Looking ever the Witch and I see that hexes have a dc for saveing throws, and I assume that you only get to save vs a hex if the Hex specifically states you can make a save. Is that right?
Yes, the target only gets a save if the hex says so.
I'm also wondering if something is effected by the hex of misfortune, does the target of the hex get to make a well save every turn it is hexed or just when the hex is first placed upon the target.
Misfortune (Su): "A Will save negates this hex."
You make the save when the hex is used. You only get a save each round if the effect specifically says so.
So if cackle is used to extend the hexes duration does the target get to continually save vs hex?
No.
I also assume there is no save for cackle since it isn't specifically stated.
Correct. Also true of Fortune, Flight, Coven, Healing, etc.
Yes. Best debuffer in the game.
Yes, I'm very close to outright banning witches in my game. "Best debuffer" is an understatement. Most of its abilities have no save (a mechanic I -hate-) and it puts a huge burden on the GM to keep track on the fly of all the changes to my numerous NPC's.
Anything that increases the complexity of the GM's job is a bad thing. Witches reduce the amount of fun I have as a GM.
I also assume there is no save for cackle since it isn't specifically stated.Correct. Also true of Fortune, Flight, Coven, Healing, etc.
The healing hex acts as cure light wounds, which explicitly permits a saving throw.
In general, a deleterious magical effect permits a saving throw unless it is specifically called out as not having one. In previous editions of the game, the GM was expected to adjudicate particularly inventive uses of otherwise beneficial spells, and permit saves where and as appropriate. The ongoing standardization (not entirely a bad thing, it brings benefits along with reducing the practice of applying common sense to gray areas) efforts have added the (harmless) notation to many spells.
And even when the spell is objectively harmless, it may not be subjectively harmless. A Rhahadoum zealot, for example, might wish to save against a cure light wounds even if it would save her life in the circumstances.
Under such circumstances, a save is appropriate.
May happiness surround all the plentiful days of your life,
MI
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Most of a witch's stuff is mind affecting, so anything immune to those essentially shuts down a witch. The only hex she can get off is misfortune and cackle, and the first requires a successful save. Then she becomes a buffer.
Of course, if every encounter has things immune to mind affecting, a witch isn't going to be too happy with the gm.
Also, has no one thought of going after the squishy witch? The only thing I'd bad witch-wise is the accursed "scarred witch doctor" archetype that uses CON for casting.
I find keepingttrrack of witch hexes no more difficult than the bazillion wizard spells that would be up otherwise.
And as said, witches are rreally squishy. They have the bad hp of a wixard with much less defensive buffs.
Most of its abilities have no save (a mechanic I -hate-)
Would you care to give some examples of "most of its abilities?"
I only remember cackle and the beneficial ones to have no save.
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Perhaps the "no-save" poster is referring to using cackle with evil eye, extending the one round duration of a successful save such that making the save does not actually matter? It's hardly "most" of its abilities but it can seem like it when that's all the witch does every round.
I don't ban anything but the class can easily be built to annoy the heck out of the GM in ways that "normal" classes do not.
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successful saved evil eye + cackle is strong but using up a move action every turn is something, too.
Looking at the hexes where a save would even be relevant (so not for example Nails or Cauldron)
Allows save:
Blight
Beast of Ill Omen
Charm
Misfortune
Poison Steep
Scar
Sleep
Unnerve Beast
Agony
Hoarfrost
Icetomb
Nightmares
Retribution
Waxen Image
Death Curse
Dire Prophecy
Eternal Slumber
Forced Reincarnation
Doesn't allow save:
Cackle
Disguise*
Evil Eye**
Natural Disaster***
*unless interacting with it
**Successful save reduces the duration, but if cackling can be upheld indefinately
***Allows saves for some effects and none for others
So, nearly all allow saves. It's mostly the nasty combo of Evil Eye + Cackle that's extremely dangerous, especially since it can give a -2 (or -4!) penalty to saves while allowing no save. In a party with other spellcasters that's incredibly powerful.
Also, there's some vagueness about if Slumber counts as a mind-affecting ability or not, depending on whether the "as per the spell Sleep" means "unless noted otherwise, everything from Sleep applies here". If it was a spell-like ability I'd say it's supposed to work exactly like Sleep, but since it's Su I'm not so sure.
successful saved evil eye + cackle is strong but using up a move action every turn is something, too.
Agreed, especially when it's on such a glasscannony class as the witch. At low levels, where this is most dangerous compared to what the opponents can do, standing still with like 15 hp and 12 AC is like asking to die.
successful saved evil eye + cackle is strong but using up a move action every turn is something, too.Agreed, especially when it's on such a glasscannony class as the witch. At low levels, where this is most dangerous compared to what the opponents can do, standing still with like 15 hp and 12 AC is like asking to die.
To be fair: You CAN cackle and move if you use up your standard action. Sometimes it is worth it. And even in situations when it isn't clearly a good choice it remains an option.
Agreed, thejeff. Witches kick ass against single target, but not nearly as much against groups (though they still have dangerous AoE debuff spells such as Confusion and Solid Fog).
It should be noted though, that "needs to cackle every round" is only if they succeed on their saves. Since the DC is 10+Int+1/2 level, it'll be quite hard to resist - especially if Ability Focus is deemed a valid feat for hexes (IIRC, james jacobs has said that you can take them for individual hexes and the +2 DC works, but that's just from memory so might be wrong).
I've had some fights that would have run very different without evil eye. When fighting hard hitting monsters a single attack that doesn't hit can be enough to change the outcome. Or a single attack from an ally that hits because of evil eye.
About other debuffs the witch can use: entangling foes via rime spell is my favorite. Combine that with evil eye to reduce to hit or AC and lots of enemies become easy prey. And rime spell, with the right spells, allows no save. That's the best about it.
You can extend it if you cackle in the same round. Standard action evil eye, move action cackle.
You can not extend it during the next round.
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Rd 1
Std : Evil eye (successful save : ends before your round 2)
Move : Cackle (Evil eye ends before your round 3)
Rd 2
Std : Evil eye (or whatever else)
Move : Cackle (Evil eye ends before your round 4)
repeat ad nauseam
Or even :
Rd 1
Std : Evil eye (successful save : ends before your round 2)
Move : Cackle (Evil eye ends before your round 3)
Rd 2
Std : Cackle (Evil eye ends before your round 4)
Move : Cackle (Evil eye ends before your round 5)
Rd 3 : whatever you need a full round of actions for
James said you can't cackle to extend evil eye if the target saves.
Link? Because by current rules you most certainly can, you just have to do it the same round you used evil eye on.
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Note that cackle rules have been clarified:
Witch, Cackle Hex: Can I use my standard action and move action to cackle twice in one round, extending another hex by two rounds?No, you can only use cackle once per round.
This is being considered for clarification in a future printing of the Advanced Player's Guide.
so the tactic suggested in this thread of cackling twice in a round don't work.
to be fair the standard james jacobs disclaimer applies to that entire thread.
