I used to frequent the WoTC boards back in the 3.5 days. One day, in 2004 I think it was, some kid started a thread where he questioned why the rules gave Ability score bonuses in Int, Wis and Cha as characters aged. He wanted to get rid of them completely, and replace them with penalties similar to how a character's physical stats declined.
His reasoning? I'm not kidding you. He had given the matter much thought, and in light of the success of people such as Britney Spears (yes, Britney Spears) he had come to the conclusion that it was an outright FACT that only younger people had the intelligence, wisdom and overall force of creativity and personality to contribute anything of value to the world, and old people were just "boring."
I took the time to ask him to consider that perhaps in saying what he was saying, he was showing that, as a young person he:
A. Lacked the wisdom to choose his words more carefully.
B. Was showing himself to be a jerk.
C. Had not educated himself enough to know how many great people in the history of the world did not make their greatest contributions until well into middle age.
Thus showing that his Int, Wis and Cha were all proving to be much lower than those of his older peers on the board (not to mention that he did not seem to know the difference between opinion and fact).
He totally ignored me. Which is fine. But the thing that really disgusted me was how few of the older people on the board made any attempt to refute him. I was 34 at the time. Old enough to know that our elders actually do deserve our attention and that there is a lot we can learn from them. But there were plenty of people on there older than myself, and none of them were speaking up. Some of them were just as engaged in the discussion on how to "balance" a rules change to allow the penalties this kid wanted, in exchange for some other benefit (though I can't imagine what they would think would be a fair trade - if your character's body, mind, personality and force of will are all completely gone, then what fun is the character).
I don't know why, but that incident has been on my mind today. Just thought I'd gripe about it. That kid has had nine long years to mature into somebody who is not quite as douche-like. What are the odds he did anything worthwhile with his time, do you think?
|
What makes you think his youth was the reason for his jerkiness?
I get it, he was young, he lacked common sense, experience, knowledge and he was a jerk. But I daresay I can find quite a few examples of people who are middle aged, lack common sense, experience, knowledge and are jerks and people who are elderly, lack common sense, experience and are jerks (yes, I say lack experience even if they have grown old - having experience isn't just 'experiencing' things but also letting those experiences get through your thick skull of overconfidence).
Jerkiness isn't a matter of age or generation!
| 11 people marked this as a favorite. |
"When I was a boy of 14, my father was so ignorant I could hardly stand to have the old man around. But when I got to be 21, I was astonished at how much the old man had learned in seven years."
-- Mark Twain
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
All I know is if I ever had access to a time machine one if the first things I would do is go back and b!tch slap my 18-year-old self, the smugly ignorant bastid
I don't know why, but that incident has been on my mind today. Just thought I'd gripe about it. That kid has had nine long years to mature into somebody who is not quite as douche-like. What are the odds he did anything worthwhile with his time, do you think?
I'm sure he did. Age is the only answer to the hubris some youthful people get up to. Of course, that particular hubris is then replaced with the nostalgic one where "we did things so much better/cooler/respectfully when I was young"
Not true. Our elders thought we were crazy. We thought the way we did things was groundbreaking and that we had shown all the previous generations the perfect method to do things. This cycle has likely repeated itself since Oog the caveman ranted about his son planting seeds near the cave while his son sneered at Oog's lame flint-knapping skills.
|
He totally ignored me. Which is fine. But the thing that really disgusted me was how few of the older people on the board made any attempt to refute him. I was 34 at the time. Old enough to know that our elders actually do deserve our attention and that there is a lot we can learn from them. But there were plenty of people on there older than myself, and none of them were speaking up.
Those with great wisdom know that it is best not to respond to trolls. This kid needed to learn all of this for himself. Perhaps the increased Wis with age improved their Will saves to the point where they knew better than to engage him...
"I see no hope for the future of our people if they are dependent on
frivolous youth of today, for certainly all youth are reckless beyond
words... When I was young, we were taught to be discreet and
respectful of elders, but the present youth are exceedingly wise
[disrespectful] and impatient of restraint" --Hesiod, 8th century B.C.E.
Pretty sure the Britney Spears thing let me know he was trollin..
I'll be 5 years into Alzheimer's dementia before she's smarter than me.
I don't think getting older makes you smarter. Its the mileage, not the years.
People think other people that disagree with them are idiots. Given enough time, "you" and "you" become different people, so you think that they're an idiot.
To paraphrase a comic, you're never going to be smart. you're going to be 70 thinking you didn't know dit when you were 60.
There's a reason rental car companies don't rent cars to people under 25.
I remembered that thread...I don't know if I commented on it or not...I think the whole Brittainy Spears comment probably made me think it would be a waste of time.
The thread was probably stemmed from a feeling of unfairness in that rule pretty much was younger people are stupider, unwise, and have no people skills. It is kinda ironic that the OP of that thread proved by the tone of his/her post.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
What makes you think his youth was the reason for his jerkiness?
I get it, he was young, he lacked common sense, experience, knowledge and he was a jerk. But I daresay I can find quite a few examples of people who are middle aged, lack common sense, experience, knowledge and are jerks and people who are elderly, lack common sense, experience and are jerks (yes, I say lack experience even if they have grown old - having experience isn't just 'experiencing' things but also letting those experiences get through your thick skull of overconfidence).Jerkiness isn't a matter of age or generation!
What makes you think I think every kid is a jerk? And where did I say every older person was a saint?
In this case, his jerkiness was youth-centered, totally about youth, boastful of his own youth, and quite agist.
All evidence in, what on earth makes you think it DIDN'T have to do with his youth? (Aside from your own possible youth, or a knee-jerk reaction, or a typical forum desire to be contrary? OR ARE YOU THE SAME KID?) You jumped on me pretty quickly there. Made a lot of assumptions about me over an anecdote from nine years ago, with zero evidence for any of them.
He totally ignored me. Which is fine. But the thing that really disgusted me was how few of the older people on the board made any attempt to refute him. I was 34 at the time. Old enough to know that our elders actually do deserve our attention and that there is a lot we can learn from them. But there were plenty of people on there older than myself, and none of them were speaking up.Those with great wisdom know that it is best not to respond to trolls. This kid needed to learn all of this for himself. Perhaps the increased Wis with age improved their Will saves to the point where they knew better than to engage him...
I would have been very happy if I could agree with you that the older folks wisely said nothing. And believe me, that is a lesson I have learned myself. What bothered me was that the older folks chimed in and helped him, which as the thread continued, seemed to only make him more arrogant.
I suppose one could hope that in time, he realized that in helping him and not spanking him, those folks were proving their hard-won wisdom. That would be nice.
|
|
What makes you think his youth was the reason for his jerkiness?
I get it, he was young, he lacked common sense, experience, knowledge and he was a jerk. But I daresay I can find quite a few examples of people who are middle aged, lack common sense, experience, knowledge and are jerks and people who are elderly, lack common sense, experience and are jerks (yes, I say lack experience even if they have grown old - having experience isn't just 'experiencing' things but also letting those experiences get through your thick skull of overconfidence).Jerkiness isn't a matter of age or generation!
What makes you think I think every kid is a jerk? And where did I say every older person was a saint?
In this case, his jerkiness was youth-centered, totally about youth, boastful of his own youth, and quite agist.
All evidence in, what on earth makes you think it DIDN'T have to do with his youth? (Aside from your own possible youth, or a knee-jerk reaction, or a typical forum desire to be contrary? OR ARE YOU THE SAME KID?) You jumped on me pretty quickly there. Made a lot of assumptions about me over an anecdote from nine years ago, with zero evidence for any of them.
Please, calm down. I wasn't trying to accuse you of anything. If it seemed that way, I hope it was through a misunderstanding or poor wording. I agreed with you that the person you described acted as a jerk, so I I were the same person, the question you asked would have a definite answer - unfortunatly, I was never active on the WotC boards and with 37yoa I don't consider myself a youngling anymore.
I never ever in my post said that I think you hold every young person for a jerk or every elder person for a saint. My question was genuine - why do you think his jerkiness is connected to his youth.
What I wrote in continuation was more or less my stand on your question - If he is a jerk, years, even years of learning won't make that better. Jerks can change, but that is not the wisdom of the ages, that requires a concious act of self reflexion. I am not fundamentally disagreeing with you - I just stated my opinion, based on my experience, that even youth centred 'jerkiness' isn't necessarily based on the person being young - sadly many if not most of those younglings grow up to be older jerks.
Again, I was not attacking you, nor did I try to be contrary - perhaps my poor wording was misleading - but even rereading my post I think you overreacted quite a bit. Perhaps you would be so kind (again, this is a genuine question) to show me where you thought I have made assumptions about you (which I didn't mean to), so I know where I missed the mark.
There can be some inherent jerkiness to youth. Now it's not guaranteed on all individuals, but there is a slight upward trend to it for certain age groups. I would mostly attribute it to the part of the brain that develops pretty late, not until around the age of 24-26 in most people, that increases impulse control.
The peak age for criminal activity is 14-25.
Car insurance drops after you're 25.
Rental companies will rent you cars after you're 25.
Its not that kids are jerks necessarily, it's that they're more likely to act without thinking through all the consequences, like how their actions will impact other people. They've already developed their ability to rationalize things, which our brain is REALLY good at doing, so do a thing without thinking it through, THEN they rationalize it. Since it's been rationalized now, it must be okay, so they become a little jerkish.
Over the past 10 years I went from my mid-20's to mid-30's. I've found that my tolerance for dealing with 18-23 y/o's has dropped dramatically. Younger than that and you can kind of browbeat them with your age and experience, but once they get to that point you can't tell them anything. I've met some of those people who I couldn't stand, after they passed that magic age of 25... much easier to deal with. I even like some of them now.
I helped run a raiding guild in WoW for a while. We had a rule of only accepting 18+ people, we couldn't really age check, but we trusted people. Partly of the reason was also we had annual get togethers, in person, and that was just easier with adults. With a couple of exceptions, our most stable members were all over 25. They weren't necessarily our best players, but they were responsible. They told us when they couldn't show up, they did what we asked and tended to stick around longer.
All of our 'drama' was committed by people 20 and under. Every single member we broke the 18+ rule for caused trouble in one fashion or another.
There isn't a guarantee that someone will become less of a jerk as they get older. It is highly likely that they will slow down their process of thinking -> acting, increasing the odds that they'll consider how their actions affect others, and that continued experience will make them better at predicting those consequences.
Then of course, there's Dick Cheney, who can't even accurately acknowledge the consequences of his past actions.
Its not that kids are jerks necessarily, it's that they're more likely to act without thinking through all the consequences, like how their actions will impact other people. They've already developed their ability to rationalize things, which our brain is REALLY good at doing, so do a thing without thinking it through, THEN they rationalize it. Since it's been rationalized now, it must be okay, so they become a little jerkish.
"So convenient a thing it is to be a reasonable creature, since it enables one to find or make a reason for everything one has a mind to do. "
--Benjamin Franklin
|
OP, when you'll grow to be, say, 10 years older, you would be wise enough to ignore 14 years old trolls in the internet and give up trying to even communicate with them, because it's pointless. That's about the time when you'll think, "gee, I was such a hotheard who didn't have a clue when I was 34 and actualy tried to REASON WITH A TROLL. Ha, people less than 40 years o;d are stuipd".
As for me, when I was 6 years old I had an argument with my parents where (and they'll never stop reminding me of that) I shouted, "Yeah? well tell me one thing I don't know already in the world! one thing!".
By some mystical force I actualy soberd up after that argument (which honestly was a real turning point for me) and ever since then Iv'e been as respectful a young child as could be asked for - not kidding. I actualy realised what I was saying was dumb, and opened up to learn from the experience of others. Now? I'm actualy rather extreme about respecting my elders. For example, I would never go out with a girl who's more than 2 years apart from me in age(in any direction) because the relationship could never be equal.
When I explain my views on the subject to people, I ask them: "Would you, right now, respect the kind of person you were two years ago?", and 90% of the time the answer is "no". When it's "yes", I ask, "And do you respect the kind of person you were 10 years ago?", and then the answer is always "no".
The peak age for criminal activity is 14-25.
How much of that is from a mental state, and how much of that is its because you're old enough to want expensive stuff but don't have any way of getting it?
Also, grandpa isn't going to come up with a plan to run away from the cops on his arthritic hip.
Car insurance drops after you're 25.
Rental companies will rent you cars after you're 25.
Do you think that having 7 years of driving experience might have something to do with that?
I mean if we raised the driving age to 25 I'd expect 25 year olds to be crappy drivers as well.
Over the past 10 years I went from my mid-20's to mid-30's. I've found that my tolerance for dealing with 18-23 y/o's has dropped dramatically.
Because its easier to deal with people that are on the same wavelength as you, and you've moved on geezer :)
Younger than that and you can kind of browbeat them with your age and experience, but once they get to that point you can't tell them anything. I've met some of those people who I couldn't stand, after they passed that magic age of 25... much easier to deal with. I even like some of them now.
Wait till you're 60 and trying to tell the 30 year old something :)
I can see where the guy was coming from, though douchery is always lame. I don't think aging bonuses to base mental scores make a whole lot of sense either. An older person ought to be represented with more experience, not greater core mental and sensory acuity and etc. Human brains peak in learning capability, plasticity, capacity for adaptive reorganization, etc, during youth, not during old age (at least, according to my layman's understanding of neuroscience).
HOWEVER - it's very easy to more than outweigh any change there with accumulated knowledge and competencies acquired through practice. Saying that when I was in school I might have been able to learn new things faster than my eighty year old college professor is not remotely the same thing as saying I knew more things than he did, or that I was better at what I did than he was at what he did.
I guess I would say that older people are typically higher level (and often more competent in their chosen fields for this reason) than younger people, rather than being innately mentally superior.
Maybe that guy the OP referred to has put a few ranks in Diplomacy and perhaps a Skill Focus (musical taste) since he wrote that post, for example :p
Car insurance drops after you're 25.
Rental companies will rent you cars after you're 25.Do you think that having 7 years of driving experience might have something to do with that?
I mean if we raised the driving age to 25 I'd expect 25 year olds to be crappy drivers as well.
When I was in drivers' ed (ten years ago or so) I remember the instructor telling the class that teenagers were the best natural drivers around. We had the best eyesight, the fastest physical reaction times, could make the fastest decisions, etc.
On the other hand, we got in the most accidents? Why? Inexperience.
And because of bad judgement. Teenagers, especially teenage males, often do stupid s$+@ behind the wheel. I'm surprised I survived some of the stuff we got up to and I was a pretty good kid.
Speeding, in the dark, lights off, on the wrong side of the winding hilly road. "It's fine as long as some idiot isn't doing the same thing the other way!"
And why do people stop doing that sort of thing? Pre frontal cortex development or do you stop doing it after you have to get your car out of a tree with a chainsaw a time or two and you learn from the experience.
And because of bad judgement. Teenagers, especially teenage males, often do stupid s$+@ behind the wheel. I'm surprised I survived some of the stuff we got up to and I was a pretty good kid.
Speeding, in the dark, lights off, on the wrong side of the winding hilly road. "It's fine as long as some idiot isn't doing the same thing the other way!"
And why do people stop doing that sort of thing? Pre frontal cortex development or do you stop doing it after you have to get your car out of a tree with a chainsaw a time or two and you learn from the experience.
Just curious, are you claiming the prefrontal cortex has nothing to do with judgement?
There are some people who would disagree with you.
I like the last line of the 6th paragraph in this one. Here's the quote:
In fact, this part of the brain has been dubbed "the area of sober second thought."
There's even evidence that some of the factors can take into our thirties to finish developing.
The earlier stages of development of these aspects of the brain probably impact ADHD.
You looked like you needed more science.
Edit: From a paper about the prefrontal cortex and criminal behavior.
Findings such as these lead to a consideration of the role
of the PFC in moral reasoning. Several well-designed studies have required subjects to do some manner of moral
reasoning (to decide what behaviour they would choose in a
morally ambiguous situation) versus reasoning about the
physical world (for example, considering whether one object
is heavier than another). Consistently, the moral reasoning
scenario preferentially activates parts of the PFC (Greene et
al. 2001; Schultz et al. 2001; Heekeren et al. 2003; Moll et
al. 2003). Moreover, making a decision in the face of a moral
quandary activates more of the PFC than merely contemplating a moral quandary (Moll et al. 2002).
Speeding, in the dark, lights off, on the wrong side of the winding hilly road. "It's fine as long as some idiot isn't doing the same thing the other way!"
I dunno about your friends, me and mine had way better judgment than that :p
As for the cortex, it typically matures well before age related bonuses start kicking in, doesn't it? So while I can see it as an argument for applying the Young template penalties to mental scores as well (as the rules would indicate), I don't know that it provides a compelling case to give an eighty year old +3 intelligence compared to a thirty year old.
So basically it boils down to: "When I was young, I thought I would make more mistakes as I grew older but I was wrong..."?
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
And because of bad judgement. Teenagers, especially teenage males, often do stupid s~$# behind the wheel. I'm surprised I survived some of the stuff we got up to and I was a pretty good kid.
Speeding, in the dark, lights off, on the wrong side of the winding hilly road. "It's fine as long as some idiot isn't doing the same thing the other way!"
"'You're a rotten driver,' I protested. 'Either you ought to be more careful, or you oughtn't to drive at all.'
'I am careful.'
'No, you're not.'
'Well, other people are,' she said lightly.
'What's that got to do with it?'
'They'll keep out of my way,' she insisted. 'It takes two to make an accident.'
'Suppose you met somebody just as careless as yourself.'
'I hope I never will,' she answered. "I hate careless people.'"
--F. Scott Fitzgerald
We all know that children learn fast, right? Well, turns out they have an entirely different brain structure than adults. They have far less fixed structure in their white matter, they have far more gray matter, which means connections between brain cells are easier to make, which means learning is faster. What children can't deal with is long-term focus, planning, time judgement, multi-factorial assessment and what we smugly call "higher functions". We say that the child's brain is intensely plastic, i.e. mutable and adaptable. As adults, it's the other way around. We have consolidated the pathways we find useful, the complexity we can handle has increased, but it takes us years to learn a new language and we never get as good at it as a child can. What is fascinating is that both of these images are deeply ingrained in most people... but few people really understand that this corresponds to massive structural differences in our brains. And when does this change happen? Yeah. There is a reason why most people think being a teen sucks. But raw brain power, measurable smarts? Say what you like, but that 23-year-old IS, on average, smarter than people of other ages.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I had it browbeaten into me that, when you're young, you think you know everything. Boy, when you grow up, you'll realize how dumb you are. Things are much bigger than you and harder to understand.
So I spent my adolescence not getting into any trouble. Not staying out late or partying. I spent my teenage years and most of my adulthood thinking that I'm quite likely wrong about all my beliefs because I just don't have that much experience, let alone education.
Then I went back to school. Turns out I'm just f**$ing smart and I shouldn't have listened to the adults. Those things I didn't understand that I'd understand when I'm older? I still don't, and neither do the liars who just didn't want the headache of an inquisitive child. All those things I always questioned? Turns out they're b@%&%+$#. All those things I was told not to question because they're too complicated for me to understand? Turns out no one understood them and the economy collapsed.
I don't think the young, or the old, are any smarter or better than any other demographic. There's stupidity EVERYWHERE! But a culture that belittles you for being young and tells you you're stupid will never get anywhere because it's run by old, stupider people who also have the handicap of being stuck in the g%@%~~n mud, is doomed.
Don't trust anyone over 30 (especially me!).
Evidence that being older doesn't make you smarter:
STDs used to be no big deal in nursing homes.
Then they invented viagra.
Now the old folks are too stubborn to put their condoms on and stds from syphilis to aids are running rampant.
Its not that grandpa was any smarter about remembering to put on his rain slicker, he just never went outside.
Likewise folks telling you not to drink and party are doing so (partially) because they can't do it and still function the next day.
My advice:
Think for yourself, completely ignore the phrase "You think you know everything" but at the same time realize you don't know everything but neither does anyone else, but take advice from people because they may have some good input. Be logical, party while you can but don't go overboard so that you kill yourself, try not to do illegal things that will get you in trouble, try not to get addicted to any substance, and put enough effort into life to have a decent living.
Being logical is where most people fail at any age. Accept and admit defeat if your viewpoint can't hold, and maybe you will improve yourself.
There's stupidity EVERYWHERE!
Boy, ain't that the truth...