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To be clear, people aren't saying the late delivery is based solely on projections done before the Kickstarter ended. Reaper has made comments long after the Kickstarter ended (there was a comment on Feb. 19th for example) that they were still expecting to be completed within a month of when they started shipping in March.
We now learn that all the material isn't there yet and probably won't be for another couple of shipments yet. When were these shipments originally scheduled to arrive? We know that at least one is late at this point, but in order to believe that you'd be done within a month of starting to ship, that means they would all have been scheduled to arrive no later than mid-April.
Barring something completely weird happening, it won't be in two months. It'll most likely be shipped in May at the latest.
Well it looks strongly like it will not be May after all.
Statement from Bryan Stiltz:
We are no longer certain whether end of May is achievable - the Customs variable has thrown a monkey-wrench into our timetables.
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Kickstarter dates are not the same thing as release dates for typical products. Given this project and what I imagine a normal day at reaper to be, I will be happy when I get my minis. Its an insane deal, and we got that deal because we took the time based risk of potential delayed delivery time.
Honestly if you arent satisfied, I am sure there are people more then happy to buy out your kickstarter pledge for the original value. Heck I'm wishing I had ordered more last fall, even with the delays it was so damned cheap compared to both bones retail and typical mini prices, I could have made a killing in the secondary market by ordering more then I wanted.
Barring something completely weird happening, it won't be in two months. It'll most likely be shipped in May at the latest.Well it looks strongly like it will not be May after all.
Statement from Bryan Stiltz:
We are no longer certain whether end of May is achievable - the Customs variable has thrown a monkey-wrench into our timetables.
That's primarily for Canadian shipments, right (without more context I can't see what Bryan is responding to)? I don't think it's fair to blame Reaper for the Canadian government dragging its feet.
As with anything, there are unforeseen things that can happen. It seems that on Reaper's side of things everything has been running smoothly, they've even gotten more out the door quicker than planned. So it's down to outside forces over which Reaper has no power. Same thing could have happened to Paizo (and actually has in the past).
I don't think it had anything to do with Canada specifically.
Customer question (from Kickstarter comments section): "It would be simple to clear up with a little communication. Reaper, are you still expecting to have everything shipped out by the end of May as previously stated?"
Bryan's Response was what you read. Nowhere was Canada mentioned specifically. The customs they are talking about I believe are the China-to-USA customs not USA-to-Canada.
pres man is right. There is one boat with tons of add-ons at customs right now, waiting to be released, and another boat currently on the water coming here. So there is still a good long while before everything can be fulfilled, especially if the second boat gets held up as long as the first.
RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16, Contributor
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*I* find it amazing that all of that can be completely forgotten because some nerds have to wait an extra month for their freaking toys but then I have never been let down by the pettiness and vindictiveness of the 'typical gamer'.
I can't speak for everyone, but I think most people are more upset that we're 45 days into the process and only just now found out that there is a big delay in the works. People were openly speculating here, on KS, and on Reaper's forums about when their order would ship and Reaper reps just sat on their hands and let people assume their orders might be coming...
Wait a month for the miniature deal of a lifetime? Sure, NP. Just tell me about it. That's all. They knew back in early April the big minis were "on the slow boat" and many of the orders were going to be held up. They should have said something then rather than leave people hanging.
That's it.
A two paragraph update takes about 10 minutes to pen and saves lots of frustration. One a week saves more.
As for pettiness and vindictiveness... I haven't seen much of that, just lots of frustrated people disappointed in some really bad communications.
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I can't speak for everyone, but I think most people are more upset that we're 45 days into the process and only just now found out that there is a big delay in the works.
Or maybe some of the information was something Reaper didn't have themselves until recently (like how long it would take to get through customs and suddenly those "deadlines" came and passed). Or it was information which would skew the expectations of people and instead of giving it, which would be useless because it they still couldn't give a concrete answer or do anything about it (like the Canadian customs thing). It seems that no matter what information they give out people are going to complain about it. It's as if people think they are entitled to a day by day update on all the separate workings of the process. And a lot of people seem utterly unable to fathom the logistics for such a huge operation. An operation that's more than a 1,000 times bigger than their initial goal.
Also, as for your specific comment on the update page. You knew that the more add-ons you have (i.e. the more complex your order was), the further back in the line you'd be. They said that when they started shipping.
People were openly speculating here, on KS, and on Reaper's forums about when their order would ship and Reaper reps just sat on their hands and let people assume their orders might be coming...
No, they didn't just it on their hands, they were busy with their normal operations AND shipping out the stock they had already received. Which they were doing faster than planned.
Also, see the link I posted earlier where Bryan talks about this.Wait a month for the miniature deal of a lifetime?
You didn't sign up for the miniature deal of a lifetime. You pledged money towards Reaper expanding their Bones range and buying mold-injection machines, so they can move the production to Texas instead of China. As a thank you for that funding they are going to send you a whole bunch of miniatures. Again, you didn't buy those, you pledged towards the expansion of the Bones line and the equipment to produce them in Texas.
As for pettiness and vindictiveness... I haven't seen much of that, just lots of frustrated people disappointed in some really bad communications.
You must not have read the comment section on the various updates on the Kickstarter page...
All of this sounds like people are cooking up some kind of conspiracy theory and it's like they think Reaper is purposely keeping any kind of information from you all for nefarious purposes.
Even with the enormous success of the Kickstarter they still managed to get the first packages out at the time they ESTIMATED would be when they would ship. Seriously, even if they had every single package available before they started shipping it would take weeks to ship out 17,000+ packages. Try to get a little perspective here people.
And no, they can't just hire 30 temporary people to handle this as you can't just walk in off the street and know how things work in a logistics system like that.
And, again, all of this is ON TOP of their normal production and shipping. To get an idea of how much they produce on a daily basis, here are two videos which shows that. Video 1. Video 2.
You may think that it's terribly slow going, because (general) YOU haven't received your minis yet, but they've actually done better than pretty much any other Kickstarter and there are several people with shipping and logistics experience who are seriously impressed that they've been able to pull it off so far.
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The quote from Bryan, which pres man posted, deserves to have the last part included too, I think:
Bryan Stiltz about 10 hours ago
@Ron - We are no longer certain whether end of May is achievable - the Customs variable has thrown a monkey-wrench into our timetables. Please understand that we do not want to stretch the fulfillment process one hour longer than absolutely necessary - and personally, I want to be able to close the project successfully as soon as possible. There is a con I wanted to attend/work in June that if we're not done, I will not be allowed to (because I will be needed in the factory working fulfillment).
We communicated a while back that we were still awaiting other product, and have tried to be open about the delays. There are factors beyond our control, but this does not mean that fulfillment will not happen - only that it will take longer than everybody (ourselves included) had hoped.
We appreciate the enthusiasm, which causes the frustration. We are sorry that there have been delays, and ask everyone - whether supportive or frustrated - to please be respectful to each other. Everyone here is interested in the same goal - completing fulfillment.
So, aside from the MASSIVE thread derail, has anyone gotten their pledge? If so, what was your reward level/add-ons?
Just sayin'...I'd be pretty disappointed by the lack of communication to my original post by people I supported by setting up this thread :)
Here's hoping Dwarven Forge does a better job fulfilling its obligations than Reaper. That's the only other KS I've backed.
If this type of delay is SOP for KS, I don't think I'll be backing any more of them.
Of the nine I have pledged seven were or are late. Of those late one is a year late. So from my point of view, you should not back any more KS regardless of what you might get for the money you risk.
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Even Razor Coast has been delayed, and that was already written before the KS.
All kickstarters have delays because all projects have delays.
We don't normally see the delays in retail projects because we only see final release, now we're entangled in the process.
I hope nobody here is hanging on for Paizo Game Space!
You didn't sign up for the miniature deal of a lifetime. You pledged money towards Reaper expanding their Bones range and buying mold-injection machines, so they can move the production to Texas instead of China. As a thank you for that funding they are going to send you a whole bunch of miniatures. Again, you didn't buy those, you pledged towards the expansion of the Bones line and the equipment to produce them in Texas.
While that is true from Kickstarter.com's perspective (they would fine if Reaper up and said screw everyone, we are keeping the money and not giving anyone crap), I seriously doubt that is the perspective Reaper has or the impression they would want to leave people with.
As evidence, here is an example of the language they used in their Kickstarter:
What does "+$$ Option” mean?
Options are additional product you can receive by increasing the amount of your Vampire or Undertaker pledge by the option amount, unless otherwise stated.To get an Option, that is not available to all Levels, you MUST first have pledged the Vampire Level or a Level that includes the Vampire Level.
To add the Option, click the "Manage Your Pledge" button and simply increase your pledge amount by the Option amount shown.
After the project ends we will send out a survey to all backers. At that time you will be able to select the specific Options you have funded.
If you are international backer please see FAQ "What about international shipping?"
You'll notice the, "... are additional product you can receive ..." That seems a pretty clear indication that your original backing items are considered product (otherwise options wouldn't be additional), and the additional options are explicitly described as products.
So the idea that people were giving Reaper money out of the goodness of their heart and Reaper filled with warm feelings decide to give them things in return, while technically true from Kickstarter.com's policy viewpoint, isn't really accurate from the participates (Reaper and the backers) perspectives.
EDIT: People were talking about Kickstarters they have backed. I have backed six. Two flopped and didn't make it. One made it and all the items were shipped out within a week (easily within the estimated shipping time) of it ending (I only got a pdf, so mine was almost instantaneous but others have said they got the items they backed for very quickly). Two more have delivery dates in October and November, so we'll see how close those are later this year. And the last is the Bones. So my experience so far is 1 on time and 1 delayed.
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I don't understand why people don't set up kickstarters with massive (like six to twelve month) buffers in their estimated delivery dates. I didn't see many people posting about not backing paizo's second kickstarter due to the eighteen month delay in getting the goods. I doubt it would drive many away and would help avoid these kinds of ill feeling.
I don't understand why people don't set up kickstarters with massive (like six to twelve month) buffers in their estimated delivery dates. I didn't see many people posting about not backing paizo's second kickstarter due to the eighteen month delay in getting the goods. I doubt it would drive many away and would help avoid these kinds of ill feeling.
Because this is a new process for most people. Yes, Reaper has done some projects similar in nature, but this is still a new process for them too.
Most people on KS are not following an established and smoothed out business plan. If they were, they probably wouldn't be doing projects on KS. Even a lot of established organizations are using it to expand into new territory or scale that they previously hadn't attempted (successfully).
So, aside from the MASSIVE thread derail, has anyone gotten their pledge? If so, what was your reward level/add-ons?
Just sayin'...I'd be pretty disappointed by the lack of communication to my original post by people I supported by setting up this thread :)
Nope, I'm still awaiting my Sophie that they were meant to ship in November.
(Actually, I asked them to ship it with my main order to make their lives easier - here's hoping they remember).
But seriously, yes it's a huge logistical nightmare, although they did have some inkling the problems it could become. The main thing with any KS though is communication. An update or even the occasional hint about the rates of fulfillment are handy. (like where they pointed out one day they did 200 less than the days book-ending it - implying that they might get 300-400+ out per day)
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Quote from Reaper email that was sent to all kickstarter pledges:
"Now we're waiting on shipment two from China. These containers include many of the larger add-ons. We have documentation that we will receive them any day. As soon as we do, we'll continue fulfilling the orders that include the items that arrive in this wa ve of containers. We didn't expect to go so fast with the first wave, and China took longer to ship wave two than originally promised."
and on the Canada issue:
"First, our Canadian customers.
During the run of our Kickstarter campaign, we promised that we'd get you your stuff without you being nailed with a bunch of customs fees. To that end, we've had to apply for non-resident importer status to Canada. This way, we absorb the cost of the customs fees, and you get local delivery of your pledge packages. Unfortunately, we're caught in a bureaucratic morass of red tape. We were led to believe that we would be finished with this part of the process in December 2012, but we've been there for months now. Happily, we've received word from our customs broker that we're very close to having our application finalized, and as soon as we have the all clear, you'll start receiving your things. We're terribly sorry for the delay, but this was the only way to do it without sa ddling you with the import fees.
tl;dr: We're stuck in red tape, but the end is near, and we start duty-free shipments to Canada soon."
From this I get that Canada is probably going to be later than others, eh? Soon sounds like further away than any day now to me.
I don't understand why people don't set up kickstarters with massive (like six to twelve month) buffers in their estimated delivery dates. I didn't see many people posting about not backing paizo's second kickstarter due to the eighteen month delay in getting the goods. I doubt it would drive many away and would help avoid these kinds of ill feeling.Because this is a new process for most people. Yes, Reaper has done some projects similar in nature, but this is still a new process for them too.
Most people on KS are not following an established and smoothed out business plan. If they were, they probably wouldn't be doing projects on KS. Even a lot of established organizations are using it to expand into new territory or scale that they previously hadn't attempted (successfully).
You may well be right (I've certainly seen some annoyingly run kickstarters). In that case my puzzlement is broader - I don't understand why people are launching kickstarter projects without a clearly planned out and considered business plan.
I think of the 38 projects I've backed, only 2 has delivered within 1 month of the estimated date. Everything else has had 3-6 months of delays. Many are on track, though, and I'm hoping the projects that had massive buffers (like Kingdom Death, and the Gnomish Adventurers) will be on time, or close to it. Still, I expect them to run into some unforeseen issue (like nearly everyone does) and have to push back delivery at least a little
Developer
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So, aside from the MASSIVE thread derail, has anyone gotten their pledge? If so, what was your reward level/add-ons?
Just sayin'...I'd be pretty disappointed by the lack of communication to my original post by people I supported by setting up this thread :)
I received mine on April 17th, making everyone else in the office jealous. I just got the basic vampire set, a case (that I traded the Sophie for), and three paint sets.
I joked that I got mine before them because I'm a native Texan, but it's probably because I had a very simple order that wasn't waiting on anything special.
Ordered basic vampire here, have not received it yet.
==Robert Drouin
Location? i.e. USA, Canada, ...
USA, Maryland.
==Bob D
Weird, if you didn't have anything special (you didn't switch out the Sophie for anything did you?) it should have been shipped by now. I would probably try to contact Reaper directly to make sure something has been fouled up.
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I received mine on April 17th, making everyone else in the office jealous. I just got the basic vampire set, a case (that I traded the Sophie for), and three paint sets.
I joked that I got mine before them because I'm a native Texan, but it's probably because I had a very simple order that wasn't waiting on anything special.
Grrr! I'm in for pretty much the same thing - vampire set, three paint sets but I traded Sophie (and paid a little extra cash) for a couple additional Bones (including that large, undead skeleton). I'm guessing it's those additional minis that are holding me up.
Oh well, I can wait (and the truth is, I don't have any time to paint minis right now anyway, so it's probably for the best that mine have not arrived yet :)
You may well be right (I've certainly seen some annoyingly run kickstarters). In that case my puzzlement is broader - I don't understand why people are launching kickstarter projects without a clearly planned out and considered business plan.I don't understand why people don't set up kickstarters with massive (like six to twelve month) buffers in their estimated delivery dates. I didn't see many people posting about not backing paizo's second kickstarter due to the eighteen month delay in getting the goods. I doubt it would drive many away and would help avoid these kinds of ill feeling.Because this is a new process for most people. Yes, Reaper has done some projects similar in nature, but this is still a new process for them too.
Most people on KS are not following an established and smoothed out business plan. If they were, they probably wouldn't be doing projects on KS. Even a lot of established organizations are using it to expand into new territory or scale that they previously hadn't attempted (successfully).
It's not just a clear plan, it's an effective plan. People run into problems they didn't realize they would run into, which is really common for people who are going into something new.
If they had a really good plan and excellent track record, they could just go to a bank and get a loan, instead of posting a project on the internet and hoping in the next 30 days that enough random people contribute money.
An extremely common mistake people are making with KS is stretch goals. Their original idea/time table is feasible, but then you start adding stretch goals. If the project is very popular, you end up with a LOT of stretch goals. A lot of times these stretch goals end up being very time consuming and basically completely new projects that haven't even been started yet.
KS is not like pre-ordering at your FLGS or buying off of Amazon. It is its own beast with very different "rules" and trends. Much more care should be taken when contributing to KS IMO. You're not just putting money behind a product, you are also putting your money behind the person actively doing that product.
One I enjoyed a lot was Dungeon World. The two guys behind it are both computer programmers and they tackled the project much like their regular jobs. This meant they clearly tracked and documented progress, you could actually download the manuscript they were editing at any time, which they documented changes on in a similar manner to how some programmers document their work. The thing was though, I could see this happening before the kickstarter went up, so when it did, I felt confident that contributing money to them would be safe and effective, because I already had an idea of what their experience level and working methods were for completing the project.
With the recent Monte Cook project, I was hesitant enough I didn't back it. He's a good writer, but his history of ownership of his own companies, or companies he's been involved at the top of, has been rocky. In addition, I had no idea what kind of game it was going to be and that matters a lot to me (we knew the genre, but nothing about the philosophy behind the mechanics). If an alpha version of the game rules had been released prior to the KS project, I would have been more likely to contribute.
Yeah, I agree with most of that (although I disagree that kick starter is only for things you can't get a bank loan for - there are many reasons for using kickstarter). My only point is its bad to do it any other way than as those computer programmers did it. Furthermore, I think it's obviously bad.
Communication, careful budgeting, conservative timelines, etcetera isn't particularly hard, even when you're branching out somewhat (most of these projects aren't totally new fields for the project owners). A lot of them have totally unrealistic timelines, or say afterwards how they were caught out by some of the amazon payments not going through or are surprised that shipping times are unreliable. None of those things should be a shock, in my view.
Yeah, I agree with most of that (although I disagree that kick starter is only for things you can't get a bank loan for - there are many reasons for using kickstarter). My only point is its bad to do it any other way than as those computer programmers did it. Furthermore, I think it's obviously bad.
Communication, careful budgeting, conservative timelines, etcetera isn't particularly hard, even when you're branching out somewhat (most of these projects aren't totally new fields for the project owners). A lot of them have totally unrealistic timelines, or say afterwards how they were caught out by some of the amazon payments not going through or are surprised that shipping times are unreliable. None of those things should be a shock, in my view.
I've backed 9 projects (well, 10, but that one is still open right now). Of those 9 I've received all the rewards for 5 projects. Two projects are video games, so I shouldn't expect those for another 6-18 months realistically. One is in the final stages of editing I believe and I'm not worried at the moment (she had some cool opportunities come up she had to jump on and delay things a little).
So that just leaves the Reaper Bones I'm really waiting on. I pick my projects with a little bit of care, dealing mostly with people I either know or can research and find out how well they deliver on promises. There have been a lot of "shiny" projects I've passed on. Most of the ones I 'regret' missing end up turning their KS into a successful business, so their products are still available to me, just not the collectibles from the KS.
I have a friend who loves backing shiny projects. He's still waiting on a LOT of his rewards.
I'm with you - only one of the projects I've backed has gone seriously off the rails (so far, anyhow).
It just annoys me to see people doing it badly. I'm a big fan of crowdfunding and if it isnt used well, I'm afraid it's going to get an undeserved reputation that should really be sheeted home to the user rather than the platform. :/
From the Reaper Boards:
As I have said on the KS COmments:
Once again, everybody please be respectful to each other.
The complaints are legitimate - the delays really are frustrating, there have been some incidents where communication could have been faster, cleaner, etc. Nobody who is complaining is screaming for blood, they're expressing their unhappiness, and that's ok.
Those who are supporting us are also right, this is a big project and we've had a few snags along the way, and those have upset our timetables, but overall, we are not "not delivering" we're simply "delivering later than anticipated". Frankly, there's just as much frustration and yet hope on this side of the project, too.
I thank you all for your time, and we will work harder to give what information we can, but remember, some of the information is considered confidential business information, and I cannot share everything, as much as some of it might make things easier to take.
Bolded part by me. Just another thing to keep in mind.
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Personally, I am of the other opinion. I think Reaper is handling this great. I have enough information that I know about what is going on but they are not spamming me with useless crap I don't care about and can't affect. Seriously, some of my backed kickstarters feel the need to update daily about every random detail - STOP DOING THAT. It clogs up email and notifications and does nothing to get the product in my hands faster. It only makes me care less about your product as it takes too long for me to bother reading it.
I want updates maybe monthly, an additional one when the product is about to ship, with revised ETA on when it is going to be available. That is pretty much what Reaper has done, and I feel they are handling it well.
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Then they should have bumped back the delivery date before the KS closed.
While it would be nice - that is something that is impossible to do in the Kickstarter software. Once a pledge level has been created the creator can't edit anything about it other than limiting the number of people who can select it. That's why you'll see the complicated explanations of what is coming with each pledge levels when they start reaching stretch goals (for examples see Rappan Athuk KS by Frog God Games). And I think they mentioned that shipping was going to get pushed back to April during the end of the kickstarter in the comments section, but frankly I'm too lasy to go and look it up.
However, the point being, one of the reasons that the 'Estimated Delivery Date' for each of the pledges is Estimated is because the creator can not change it once the kickstarter launches - making it harder for the more successful kickstarters.
Friend of mine got his--was very happy. Saw some of them, they look really nice. "It is a sick number of miniatures," are his words.
Still waiting on mine--I think I got a dragon which is I am still waiting.
As soon as I saw how many people were pledging I knew they weren't gonna hit the March estimate, and that's before I pledged my money. They're a small company. If anything, the Vampire deal was much too good and I have to wonder if in the long run they'll take a loss--but at least they have their molds now, so probably not, I hope. But everything that's happening that's unsurprising to me. They are being open and transparent about where they are in the process and what's going on, and that's the best I can hope for--they are good people with a good reputation, and I know I'll get my minis sooner or later, even if I knew there was no way in hell that March date was gonna be real. If I didn't trust them to get the job done eventually, even if late, I wouldn't have pledged at all.
I'm still waiting on my insanely sick number of miniatures:D
Friend of mine got his--was very happy. Saw some of them, they look really nice. "It is a sick number of miniatures," are his words.
Still waiting on mine--I think I got a dragon which is I am still waiting.
Yeah I have a bunch of big uns in my order, so I will be near the back of the line. Funny thing is I wish I ordered more. Kthulu especially was a crazy deal compared to the current retail. I wish I had order like 10 each of the 3 big 'minis' and could not ebay the extras to cover all of my rpg expenses for the next 2 years. Oh well, live and learn.
As soon as I saw how many people were pledging I knew they weren't gonna hit the March estimate, and that's before I pledged my money. They're a small company. If anything, the Vampire deal was much too good and I have to wonder if in the long run they'll take a loss--but at least they have their molds now, so probably not, I hope. But everything that's happening that's unsurprising to me. They are being open and transparent about where they are in the process and what's going on, and that's the best I can hope for--they are good people with a good reputation, and I know I'll get my minis sooner or later, even if I knew there was no way in hell that March date was gonna be real. If I didn't trust them to get the job done eventually, even if late, I wouldn't have pledged at all.
According to their communication this has been a significant boon for them. They've paid for their molds, and apparently bones are selling better then ever despite the kickstarter. They also have hit an overall bump in sales both in supporting products (people buying hobby supplies in advance of getting their vamp boxes and such) and the attention the kick starter has gotten them.
Heres hoping they do a second one some time and we can cash in on another crazy deal and the bones line expands even more.
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According to their communication this has been a significant boon for them. They've paid for their molds, and apparently bones are selling better then ever despite the kickstarter. They also have hit an overall bump in sales both in supporting products (people buying hobby supplies in advance of getting their vamp boxes and such) and the attention the kick starter has gotten them.
Personally, I've intentionally avoided buying any more minis since August when I signed on for the kickstarter, because I knew I had this many coming.
But now that I got my kickstarter box and didn't know how to paint, I bought the first two of Reaper's "Learn to Paint Kits". They're $25 each for two brushes, 10-11 bottles of paint, two metal minis, and step by step painting instructions for those specific minis. I'm pretty happy with these purchases, and I can probably avoid buying more paints for a while, because the 19 colors I have (1 bottle from each kit is primer) should be enough to paint at least 20 of the Bones guys. I'll probably want a couple more colors eventually, but I've got a decent variety of core colors already.
Well it looks like it is going to be about 2 months for most of the people still waiting. Good news is that maybe by then they will have the whole Canada thing worked out.
Yay. Not.
Wasn't theilled with todays update.
Wow, so I thought before now had received 2 containers, 1 was in customs (for 2 months). So if it's 3-6 weeks for the last of the 4th new shipment, with 1-2 weeks minimum (hopefully not months) at customs - then transport to & sorting out at their facility.
That could be august before it's finally finished...
Yeah, I did catch that they said that it was 3-6 weeks (so counting next week 4-7 weeks) to get to our docks, not to get to the warehouse. So an additional x weeks on top of that for customs.
...Then 4 more weeks to Australia! Yay...
