Hello All,
My players are running through Kingmaker right now and next week we'll be picking up a fourth player. He would like some solid suggestions on what class to play balance out the party. We've got a lot of third-party content in our game, and so far the party consists of:
Elven (Strength Build) Magus.
Vampire (a homebrew race from the thread below) Synthesist Summoner
(http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2pc6o?Homebrew-Vampire-Race-for-Homebrew-Setti ng#1).
Human Wolf Shifter (from Wayfinder #5).
The Magus does DPS quite well, and the Synthesist Summoner seems to be similar to a Tank. The Wolf Shifter plays like a mix between ranger and barbarian.
I'm thinking of suggesting a cleric, rogue, or alchemist. Thoughts?
Hello All,
My players are running through Kingmaker right now and next week we'll be picking up a fourth player. He would like some solid suggestions on what class to play balance out the party. We've got a lot of third-party content in our game, and so far the party consists of:
Elven (Strength Build) Magus.
Vampire (a homebrew race from the thread below) Synthesist Summoner
(http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2pc6o?Homebrew-Vampire-Race-for-Homebrew-Setti ng#1).Human Wolf Shifter (from Wayfinder 5).
The Magus does DPS quite well, and the Synthesist Summoner seems to be similar to a Tank. The Wolf Shifter plays like a mix between ranger and barbarian.
I'm thinking of suggesting a cleric, rogue, or alchemist. Thoughts?
Also, for those curious, here is the Wolf Shifter issue of Wayfinder. (free download)
http://paizo.com/products/btpy8l4y?Wayfinder-5
Cavalier, barbarian, or paladin or some other mounted combat centered class. Kingmaker is all about exploring, which means you get to use your mount, and mounted combat, consistently throughout the adventure
I would say a transmuter with item creation feats would be a good addition to your party.
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Hmmm... Between a Magus and a Summoner you should be OK on arcane casting, but it looks like you lack ranged support, divine casting, and skill monkey. I'd advise an archer inquisitor or cleric if you didn't mind giving up on item crafting (trying to do both is way too feat-heavy for cleric, and inquisitors don't have the spell list). A sneaky Ranger could do quite well in Kingmaker, too.
You might want to look at the roles presented in the second part of Kingmaker for ruling kingdoms, as well. Most of the spots can be filled by NPCs, but you need a PC ruler, and one with high charisma. If the summoner isn't ready for the job, you'll need someone who is. Divine Hunter Paladin sounds actually quite excellent, with ranged support, healing, and hella diplomacy, though if the new player doesn't want to be lawful good you might have a problem, lol.
I like most classes but considering you are missing any divine magic I would go that route. However, I would not make a healbot. I personally love necromancy (not necessarily undead) focus clerics.
Also, I disagree with Reynard's assessment of clerics being too feat poor to properly do item crafting. My Curse Cleric has plenty of feats for what he needs to do and still crafts magic items. In fact, with him around people rarely get injured.
His feats:
At first: Combat Reflexes and Bodyguard
3rd: Craft Wondrous Items
5th: Spell Focus Necromancy
7th: Greater Spell Focus Necromancy
9th: Craft Rod
11th: Heighten Spell (to keep the spell DCs up on the cursing magic)
Domains:
Luck - Curse
Travel
Favorite spells:
Shield of Faith (1st)
Divine Favor (1st)
Longstrider (1st)
Pilfering Hand (2nd)
Spiritual Weapon (2nd)
Grace (2nd)
Blindness/Deafness (3rd)
Bestow Curse (3rd)
Aura of Doom (4th)
Dimension Door (4th)
Spiritual Ally (4th)
Major Curse (5th)
Favorite Rods:
Quicken (to boost himself with combat spells while still doing other stuff)
Persistent (to force targets to save twice)
Stats:
Str14
Dex14
Con14
Int10
Wis15+2(human)
Cha8
Traits:
Adopted -> Helpful (Halfling) to increase the Bodyguard Aid Another to +4.
Weapon: Longspear
Equipment: Mithral Breastplate (to keep up the speed), Dex and Strength boosting belt, Headband of Wisdom, lots and lots of Pearls.
Basically, he is a mix of combat cleric, debuffer, and protector.
He stands behind the tank to provide a significant AC boost via bodyguard (and when possible will trips those who cannot reach him when he can).
If he wants to get to any area of the battlefield he can move as quickly as a horse (speed 50 when he has longstrider cast) and so does not need to be mounted for short distance travel. At level 8 he can start teleporting as a move action.
What he cannot do: be the party face or channel energy very well.
- Gauss
one thing kingmaker is extremely suited for is magic item creation, because there is lots of downtime. So some sort of full caster would be a good addition to the party.
We have a dwarven wizard in our kingmaker party and she is making the rest of us really happy with half-priced magic equipment
We've got magic pretty well down, but I didn't think of item creation, thank you!
Cavalier, barbarian, or paladin or some other mounted combat centered class. Kingmaker is all about exploring, which means you get to use your mount, and mounted combat, consistently throughout the adventure
That's true. The campaign seems like the perfect chance to see seldom used weapons like the lance and longspear shine. We've got a player who is looking forward to getting a griffon mount some day, and mounted combat is fun to work with. Plus, even thought the summoner has a high Charisma, he's a Vampire and thereby an outcast. Having a Cavalier or Paladin that could employ diplomacy could really help.
I would say a transmuter with item creation feats would be a good addition to your party.
Why a transmuter specifically?
Hmmm... Between a Magus and a Summoner you should be OK on arcane casting, but it looks like you lack ranged support, divine casting, and skill monkey. I'd advise an archer inquisitor or cleric if you didn't mind giving up on item crafting (trying to do both is way too feat-heavy for cleric, and inquisitors don't have the spell list). A sneaky Ranger could do quite well in Kingmaker, too.
You might want to look at the roles presented in the second part of Kingmaker for ruling kingdoms, as well. Most of the spots can be filled by NPCs, but you need a PC ruler, and one with high charisma. If the summoner isn't ready for the job, you'll need someone who is. Divine Hunter Paladin sounds actually quite excellent, with ranged support, healing, and hella diplomacy, though if the new player doesn't want to be lawful good you might have a problem, lol.
The Wolf-sworn fills the sneaky ranger archetype pretty well, though while he -can- fill the archer spot, he sees himself more as a tank.
Archer Inquisitor, cleric, or Paladin could help fill a bunch of roles, as no one has access to divine magic at the moment.|
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I like most classes but considering you are missing any divine magic I would go that route. However, I would not make a healbot. I personally love necromancy (not necessarily undead) focus clerics.
Also, I disagree with Reynard's assessment of clerics being too feat poor to properly do item crafting. My Curse Cleric has plenty of feats for what he needs to do and still crafts magic items. In fact, with him around people rarely get injured.
- Gauss
Ah, actually I said that it would be too feat-intensive for a cleric to pursue both item creation AND archery. And I don't think you necessarily need a healbot, but if your only source of healing is the summoner's wand of CLW, you might get into trouble later on. (Breath of Life and Heal are just as important as Teleport, IMO.)
I think a mounted paladin could do pretty well here, too. Remember, you'll need a charismatic leader once you reach part 2. Ooh, now that I think about it, an Oracle might be perfect for your group!
I like most classes but considering you are missing any divine magic I would go that route. However, I would not make a healbot. I personally love necromancy (not necessarily undead) focus clerics.
Also, I disagree with Reynard's assessment of clerics being too feat poor to properly do item crafting. My Curse Cleric has plenty of feats for what he needs to do and still crafts magic items. In fact, with him around people rarely get injured.
** spoiler omitted **
- Gauss
That cleric seems pretty bad-ass, if i do say so myself. >D
I would say a transmuter with item creation feats would be a good addition to your party.Why a transmuter specifically?
If you are stuck for a specialism for a wizard, transmuter gets the most spells and a lot of them are useful in support or for item creation.
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Reynard, I apologize that I missed your context regarding Archery. :)
ClockworkWraith, many people dislike 'save or suck' spells but I love them when the DCs get high enough. Let me know if you want more information on how to use that kind of build.
- Gauss
I'm thinking of suggesting a cleric, rogue, or alchemist. Thoughts?
I would strongly advise against rogue because the rogue is easily overshadowed and in a pary with a magus and more importantly a systh he would look just bad in combat and not good enough to make up for it out of combat.
The alchemist is nice but you already got 2 arcane characters so I'd not go that route either.
If he makes a divine caster I guess the others will try and make him a healbot no matter what. So you could check that with the party.
Didn't look at the wolf shifter but suggesting wildshape druid might step on that one's toes.
In the end I guess I'd suggest an Archer.
Or a Dwarven cleric (the dwarf archetype). He's good for item crafting and doesn't get channel energy so it's less likely he'll be forced to be the healbot.
I don't know anything about PF psionics so I can't say something about it.
Oh heck yes, a psionic character in this could be a lot of fun...
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Hello All,
My players are running through Kingmaker right now and next week we'll be picking up a fourth player. He would like some solid suggestions on what class to play balance out the party. We've got a lot of third-party content in our game, and so far the party consists of:
Elven (Strength Build) Magus.
Vampire (a homebrew race from the thread below) Synthesist Summoner
(http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2pc6o?Homebrew-Vampire-Race-for-Homebrew-Setti ng#1).Human Wolf Shifter (from Wayfinder #5).
The Magus does DPS quite well, and the Synthesist Summoner seems to be similar to a Tank. The Wolf Shifter plays like a mix between ranger and barbarian.
I'm thinking of suggesting a cleric, rogue, or alchemist. Thoughts?
I think the best choice here would be whatever the player wants to play as.
Paladin with a mount.
Because it's a rare event indeed that you can actually use a mount in an adventure path.
Oh? I can use a mount in nearly any campaign Rynjin. Small mounted races can ride medium creatures thus having the same size limits as medium characters.
Not long ago I created a Halfling Boar Rider Cavalier just for fun. By 8th level his damage on a charge averages about 100damage (including challenge, about 75avg without the challenge).
- Gauss
And what if you weren't a Halfling or Gnome?
Point being it takes a bit of finagling to do so. I don't consider "This particular class/race combo can do it" to be a particularly resounding disagreement, is all I'm saying.
Yeah Kingmaker is best suited for the mount classes. However with so much melee damage already floating in this group a arcane or divine char would be most fitting.
I would play a Bard in this party. Not only are they great support to all the other classes, they can also create items well and cover the lore part that can play an important part in Kingmaker as well (depending on the GM).
I can tell you from the Kingmaker game that I DM, melee is good for at least the first two books, there has only been one fight that the melee strong party has even had to blink at due to casting.
How is the summoner at social skills? One thing I have found in kingmaker is that you cant avoid important social interactions down the road, particularly when dealing with your subjects as your kingdom progresses.
If the summoner isnt particularly good at such things, a bard might be a good idea, or an oracle with a few social skills since you seem to need some divine magic.
Rynjin, any small race being able to do it is no different than +intelligence races being the primary choice for wizards. It is just one of those things that goes hand in hand with the build.
In short: if you want to be a mounted character and not care about size issues you select a small race. Either that or you find a level 15 wizard and pay him 1200gp to cast Polymorph any Object on you. :)
- Gauss
It's not the same scenario.
Every race can make a decent Wizard. Even ones with an Int penalty.
NOT every race can be a workable mounted character. It's dependent on the terrain. When your build relies on a specific combination of class and race to pull, it's not something you can point to and say "Yeah, Cavalier works in every AP!" it's more "Yeah you can run a Cavalier in every AP as long as you're a gnome or halfling".
You can invest point buy in Int and make your Suli Wizard work just fine.
You can't really invest anything at character creation into making your Human Cavalier a viable mounted character in most APs.
I guess we will have to disagree. :) I see it as a similar scenario. In either case magic and other techniques can be used to shore up the weakness of a poor racial match. Medium creatures can do what small creatures can do via magic.
- Gauss
My new player seems to really want to play a dwarf, and I stumbled upon this Cleric archetype awhile back: http://www.d20pfsrd.com/races/core-races/dwarf/forgemaster-cleric-dwarf
What do you guys think of it? It seems flavorful and thematically fun, but the Artifice domain seems pretty restrictive. Thoughts?
Are there any guides or good builds for this?
I guess we will have to disagree. :) I see it as a similar scenario. In either case magic and other techniques can be used to shore up the weakness of a poor racial match. Medium creatures can do what small creatures can do via magic.
If they have the magic available, which martial characters may not. Then you are dependent on there (a) being a caster in the party that can remedy the situation and (b) that they be willing to be your buff-monkey rather than doing what they want.
How about a Bard? Excellent buffer, skill monkey (especially social skills), and gets healing spells. An archer bard would help with ranged damage.
Kingmaker is also an excellent environment for a Druid, although it sounds like you've got plenty of summoning and shape shifting already.
In the end, the big question is what the player wants to play. Does he want to be in the frontlines in melee? Does he want to hang back and shoot arrows? Cast spells? Do social encounters? A bit of everything, perhaps?
Dabbler, how do you figure? Magic is available regardless of being martial or not. Wand of Reduce Person and he is good. Could get Reduce person Permanently cast. Could get one of the various Alter self options. Could get Polymorph Any Object cast upon him. There are quite a number of ways to make this work.
- Gauss
Dabbler, how do you figure? Magic is available regardless of being martial or not. Wand of Reduce Person and he is good. Could get Reduce person Permanently cast. Could get one of the various Alter self options. Could get Polymorph Any Object cast upon him. There are quite a number of ways to make this work.
How many are available at first level?
What about availability of items in the game? (not every DM allows magic shops after all)
What happens if they get dispelled? (items have low caster levels, easy to debuff)
Given many martials use a dump-stat, how good are they going to be at Use Magic Device? (not very, really)
There are many ways to shoe-horn it together I agree, but they can all become unstuck quite easily.
Dabbler, I think we have gotten off of the point I was making.
I stated that mounted combat does not have to be rare by using small races.
Rynjin stated it was rare because not everyone will want to go that route. (Basically saying it was a niche build.)
My response to that is that it is no more rare than a non-int race wizard. (Also a niche build.)
Rynjin's response was to state that there are ways to make a non-int race wizard effective.
My response to that was to state that there are ways to make a medium rider effective underground. Which was not me trying to put forth a medium rider being shrunk as a regular strategy.
Summary: If you want to play a wizard you typically choose a int boosting race. If you do not want to play a int-boosting race you must come up with strategies to make it viable.
If you want to play a mounted combatant you would want to choose a small rider. If you do not want to play a small race then you must come up with strategies to make it viable.
Similar concepts, which was my point all along.
- Gauss
But they are not similar concepts.
"This race complements this class" is vastly different from "this race is necessary to effectively use this class".
One is something that allows for unlimited effective choice, with one or two options being obviously MORE effective.
The other is something that allows for a narrow subset of options ONLY that are effective.
One is not hard to reconcile conceptually. Even races with an Int penalty can have unusually intelligent members who tend towards wizardry.
One makes little conceptual sense. Why is every Cavalier a halfling? Oh well obviously because caves.
Your options for a Wizard: Be any race. If it has an Int penalty put some more points in there. Buy a headband.
Your options for a Cavalier: Be short or suck.
My response to that was to state that there are ways to make a medium rider effective underground. Which was not me trying to put forth a medium rider being shrunk as a regular strategy.
Yes, but I think you confuse possible with practical. It's possible for a character to do this, but it's not a very practical solution and requires either external help of a design for this situation right at the outset (like pumping charisma and take UMD), and even then you still lose out because your damage is now based on Small size weapons.
Summary: If you want to play a wizard you typically choose a int boosting race. If you do not want to play a int-boosting race you must come up with strategies to make it viable.
I think you confuse viable here with optimal. It is optimal to choose an int-boosting race for a wizard character. Any wizard with an int of 15 or better is viable as a wizard, though. This is because the strength of the wizard is in his spells, and as long as he has the intelligence score to cast them, he has enough intelligence. Your save DCs may not be the best, but not all spells require saves. This is a minor change, it's not like you have to cast Fox's Cunning on yourself before every encounter in order just to function.
If you want to play a mounted combatant you would want to choose a small rider. If you do not want to play a small race then you must come up with strategies to make it viable.
Similar concepts, which was my point all along.
I see your point, but I think Rynjon also has a point that you are missing: the scale of the strategies is entirely different. A wizard without optimal intelligence is mildly inconvenienced and can deal with it himself; a mounted character the wrong size in a confined space has a major problem he needs help with or else a completely re-oriented build strategy.
See, that whole wizard thing is I think where we actually disagree. If you are not the right race for Wizard then you do suck. Your save DCs will suck. As 100 people to build a wizard and I think you will get 95 of them using +2 int races.
The 'magic item' solution that Rynjin proposes is no different than having Reduce person made permanent (even the costs are similar).
As for conceptual sense, I do agree there.
In any case, even large mounts can operate underground now with a specific combination of feats. Thanks to Animal Archive of course.
- Gauss
So use spells that don't have save DCs.
Summoning is one of the more powerful things to do in this game, and it doesn't require saves.
And no, it is again nit similar. The Int headband is unnecessary as a Wizard. Nice, but unnecessary.
It is NECESSARY as a medium creature to make yourself short to ride your Mount (where your main class features take effect).
Which is the reason that I have never thought about playing a Cavalier or Samurai that wasn't a Sword Saint. I dun wanna be short.
I'm glad you also think it's silly conceptually because I just can't get this image out of my head of the court Wizard going around to all the king's knights saying "Here, allow me to permanently shorten you that you may effectively ride your horse!".
Rynjin, the point again was not whether or not it was conceptually silly. It was whether it was a 'rare event' that you get to use a mount. How can it be rare when you have free will to choose? In short, there are a number of ways to use a mount in any AP. You seemed to think it was 'rare'. If we were to refine your statement to be accurate it would say 'rare for a medium character'. That is the whole crux of this.
BTW, what does 'Sword Saint' have to do with it? Nothing about being a Sword Saint prevents small characters.
- Gauss
What are the number of ways? The "number of ways" all amount to "make yourself short". It doesn't matter HOW you make yourself short, it's only one effect that's going to get you in there. You're just arguing semantics at this point. Fine, it's rare for a medium creature to use his mount.
What does that change about my statement? NOT A DAMN THING.
And I'm aware that the Sword Saint doesn't prevent small characters. The point is that I do not have to be small to play a Sword Saint.
Actually, there may be one setup that allows medium creatures on large mounts. It would require the narrow frame feat but it might be workable.
- Gauss
It looks like you've got no healers. That's rarely good. A Bard of Paladin could probably handle things though they're not a great fit for a dwarf due to the Charisma penalty. Cleric is probably your best bet.
Clerics can be mounted PCs with the Animal domain though you'll need to tke Boon Companion to get the mount up to full strength. Erastil has the Animal domain an is a pretty good fit for the campaign. Gozreh might work too. Being effective at mounted combat requires some feats, so I'd advise taking a level of Fighter with the Dragoon archetype. This also gives you proficiency with shields, medium and heavy armor, and martial weapons like lance and greatsword.
A big cat companion with Divine Favor and Inspire Courage could probably pounce for over 100 damage on its own. Add in Spirited Charge with a lance or greataxe and stuff will be extra dead. Meanwhile you can buff and heal the whole party.
\NOT every race can be a workable mounted character. It's dependent on the terrain. When your build relies on a specific combination of class and race to pull, it's not something you can point to and say "Yeah, Cavalier works in every AP!" it's more "Yeah you can run a Cavalier in every AP as long as you're a gnome or halfling".
You can totally play a medium cavalier or samurai in every AP but you'd be an idiot to build around charging at early levels. At later levels you'll invariably be facing larger monsters and the terrain, by necessity, opens up a lot more for charging.
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My new player seems to really want to play a dwarf, and I stumbled upon this Cleric archetype awhile back: http://www.d20pfsrd.com/races/core-races/dwarf/forgemaster-cleric-dwarf
What do you guys think of it? It seems flavorful and thematically fun, but the Artifice domain seems pretty restrictive. Thoughts?Are there any guides or good builds for this?
I would think it would be good...though a dwarf cleric is going to feel pretty hard pressed if anyone thinks he should be any sort of 'face' for the group, with only +2 for skills and a Cha penalty. If you already have someone who has the social skills...unlikely, from what I'm seeing...he'd be a fascinating addition. Otherwise, I think they are really going to wish they had that face character.