic sphere to show what I mean.
CASTING
Casting Time 1 standard action
Components V, S, M/DF (pinch of powdered iron or iron filings)
EFFECT
Range 10 ft.
Area 10-ft.-radius emanation, centered on you
Duration 10 min./level (D)
Saving Throw none; Spell Resistance see text
DESCRIPTION
Stuff
Prismatic Sphere:
School abjuration; Level sorcerer/wizard 9; Domain artifice 9, protection 9, sun 9
CASTING
Components: V
EFFECT
Range 10 ft.
Effect 10-ft.-radius sphere centered on you
DESCRIPTION
Stuff
See what I mean now? Antimagic field has an "area" parameter, prismatic sphere does not. So by my thinking, that makes antimagic field an area spell, and prismatic sphere not an area spell.
Ok that sounds reasonable to me. Good to know. If I would DMing, due to no official errata, I would probably lean more towards Arcane Archer favoritism, however, I can really understand the argument to the opposite and if I was making this class in someone else's game I would make the DM aware of both sides of the argument so that they can make their own decision.
Thanks everyone for all your input! If you have any more ideas please let me know.
