I know you cant use them on a charge. but it seems they do stack.
one is a standard action the other modifies your standard action.
any official ruling?
CLEAVE
Benefit: As a standard action, you can make a single attack at your full base attack bonus against a foe within reach. If you hit, you deal damage normally and can make an additional attack (using your full base attack bonus) against a foe that is adjacent to the first and also within reach. You can only make one additional attack per round with this feat. When you use this feat, you take a –2 penalty to your Armor Class until your next turn.
VITAL STRIKE
Benefit: When you use the attack action, you can make one attack at your highest base attack bonus that deals additional damage. Roll the weapon’s damage dice for the attack twice and add the results together before adding bonuses from Strength, weapon abilities (such as flaming), precision-based damage, and other damage bonuses. These extra weapon damage dice are not multiplied on a critical hit, but are added to the total.
It's still an attack action so I would say yes.
I thought this was answered in an FAQ?
On initial RAW I would say yes, you could. However, based on an FAQ answer, I'm not so certain:
Cleave: Can I take a 5-foot step in the middle of my attempt to use the Cleave feat, to bring another foe within reach?
No. Cleave is a special action and the conditions for that action are checked at the moment you begin your action. At that moment, all of the available targets are checked to make sure they adjacent to each other and within reach. You cannot take a 5-foot step in the middle of the action and check conditions again. If you do not have two targets within reach, adjacent to each other at the start of the attack, you could not even attempt to make an attack using Cleave.
Emphasis mine on that Cleave is a special action. Is it still considered an 'attack action' at that point? Not sure.
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On additional reading, it does not state that Cleave is an attack action; it says that it is a standard action. An attack action is always a standard action; a standard action is not always an attack action. In this instance, based on the definition of Cleave as a special type of standard action, I would have to say that no, you can't stack them.
No you can't use them together.
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I thought this was answered in an FAQ?
On initial RAW I would say yes, you could. However, based on an FAQ answer, I'm not so certain:
Cleave: Can I take a 5-foot step in the middle of my attempt to use the Cleave feat, to bring another foe within reach?
No. Cleave is a special action and the conditions for that action are checked at the moment you begin your action. At that moment, all of the available targets are checked to make sure they adjacent to each other and within reach. You cannot take a 5-foot step in the middle of the action and check conditions again. If you do not have two targets within reach, adjacent to each other at the start of the attack, you could not even attempt to make an attack using Cleave.
Emphasis mine on that Cleave is a special action. Is it still considered an 'attack action' at that point? Not sure.
[edit]
On additional reading, it does not state that Cleave is an attack action; it says that it is a standard action. An attack action is always a standard action; a standard action is not always an attack action. In this instance, based on the definition of Cleave as a special type of standard action, I would have to say that no, you can't stack them.
'Special' action doesn't rule out it being an attack action - it is still obviously that. Unless there's some rule somewhere that states otherwise, I'd still allow it, but if you want an official ruling, you're going to likely have to get it from Paizo.
Vital Strike, Cleave, Spring Attack, Whirlwind Attack, etc all don't stack because Pathfinder hates it when martials try to do anything in combat other than full-attack with Power Attack.
but if you want an official ruling, you're going to likely have to get it from Paizo.
Good news: Paizo responded to your post by making an official ruling and sneakily editing it into your post! I mean, it's either that or you acted like there was no official ruling from Paizo while literally quoting an official ruling from Paizo, but that's just absurd.
Cleave is a special action called a Use Feat action, listed under Miscellaneous Actions on page 189 of the Core Rulebook. Table 8-2 on page 183 states the Use Feat action type varies and that the description of the feat defines its effect. The description of Cleave says it takes a standard action.
Because you have to use a standard action to use the Use Feat action to cleave, you cannot also take a standard action to use the Attack action that the description of Vital Strike specifically calls for. Therefore, both cannot be used in a single turn.
The thing is that an "attack action" is a specific action - the action mentioned in the combat section that is titled "attack".
It's a stupid name that cause a lot of confusion but that's how it is. They should've named in "strike" or something like that instead, IMO.
'Special' action doesn't rule out it being an attack action - it is still obviously that. Unless there's some rule somewhere that states otherwise, I'd still allow it, but if you want an official ruling, you're going to likely have to get it from Paizo.
Untrue. An attack action is a specific type of standard action and is separate from an attack. You can do damage to someone by attacking them with a melee weapon without taking an attack action.
Cleave allows you to attack an opponent; it does not indicate if that is through an attack action but does indicate that it is a special action, which makes it unlikely it is an , attack action. Only if it were doing so via an attack action could you combine it with Vital Strike.
This has been asked and answered before. Jason Bulmahn and others have specifically answered this question. You can search for their official answers and find them easily enough.
There is a difference in game terminology between "attack" and "attack action". For all intents and purposes, "attack action" is a standard action.
If you make a full-round attack, you might make several "attacks" but no "attack actions".
If you make an Attack of Opportunity, you make an "attack" but not an "attack action".
If you charge, you make an "attack" but not an "attack action".
If you Cleave, you make one or two "attacks" but no "attack actions".
Etc.
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To quote the relevant text:
As for Spring Attack, this feat lets you make a single melee attack at any point during a movement; that attack has to be a pure-vanilla attack, basically. You can't fancy it up with things like Cleave or Vital Strike, as those are their own standard actions, basically. If you have all three of those feats, you can do one of the following:
1) Run up to a foe, stab it, and run away, all without provoking an AoO (Spring Attack).
2) Run up to a foe and stab it, and then stab a dude standing next to the guy you just stabbed (Cleave).
3) Run up to a foe and stab it and do extra damage (Vital Strike).A generous GM might allow you to mix and match these feats and even use them all at the same time... but that's not the intent of the rules. These feats exist to give you multiple options, and they each give you specific advantages depending on what you want to do (stab and get out harm's way, stab multiple foes, or stab one foe with a lot of damage).
You should be able to use Vital Strike and get a Cleaving Finish though.
I was going to say this same thing, although it's not very feat efficient since you have to get Cleave to qualify for Cleaving Finish.
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To quote the relevant text:
As for Spring Attack, this feat lets you make a single melee attack at any point during a movement; that attack has to be a pure-vanilla attack, basically. You can't fancy it up with things like Cleave or Vital Strike, as those are their own standard actions, basically. If you have all three of those feats, you can do one of the following:
1) Run up to a foe, stab it, and run away, all without provoking an AoO (Spring Attack).
2) Run up to a foe and stab it, and then stab a dude standing next to the guy you just stabbed (Cleave).
3) Run up to a foe and stab it and do extra damage (Vital Strike).A generous GM might allow you to mix and match these feats and even use them all at the same time... but that's not the intent of the rules. These feats exist to give you multiple options, and they each give you specific advantages depending on what you want to do (stab and get out harm's way, stab multiple foes, or stab one foe with a lot of damage).
Thank you. I stand corrected.
Could someone please tell me what the point of not describing Vital Strike as a separate attack, instead of making it modify an attack? I'm not being argumentative here...but there seems to be no point to it.
"When you use the attack action..." is misleading compared to "As a standard action...".
Well I guess my next question is this: is cleave worth it? i am playing a thd Great axe warrior and my original plan was to walk up then vital strike+cleave. or get surrounded and cleave my way out of the situation. this is my first real THD build so I am very new to the tactics of just a +1 impacting speed great axe.
Could someone please tell me what the point of not describing Vital Strike as a separate attack, instead of making it modify an attack? I'm not being argumentative here...but there seems to be no point to it.
"When you use the attack action..." is misleading compared to "As a standard action...".
If Vital Strike said "as a standard action" then you wouldn't be able to use it with other abilities such as Overhand Chop.
Thank you. I stand corrected.
Could someone please tell me what the point of not describing Vital Strike as a separate attack, instead of making it modify an attack? I'm not being argumentative here...but there seems to be no point to it.
"When you use the attack action..." is misleading compared to "As a standard action...".
My thought\guess is that there are class abilities that specify that you make an attack via an Attack Action (going to capitalize for clarity's sake), and for those specific abilities, you could then couple them Vital Strike.
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If Vital Strike said "as a standard action" then you wouldn't be able to use it with other abilities such as Overhand Chop.Could someone please tell me what the point of not describing Vital Strike as a separate attack, instead of making it modify an attack? I'm not being argumentative here...but there seems to be no point to it.
"When you use the attack action..." is misleading compared to "As a standard action...".
Right now, my guess would be that the official ruling would say you couldn't.
Right now, my guess would be that the official ruling would say you couldn't.If Vital Strike said "as a standard action" then you wouldn't be able to use it with other abilities such as Overhand Chop.Could someone please tell me what the point of not describing Vital Strike as a separate attack, instead of making it modify an attack? I'm not being argumentative here...but there seems to be no point to it.
"When you use the attack action..." is misleading compared to "As a standard action...".
No, Vital Chopping totally works. Overhand Chop requires you to use the attack action (or a charge, but ignore that since VS doesn't work with charges) and Vital Strike says "When you use the attack action..." Like chocolate and peanut butter, they go together very nicely.
Power Attack, Vital Strike, and Overhand Chop if you want to really nasty-up someone's day. Tack on a Cleaving Finish to catch their friend, too.
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Well I guess my next question is this: is cleave worth it? i am playing a thd Great axe warrior and my original plan was to walk up then vital strike+cleave. or get surrounded and cleave my way out of the situation. this is my first real THD build so I am very new to the tactics of just a +1 impacting speed great axe.
Using a greataxe (just a plain one) at first level with cleave is useful. You are doing 1d12 + 1.5xSTR for an average of 12.5 damage for a big bruiser. This will take down many 1HD and some 2HD enemies, so with cleave, given the right positioning, you can take down 2 foes in a single round at first level.
If you are facing a single, tougher foe, then Vital Strike would let you do 2d12 + 1.5xSTR for an average of 19 damage as a big guy which might just be preferable. Options, options.
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Right now, my guess would be that the official ruling would say you couldn't.If Vital Strike said "as a standard action" then you wouldn't be able to use it with other abilities such as Overhand Chop.Could someone please tell me what the point of not describing Vital Strike as a separate attack, instead of making it modify an attack? I'm not being argumentative here...but there seems to be no point to it.
"When you use the attack action..." is misleading compared to "As a standard action...".
No, Vital Chopping totally works. Overhand Chop requires you to use the attack action (or a charge, but ignore that since VS doesn't work with charges) and Vital Strike says "When you use the attack action..." Like chocolate and peanut butter, they go together very nicely.
Power Attack, Vital Strike, and Overhand Chop if you want to really nasty-up someone's day. Tack on a Cleaving Finish to catch their friend, too.
Oh, I agree it should. I'd love the actual logic that prevents cleave and vital strike from combining, rather than semantics...but they don't want them combined, so it's official.
We wouldn't want those wizards whining about how OP the combo is, now would we?
We wouldn't want those wizards whining about how OP the combo is, now would we?
Correct. It's about time that somebody recognized the level of respect that we deserve. You never want a whining wizard. Have you seen what we can do? We can freakin' stop time!
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We wouldn't want those wizards whining about how OP the combo is, now would we?Correct. It's about time that somebody recognized the level of respect that we deserve. You never want a whining wizard. Have you seen what we can do? We can freakin' stop time!
Yeah, and I've played a wizard that loved being able to do that...especially when it looked like a fighter was about to serve him his own liver...raw. :p
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Well I guess my next question is this: is cleave worth it? i am playing a thd Great axe warrior and my original plan was to walk up then vital strike+cleave. or get surrounded and cleave my way out of the situation. this is my first real THD build so I am very new to the tactics of just a +1 impacting speed great axe.Speaking as a mid-level greatsword fighter, Cleave is totally worth it. My GM regularly uses hoards of low hit-die creatures, and with Great Cleave, and decent luck with the initiative dice, I can take out five or six per round; often before they get to swing at me.
This is the one situation where great cleave works...great. If you didn't see such things...it's best avoided like the plague.