So I'm building another Duelist and thematically Lightning Stance would fit really well... But frankly, it stinks as a feat. I have to double move or withdrawl to get concealement. Wind Stance is easier to activate but since it only works on ranged attacks it's also the pits.
So I as these forums, how would you abuse Lighnting Stance? I was looking for a feat that'd let that'd let you make a single attack or something when withdrawing but sadly I haven't seen one... Any Ideas?
I constantly want to use Lightning Stance with my characters but I have yet to find an effective way to use in combat where you actually plan on hitting something. Not even a mobile fighter can make two moves and still hit. I suppose you could Master of Many styles and just get your attacks by running around a target making AoO's but I'm not really certain how to do it with a duelist. Quite frankly I'm hoping this thread comes up with some results.
concealment for 1 round should mean you are still in concealment for your next action. sneak attack?
what about when you use spring attack? technicaly you move twice. wheather or not that counts is another argument thread waiting to happen.
I constantly want to use Lightning Stance with my characters but I have yet to find an effective way to use in combat where you actually plan on hitting something. Not even a mobile fighter can make two moves and still hit. I suppose you could Master of Many styles and just get your attacks by running around a target making AoO's but I'm not really certain how to do it with a duelist. Quite frankly I'm hoping this thread comes up with some results.
That is a thought, a Panther Style user dashing around provoking AoO's while activating it... But that definitely doesn't help a Duelist lol.
I constantly want to use Lightning Stance with my characters but I have yet to find an effective way to use in combat where you actually plan on hitting something. Not even a mobile fighter can make two moves and still hit. I suppose you could Master of Many styles and just get your attacks by running around a target making AoO's but I'm not really certain how to do it with a duelist. Quite frankly I'm hoping this thread comes up with some results.That is a thought, a Panther Style user dashing around provoking AoO's while activating it... But that definitely doesn't help a Duelist lol.
Haha well I ended up mentioning because I thought of it while I was typing it an now I might make it. And adding snake style on top of that panther style can get him even more attacks. Especially with a fifty percent miss chance.
Parting Shot from the APG lets you make one ranged attack at any point during a Withdraw action, once per encounter (strange 4th-Edition-ism there coming from Paizo!). Prerequisites: Dex 13, Dodge, Mobility, Point Blank Shot, Shot on the Run, base attack bonus +6. With 'real' Concealment, that lets you Stealth + target Flat-Footed too.
Otherwise, consider trying to find ways to get an extra Move Action, available via several buffs AFAIK.
That lets you double move and have a Standard Action left over.
Effects that last for 1 round (like Lightning Stance) end just before your next turn (or the turn they were initiated on).
Spring Attack is it's own action. Lightning Stance doesn't apply, only to Withdraw and double Move actions.
i took a look at lightning stance and well i think you can use it with spring attack.
Lightning Stance
Benefit: If you take two actions to move or a withdraw action in a turn, you gain 50% concealment for 1 round.
Spring Attack
Benefit: As a full-round action, you can move up to your speed and make a single melee attack without provoking any attacks of opportunity from the target of your attack. You can move both before and after the attack, but you must move at least 10 feet before the attack and the total distance that you move cannot be greater than your speed. You cannot use this ability to attack a foe that is adjacent to you at the start of your turn.
so i think you can use lightning stance in conjunction with spring attack to get what you want. I believe there are other ways like a monk utilizing the panther and snake styles like the others suggested. Espescially since with snake style your unarmed strikes count a piercing and your duelist abilities apply at that point.
I'm not trying to argue, i just think of your GM interprets the wording is wheather or not it would be applicable
Well the problem with spring attack is that it specifically says you can only move up to your speed. Which is of course a single move action. Spring attack just allows you to separate one move action.
and now with that being said and re reading lightning stance i agree with you
spring attack isn't a single move action either. the very first line of it specifies that it is A (singular) full-round action. not two move actions, not one standard attack action taken in the middle of one move action. this was specifically clarified in the errata to it (before it wasn't clear if vital strike would apply to it, not it clearly doesn't).
So I'm building another Duelist and thematically Lightning Stance would fit really well... But frankly, it stinks as a feat. I have to double move or withdrawl to get concealement. Wind Stance is easier to activate but since it only works on ranged attacks it's also the pits.
So I as these forums, how would you abuse Lighnting Stance? I was looking for a feat that'd let that'd let you make a single attack or something when withdrawing but sadly I haven't seen one... Any Ideas?
It'd cost a ton of Ki, but maybe the level 12 Monk of the Four Winds ability, Slow Time?
Or how about just getting a bunch of Quick Runner Shirts?
Hmmm... I can think of a few ideas for this, sadly none really benifiting a duelist.
Combine this with a barbarians come and get me power and run around all crazy like, getting an AoO every time you provoke.
This would be great for an archer mount.
If you can get overrun or bullrush to work with this, you might be able to get something. Think trample.
A druid wildshaping into something with trample would work.
Yeah, sadly Spring Attack just wouldn't work. As it is, its just another thing Spring Attack doesn't work with :/
Spoiler:Parting Shot from the APG lets you make one ranged attack at any point during a Withdraw action, once per encounter (strange 4th-Edition-ism there coming from Paizo!). Prerequisites: Dex 13, Dodge, Mobility, Point Blank Shot, Shot on the Run, base attack bonus +6. With 'real' Concealment, that lets you Stealth + target Flat-Footed too.Otherwise, consider trying to find ways to get an extra Move Action, available via several buffs AFAIK.
That lets you double move and have a Standard Action left over.Effects that last for 1 round (like Lightning Stance) end just before your next turn (or the turn they were initiated on).
Spring Attack is it's own action. Lightning Stance doesn't apply, only to Withdraw and double Move actions.
That really is a weird feat(since it is structured like a 4th edition ability)... And what's more so weird is that there's a ranged attack version before a melee version. :/
But that's a good suggestion... I'll have to look into that.
It'd cost a ton of Ki, but maybe the level 12 Monk of the Four Winds ability, Slow Time?
Or how about just getting a bunch of Quick Runner Shirts?
Heh, I don't really like that archetype that much... aside from the capstone and aspects. But none the less a valid suggestion.
As for the quick runner shirts, that actually would work... for one round. Better than nothing lol.
Hmmm... I can think of a few ideas for this, sadly none really benifiting a duelist.
Combine this with a barbarians come and get me power and run around all crazy like, getting an AoO every time you provoke.This would be great for an archer mount.
If you can get overrun or bullrush to work with this, you might be able to get something. Think trample.
A druid wildshaping into something with trample would work.
That Barbian Combination is pretty strong actually, though I think that's just cause Come At Me is really good.
Does the Archer benefit from Lightning stance if he's moving? I would think he doesn't, since it'd be his horse. Now, if the horse had Lightning stance... That'd be one heck of a horse.
I hadn't considered Overrun/bullrush, that's sorta neat. Doesn't help the duelist but I think that'd actually be really cool if it counted as movement for the Stance. Trampling Druids would be really cool too.
All good suggestions, so if nothing else I can apply this feat elsewhere lol.
One of the few options I know of that works is the rogue talent Fast Getaway from the APG. Lets you withdraw as a move action after getting a sneak attack or sleight of hand check. Still not too much use for a duelist though.
Oh, shiny. That actually means the effect would work with a Rogue Dip, a Duelist could get a sneak attack and withdraw to activate it. Means you'd need a flanking buddy, but it'd work at least.
The rage power come and get me is just simply powerful, like the beast totem pounce ability. Come and get me would work just as well with lightning stance as without, as that is where the power lies :P
Does the Archer benefit from Lightning stance if he's moving? I would think he doesn't, since it'd be his horse. Now, if the horse had Lightning stance... That'd be one heck of a horse.
Yup I ment for the horse, and yup that would be a high leveled horse specialising in a poor defensive ability ;)
As for a the rogue dip for fast getaway, a duelist that 'duels' in a 2 on 1 (in his favor), hits once then runs away as fast as he can is a... peculiar duelist. To say the least -_-
Not to mention really hard to pull off. You need to be standing next to the BBEG at the start of the round, have a flanking buddy, make a single attack, then spend your move action hightailing it out of there.
Oh, shiny. That actually means the effect would work with a Rogue Dip, a Duelist could get a sneak attack and withdraw to activate it. Means you'd need a flanking buddy, but it'd work at least.One of the few options I know of that works is the rogue talent Fast Getaway from the APG. Lets you withdraw as a move action after getting a sneak attack or sleight of hand check. Still not too much use for a duelist though.
A rod of quicken spell and a touch spell will give you a free/swift attack, a spell like ability could be swift with the quicken spell like ability feat.
Actually, a classic duelist move would be the feint. There are ways to get sneak attack without a partner, and I have found a great but feat intensive way to do it.
Disengaging Shot from Ultimate Combat. Standard action to feint, disengaging Feint lets you move instead of denying them dex, but disengaging shot lets you make a single melee attack as part of the feint, and they are denied their dex against the attack.
So, the feat alone lets the duelist use lightning stance without the rogue dip, but with it, you can both attack, move, and withdraw in a single turn.
Kind of want to try building that now.
That is quite feat intenstive and's a little clunky... but otherwise it's perfect. And its mostly reliable(at least against humanoid creatures anyways). I think I definitely will be using this for the duelist.
And yeah, I suppose you could go Moonlight Stalker too(though I was planning on Human). I think that's a little outside the spec I had planned for(Only level 11) but I think if I advance them it'd be a natural progression if I changed the starting race.
Thanks much Godwyn, I appreciate your own and everyone else's assistance in this. ^_^