Unusual Player Request - Spell-less Support

[Phyrrus]

So I'm going to be starting up a new campaign here shortly, and one of my players has decided to present an challenge disguised as his character concept.

For reasons unknown to me, he has decided that what he desires to play is a party support character that somehow assists/buff/helps the party, without the use of spells.

His initial proposition involved the use of the Third Party class; the Scholar. Now, aside from the fact I don't typically ok 3rd party stuff, this strikes me as the ultimate dip class, built with the intent to dodging multiclass penalties, which naturally make me wary

Anyway, on to my plea for advice.

While I know this isn't going to be a terribly effective character by any means, is there any way to make this even remotely doable?

I know theres a few things, like a bard's performace or a cavalier's banner that could work (since, while sorta magic, arent actually spells). And I'm sure there's a feat or two that might help (though I don't know them off top of my head).

But do any of you out there have any suggestions of things that could help make this happen?

[EldonG]

The Monk strikes me as the ultimate non-magical support character...but YMMV.

[Chris Kenney]

Monk (Sensei) is probably the closest to what you're looking for. Trade-off of Flurry of Blows for Inspire Courage, Competence, and Heroics (I think on the latter). Going to need Extra and/or Lingering Performance in this case - the Sensei's rounds-per-day is lower than the Bard's. With the use of Wisdom to-hit, you're set up perfectly to create a maneuver-specialist who can work things like battlefield positioning and flanking, set up status conditions, and the like. At higher levels you can even use your self-only ki powers on others at increased cost.

What's not going to be great here is direct bonuses - Inspire Courage is only one part of the bard's menu, without their spell selection it's not nearly as good as usual. But there's still a fair bit of support and the potential for some damage (which is always helpful.)

[blackbloodtroll]

Freebooter Ranger.

[Pupsocket]

blackbloodtroll wrote:

Freebooter Ranger.

+1.

Also, Aid Another specialist.

[Oterisk]

Sensei Monk -> Pathfinder Chronicler is actually a decent build. I have a guide toward that end, here it is.

[mplindustries]

I've made this character before.

Human Sensei Qinggong Monk of the Lotus

Take Halfing Heritage (or I guess just be a halfling, but I hate them, so not an option for me)

Take the Helpful trait, the Bodyguard feat, and the Blundering Defense line of feats.

So, you provide interesting and weird buffs with Sensei (especially using Qinggong), you CC enemies with Monk of the Lotus abilities, you can aid another as an AoO to give a huge buff to AC, and anyone standing next to you gets another big buff to AC as long as you're fighting defensively (hint: you're always fighting defensively).

[EldonG]

I'll second Monk of the Lotus as a too-often overlooked gem!

[Devilkiller]

Monks are ok, but the PC might want to wear Benevolent armor so he can more easily boost people's AC really high with Bodyguard. In homage to the old D&D cartoon he could be a Cavalier or Paladin who carries only a shield (but maybe wears a spiked gauntlet on the other hand). The Warrior of the Holy Light archetype for Paladin gives up spells. If the player thinks that Lay on Hands and other Paladin abilities are "too magical" then the Cavalier might be the way to go.

The PC could take Combat Reflexes and Bodyguard and have his mount do the same. Together they'd be able to provide some pretty nice AC boosts to each other and the party. Getting a non-standard mount with better Dex might be helpful. There's a Cavalier archetype in the Animal Archive which gets birds and dogs, either or both of which might be useful. You'd also be able to use the bad pun "Birdyguard".

[Hawktitan]

I'd like to suggest Holy Tactitian Paladin in addition to what has been said above. While it does a a 'magicky' feal to it the support it gives isn't through spells.

[Phyrrus]

Thank you so much folks!

So much stuff here I was unaware of. This is the first time my groups truly running pathfinder, so we don't know all of the ins and outs at this point.

With any luck, something here with satisfy my player.

[Michael Serra]

I'd also suggest a Freebooter Ranger. With a moderate amount of optimization you could transform it into a mean flanking machine - and those untyped bonuses go a long way into playing well with any of the other bonuses that the group might acquire over the course of many levels and adventures.

Of course, this is all irrelevant if the player has actually proposed a character concept beyond just martial support. My advice would be to ask what, specifically, appealed to him about Scholar and try and focus on that moreso than the idea of not being magical. Bard is clearly the obvious choice otherwise.

Also, speaking as someone who's actually had a Scholar at the table, your hesitations are unjustified. Banning 3rd-party material is obviously your call, but the class itself is underwhelming at best. I'd maybe drop it down to a step lower on the BAB progression scale, given how it can still be optimized to be a strong melee combatant with the right magical items in the campaign and a good UMD score, but either way it would undoubtably lag behind the others in the group. Short of several strong knowledge skills (on par with, say, a Pathfinder Chronicler) it brings nothing unique to the table. And how useful those skills actually are in the course of the campaign is ultimately your call.

Good luck with the tough concept!

[Petty Alchemy]

Monk of the Lotus is pretty much horrible, I'm not sure why you would prefer it to actual stunning. Despite the name of Touch of Serenity, it's not actually a touch attack.

[mplindustries]

Petty Alchemy wrote:

Monk of the Lotus is pretty much horrible, I'm not sure why you would prefer it to actual stunning. Despite the name of Touch of Serenity, it's not actually a touch attack.

Because:

1) Touch of Serenity eventually lasts multiple rounds (2 at 6th, 3 at 12th, 4 rounds at 18th).

2) Some things are immune to stunning, and stunning can be removed with certain spells/powers. Absolutely nothing in the game is immune to Touch of Serenity and there's no way to remove it early shy of making that save.

3) Touch of Serenity targets Will instead of Fortitude

4) You can still take Stunning Fist later, if you like, and it will be just as effective, whereas if you take Touch of Serenity later, it only ever lasts 1 round.

5) Monk of the Lotus gets NO SAVE Charm Monsters later on and they give up pretty much nothing worthwhile (maybe Abundant Steps, but only if you go for Dimensional Agility)

[EldonG]

mplindustries wrote:

Petty Alchemy wrote:

Monk of the Lotus is pretty much horrible, I'm not sure why you would prefer it to actual stunning. Despite the name of Touch of Serenity, it's not actually a touch attack.

Because:

1) Touch of Serenity eventually lasts multiple rounds (2 at 6th, 3 at 12th, 4 rounds at 18th).

2) Some things are immune to stunning, and stunning can be removed with certain spells/powers. Absolutely nothing in the game is immune to Touch of Serenity and there's no way to remove it early shy of making that save.

3) Touch of Serenity targets Will instead of Fortitude

4) You can still take Stunning Fist later, if you like, and it will be just as effective, whereas if you take Touch of Serenity later, it only ever lasts 1 round.

5) Monk of the Lotus gets NO SAVE Charm Monsters later on and they give up pretty much nothing worthwhile (maybe Abundant Steps, but only if you go for Dimensional Agility)

This. Seriously, what are your odds of stunning a giant? Now...Will save.

[chaoseffect]

Chris Kenney wrote:

Monk (Sensei) is probably the closest to what you're looking for. Trade-off of Flurry of Blows for Inspire Courage, Competence, and Heroics (I think on the latter). Going to need Extra and/or Lingering Performance in this case - the Sensei's rounds-per-day is lower than the Bard's. With the use of Wisdom to-hit, you're set up perfectly to create a maneuver-specialist who can work things like battlefield positioning and flanking, set up status conditions, and the like. At higher levels you can even use your self-only ki powers on others at increased cost.

What's not going to be great here is direct bonuses - Inspire Courage is only one part of the bard's menu, without their spell selection it's not nearly as good as usual. But there's still a fair bit of support and the potential for some damage (which is always helpful.)

Dwarven Sensei Drunken Master with Qingong powers. Take Fast Drinker (and maybe Drunken Brawler) to get extra ki as a swift action. Get Flask of Endless Alcohol (not official but you know someone somewhere makes them). Use Qingong to swap out all your powers for buffs which you can now use on your allies. At 11th level you buff all allies when you spend you active one of your ki abilities.

Be an over-the-hill, drunken Dwarf drill sergeant.

[EldonG]

chaoseffect wrote:

Chris Kenney wrote:

Monk (Sensei) is probably the closest to what you're looking for. Trade-off of Flurry of Blows for Inspire Courage, Competence, and Heroics (I think on the latter). Going to need Extra and/or Lingering Performance in this case - the Sensei's rounds-per-day is lower than the Bard's. With the use of Wisdom to-hit, you're set up perfectly to create a maneuver-specialist who can work things like battlefield positioning and flanking, set up status conditions, and the like. At higher levels you can even use your self-only ki powers on others at increased cost.

What's not going to be great here is direct bonuses - Inspire Courage is only one part of the bard's menu, without their spell selection it's not nearly as good as usual. But there's still a fair bit of support and the potential for some damage (which is always helpful.)

Dwarven Sensei Drunken Master with Qingong powers. Take Fast Drinker (and maybe Drunken Brawler) to get extra ki as a swift action. Get Flask of Endless Alcohol (not official but you know someone somewhere makes them). Use Qingong to swap out all your powers for buffs which you can now use on your allies. At 11th level you buff all allies when you spend you active one of your ki abilities.

Be an over-the-hill, drunken Dwarf drill sergeant.

LOL! I LOVE it. I gotta use that. :)

[Michael Serra]

I forgot to mention this last time, but also make sure the player is taking into account the rest of the group when figuring out how he wants to go about supporting. Freebooter is much more useful with, say, a rogue partner than a bunch of spellcasters and archers.

[Petty Alchemy]

mplindustries wrote:

Petty Alchemy wrote:

Monk of the Lotus is pretty much horrible, I'm not sure why you would prefer it to actual stunning. Despite the name of Touch of Serenity, it's not actually a touch attack.

Because:

1) Touch of Serenity eventually lasts multiple rounds (2 at 6th, 3 at 12th, 4 rounds at 18th).

2) Some things are immune to stunning, and stunning can be removed with certain spells/powers. Absolutely nothing in the game is immune to Touch of Serenity and there's no way to remove it early shy of making that save.

3) Touch of Serenity targets Will instead of Fortitude

4) You can still take Stunning Fist later, if you like, and it will be just as effective, whereas if you take Touch of Serenity later, it only ever lasts 1 round.

5) Monk of the Lotus gets NO SAVE Charm Monsters later on and they give up pretty much nothing worthwhile (maybe Abundant Steps, but only if you go for Dimensional Agility)

1: Stunning Fist can cause other conditions, including stagger for 1d6+1 rounds at lvl 12 for a standard monk. Causing Fatigue at level 4 is also an option, and though it might be hard to push past a Barb's fort, it can end the fight before it begins. You can take Touch of Serenity later.

2: Fair enough, I'm surprised it hasn't been errata'd into a mind-affecting ability, but by RAW everything can be affected.

3) Okay. So you trade anti-mage strength for anti-bruiser. Even so, if you manage to stun a bruiser, it's also an automatic disarm as well. That's pretty nifty.

4) See 1.

5)I think you vastly undervalue blinking. Sure, it could be cool to have the Naruto effect, but it might be rather tough getting that finishing blow that Touch of Surrender requires.

[EldonG]

Petty Alchemy wrote:

mplindustries wrote:

Petty Alchemy wrote:

Monk of the Lotus is pretty much horrible, I'm not sure why you would prefer it to actual stunning. Despite the name of Touch of Serenity, it's not actually a touch attack.

Because:

1) Touch of Serenity eventually lasts multiple rounds (2 at 6th, 3 at 12th, 4 rounds at 18th).

2) Some things are immune to stunning, and stunning can be removed with certain spells/powers. Absolutely nothing in the game is immune to Touch of Serenity and there's no way to remove it early shy of making that save.

3) Touch of Serenity targets Will instead of Fortitude

4) You can still take Stunning Fist later, if you like, and it will be just as effective, whereas if you take Touch of Serenity later, it only ever lasts 1 round.

5) Monk of the Lotus gets NO SAVE Charm Monsters later on and they give up pretty much nothing worthwhile (maybe Abundant Steps, but only if you go for Dimensional Agility)

1: Stunning Fist can cause other conditions, including stagger for 1d6+1 rounds at lvl 12 for a standard monk. Causing Fatigue at level 4 is also an option, and though it might be hard to push past a Barb's fort, it can end the fight before it begins. You can take Touch of Serenity later.

2: Fair enough, I'm surprised it hasn't been errata'd into a mind-affecting ability, but by RAW everything can be affected.

3) Okay. So you trade anti-mage strength for anti-bruiser. Even so, if you manage to stun a bruiser, it's also an automatic disarm as well. That's pretty nifty.

4) See 1.

5)I think you vastly undervalue blinking. Sure, it could be cool to have the Naruto effect, but it might be rather tough getting that finishing blow that Touch of Surrender requires.

Only Monk of the Lotus gets this:

At 6th level, and every six levels thereafter, the duration of Touch of Serenity increases by 1 round.

Only Monk of the Lotus gets Touch of Serenity before level 8 (10 for Monk)

It's more effective than Stunning Fist. It ends fights (more reliably, against the ones that were difficult to begin with) before they begin.

Now...it's not OMG!, GOTTA GET IT...but it's an effective option.

[mplindustries]

Petty Alchemy wrote:

1: Stunning Fist can cause other conditions, including stagger for 1d6+1 rounds at lvl 12 for a standard monk. Causing Fatigue at level 4 is also an option, and though it might be hard to push past a Barb's fort, it can end the fight before it begins. You can take Touch of Serenity later.

I don't think any of the alternate stunning fists are ever more valuable than stunning for one round. I will grant that, situationally, causing fatigue to a barbarian is awesome, but you'd have to win initiative and be in position to hit him on round one, and the Barbarian has to fail a Fort save (which is their best save, plus, they care about Con).

Petty Alchemy wrote:

3) Okay. So you trade anti-mage strength for anti-bruiser. Even so, if you manage to stun a bruiser, it's also an automatic disarm as well. That's pretty nifty.

90% of bruisers don't use weapons anyway by midgame. Further, casters have a class bonus to Will, but only clerics/druids have the Wisdom to back it up, whereas every melee type has Con.

Petty Alchemy wrote:

5)I think you vastly undervalue blinking. Sure, it could be cool to have the Naruto effect, but it might be rather tough getting that finishing blow that Touch of Surrender requires.

I did say that with dimensional agility, abundant step is pretty good. I just think multi-round CC with a will save is better.

[Michael Serra]

Phyrrus wrote:

Thank you so much folks!

Let us know what gets settled on, I'm curious.