Goblin Squad Member
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Theme park MMOs have a trap at the end-game stage, with experienced players looking around and asking "Is this it? What do I do now?". Sandbox MMOs have a trap at the opposite end of the game, with new players looking at all the possibilities and asking "What do I do first?"
Charts like this may be beautiful to an experienced sandbox player, but they can be incredibly intimidating to a newcomer. How can Pathfinder Online find a balance between excessive hand-holding and the feeling of abandonment that makes newcomers quit before they find their niche in a sandbox game?
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Goblin Squad Member
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The NPE will be largely influenced by the EE crowdforgers. There will probably be some direction in where to go, but the main thing the game needs to do is funnel people into existing charters.
Sandboxes really aren't for the weak of mind, you should be comfortable looking at a chart like that and doing a bit of research before you step into a sandbox. I think RSI has a good idea, where they are making a campaign precursor to the sandbox, but I don't think something like that will be in GW's budget.
The transparency probably helps. Organizations are being built up even before the game enters EE, meaning that the ball will already be rolling.
The trick is probably to get these new players to make friends. Once they've done that, they'll be guided to protect merchants, kill merchants, or whatever it is their new friends do. Of course, making friends isn't always easy.
In my view, a big chunk of the burden will fall upon the organizations themselves. They need to network, and do their best to encourage both new recruits and new groups that might make useful allies later on. If new groups are stifled, you end up with just a few big organizations and a bunch of soloists who aren't even enjoying themselves. It's not healthy for the big organizations, not healthy for the new players, and not healthy for the game as a whole.
Of course, this is all just guesswork, since I know very little about sandbox MMOs. It may be that shutting down potential rivals is the wisest course of action.
If that's so, you probably want to do that by trying to get them to forget about making their own group. Why make their own little mining team when they can join your highly successful merchant company?
No matter what, I do think that networking will be the key to getting new players invested. Once they have friends, they have people to hang out with, a steady source of "quests", and the power to stop insane moon goddesses. You just need to make sure they can find those friends before they get bored and leave.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I would guess that since the start of this game is a Themepark, then it evolves into a sandbox, you should have a good beginning player experience.
So I would say that you would be ok. As they are doing a mix of the other games. Ive seen Eve's new player experience develop quite well, but they still have work to do. With a Themepark beginning, it should lead you through everything that will get you into the game, then cut you loose.
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Goblin Squad Member
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You also will have players, like myself, who devote a good chunk of their game time to helping new players. I did the same in UO...a game that certainly didn't handhold. I'm guessing the learning curve in PFO will be similar, which will of course give me plenty to do.
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If there are strong reasons for the major organizations to recruit and train new players, it becomes easier.
It probably helps that characters will always be able to be useful somehow, regardless of level. It doesn't matter if they're new if they're willing to serve their organization faithfully.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Ryan's discussed this a little previously. In fact iirc, in this live-interview over at mmorpg.com he mentions he's a fan of Red Dead Redemption where your character is off doing things and learning coincidentally and all feels like it's your choice what you do, when you do, and how you do it... iirc that is!
This post in particular: New Player Experience - lessons learnt at EVE
- I think the point made is that new players should be doing useful stuff immediately at the scale of their experience, skill, pace and all the rest of it. Not waiting to hit a milestone BEFORE they get cracking.
- But atst, something that looks really good about PFO is the story, your char's personal growth are all a product of the time you put in and the actions you decide to do. Naturally a new character is jotting the first unwritten words into their journey... safely tucked away in an npc settlement away from being ganked 5 seconds in!
- Additionally Ryan mentions the problem with a game that is intended to be played over a long period of time eg EVE Spec'ing is making an early bad choice that you cannot undo, that haunts you a year or 2 later.
Seem to be within hand. I think above all, the community being super helpful/positive is the best impression of an online game. Eg EVE University. The settlement hiring of new players has been mentioned additionally, which perhaps is the ideal link in-game for new players.
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RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16
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Good links Avena; I think Ryan covers most of the important things that make for a good NPE, which gives me a lot of comfort.
I actually expect the NPE to change quite a lot over the course of Early Enrolment. When EE opens, many of the initial wave of players will have been following and discussing and crowdforging and planning for several months. That's a specific sort of new player - already highly invested and informed.
By the time we hit general release, the sort of new payer changes dramatically, as does the environment that they're stepping into. For example, they may have just downloaded the game based on a blog review, and have very little context at all. At the same time the game world contains characters with several months worth of specialised skill training, doing incomprehensible things for exotic emergent reasons.
In summary, I expect to see a complete overhaul of the NPE towards the end of EE, shortly before general release.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Ryan's discussed this a little previously. In fact iirc, in this live-interview over at mmorpg.com he mentions he's a fan of Red Dead Redemption where your character is off doing things and learning coincidentally and all feels like it's your choice what you do, when you do, and how you do it... iirc that is!
This post in particular: New Player Experience - lessons learnt at EVE
- I think the point made is that new players should be doing useful stuff immediately at the scale of their experience, skill, pace and all the rest of it. Not waiting to hit a milestone BEFORE they get cracking.
Thanks for the links. I did a couple of quick searches for New Player Experience, but didn't page back far enough to find that thread.
Does anyone have a link showing where Goblinworks directly referred to the new player portion of PFO as a theme park, or was that an interpretation of Ryan's post cited above?
I agree that the first few waves of the EE will probably have a radically different NPE than Open Enrollment players. That's perfectly understandable. EE will be beta testing the NPE, even if many of the mechanics will be past the beta stage during EE.
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Goblin Squad Member
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If there are strong reasons for the major organizations to recruit and train new players, it becomes easier.
This is key, methinks.
The group within the group that does Recruiting and training of new players should hold prestige, and certain players should be well-known as excellent with newer players. The more this is fostered the better. If you make helping assimilate new players in interesting and meaningful ways that is rewarded and fostered, you will go a long way to dealing with this rather common situation.
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CEO, Goblinworks
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We don't have a plan for our NPE yet, other than having a plan to have a plan. Realistically, we're likely to be spending resources on systems and content for a long time before we can turn our attention to a really slick NPE.
I do want to make something kind of like Red Dead Redemption where you are given enough contextual clues that you're able to learn the game without feeling like you're in a "tutorial".
We, unlike EVE, get the advantage that most people who will play Pathfinder Online will already know how to use the basic mouse/keyboard control scheme. EVE's system is so radically different that they need a tutorial system to explain how to fly a ship.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I dont know I dont think every seasoned MMO'er finds tutorials etc.. a trap per se. I know I don't.
although that said beyond the blatantly obvious this is how you move, this is how you pick up a quest etc.. i find most tutorials are severely lacking in the information they convey.
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I find what turns people away the most is when a game doesn't conform to the player's pre-defined notions of what the game is and how it's played.
There was a lot of open criticism of the leveling experience in GW2 during it's betas because it was being played (mostly) by people who brought their WoW experience with them and found out that they couldn't level very well by playing GW2 as if it was WoW. (they just wanted to go from quest hub to quest hub and quickly found themselves drastically under-leveled)
In traditional MMORPGs, I found that each game had its own leveling curve. That whenever you played a new one, there were some fundamental differences. Having played UO didn't make EQ any less greek to the player, or AO, SWG, FFXI, RO, AC, and on. And for the most part, this was completely acceptable by people who played MMORPGs. But any time I tried to get friends into MMOs that weren't like WoW (their introduction to the genre), I noticed that they all tried to skip the initial learning curve
by playing as if they were playing WoW again. Any time that caused a conflict it would be interpreted as 'not fun' or frustrating, and the players quickly abandoned those games.
The biggest challenge for PFO is to get players past their default desire to play it as if it were many of the other MMOs of recent years. I'm not even sure if that's a realistic expectation - In my experience, the NPE turns people away - not by any fault of the game, but of the player. I wish Ryan and Co the best of luck with that. Ryan had a good point; at least character control will be similar to previous MMOs.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Good point clynx. This game, and others very much like it (in intent, at least), might have a small advantage over the "typical MMO", in that PFO is targeting a pretty narrow niche of players that are "obsessed with playing PFO". Most of the folks that come by for a nibble will probably be intrigued enough to play (especially if there is a post launch F2P period) and see what they think. PFO will not be competing with other grand scale MMOs, but smaller groups of like-minded players, and many PNP and tabletop converts.
MMOers are a pretty forgiving lot, for about an hour....if they get too frustrated, they bolt. But after they get personally invested, they bite off chunks of time, usually in 6-12 month blocks. That gives games like this time to mature (early patches and a few updates in the first year or so). The NPE and tutorial isn't ALWAYS a game maker or game breaker, but it can still have an effect. (See two examples below.)
I really had fun the first time I ran through Conan...it was easy to learn the controls and the combat seemed decent enough, but with rocks and broken bottles I couldn't really tell what combat would be like as my skills improved. Sadly, the NPE was the very same thing the second, and third time. And you couldn't leave the starter island until level 20. I didn't give the game much more time once I experienced the NPE thrice.
SWTOR wasn't much better. In the short run, the cut scenes were really cool. As a matter of fact, they were great throughout. But these were more of a single player experience. Granted, you could get a lotta juice out of all the single player leveling quests. My enjoyment was cut in half, as I had zero interest in playing an Imp. But I had five characters, and after the second one, the NPE got stale. The leveling path was the same throughout level 50. There were not any viable alternatives except the warzones, and the PvP Warzone experience was less than ideal. Lag was horrible (some said they didn't have an issue, but many, many reviews blamed the Hero engine...I dunno know all that, but my PvP experiences were a total lagfest).
So, those two lost me. NPE is an integral element, but we have a lot of time before we need to sweat that.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Sandbox MMOs have a trap at the opposite end of the game, with new players looking at all the possibilities and asking "What do I do first?"
There are several simple answers to this question:
1. Read
2. Experiment / Explore with a mock character for about an hour or two. You would be surprised at how much you can learn just by messing around with everything and not caring what happens during the time.
3. Train commonly used skills first.
4. Read some more
5. Set 3 short term goals; 2 medium term goals; 1 long term goal.
6. Plan backwards, beginning with the long term and finishing up with the last of the 3 short terms.
7. Put plan into action.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Well the thing is that documentation and player interaction will be the best. Have a wiki that is a new player guide, so that new players can read it and find out whats what outside of the game. Have an offical PfO wiki so if someone wants to look something up they can do so. After that i think it will be up to us the players to fill out the rest. I mean that say SUPERBANDIT loves being a bandit, so he creates a very good guide to how to be an effictive bandit. It could go over SAD and hideouts, consequences of being a bandit...etc. SUPERCRAFTER does the same but for crafting. SUPERMAYOR maybe goes over settlements.
Good guides should be rewarded in order to encourage people to write them. Maybe as long as they keep the guide current they get a free 7 day xp pass or something like that.
Over all the choices you make at the begining are pretty obvious and simple enough for a new character. A fighter fights, a wizard casts spells..etc. If they do the system like they describe then starting out things will be simply and grow into complexity as you move deeper into the game. This will allow someone to get into the game and then get to the point where they can understand the complex choices that you can do later.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Seem to be within hand. I think above all, the community being super helpful/positive is the best impression of an online game. Eg EVE University. The settlement hiring of new players has been mentioned additionally, which perhaps is the ideal link in-game for new players.
Quoted for awesomeness.
I loved EVE University, and it really helped me trying to figure out what I was doing/where I wanted to go. Some newbies might not like that style, but having the option available would really help some people.
Now I think about it, I don't have as much time to spend on games as in days of yore, so the hardcore PvP/RP stuff I normally like is probably not going to be as good a fit, and a University/learning centre type of establishment would be fun to be part of.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Sandbox MMOs have a trap at the opposite end of the game, with new players looking at all the possibilities and asking "What do I do first?"There are several simple answers to this question:
1. Read
2. Experiment / Explore with a mock character for about an hour or two. You would be surprised at how much you can learn just by messing around with everything and not caring what happens during the time.
3. Train commonly used skills first.
4. Read some more
5. Set 3 short term goals; 2 medium term goals; 1 long term goal.
6. Plan backwards, beginning with the long term and finishing up with the last of the 3 short terms.
7. Put plan into action.
I don't expect any of us to have this issue with PfO, but that does seem like great advice to pass along when Open Enrollment rolls around, and people who've never visited this messageboard find the game.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I mean that say SUPERBANDIT loves being a bandit, so he creates a very good guide to how to be an effictive bandit. It could go over SAD and hideouts, consequences of being a bandit...etc.
Good guides should be rewarded in order to encourage people to write them.
It is funny that you mention this, because I just happen to be working on a PFO Guide of Banditry, Pre Beta Ed. Vol 1
As for the reward, being able to assist new players to follow the path of Banditry is reward enough.
It seems unwise to me to start writing guides before the game's even out. There's plenty we still don't know.
But I agree, guides should be their own reward. Those who don't write them out of altruism will write them out of a wish to be well-regarded.
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Goblin Squad Member
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The more you do something, the better you get at it. Starting to write guides now is probably a good idea, from that perspective.
Having just one "official" player-run wiki seems like a good idea.
This might happen if Goblinworks decides to officially recognize one "official" wiki. But I guarantee you there will be a number of player-made wikis. Each will have their own strengths and weaknesses, and the players will choose which ones they like. It is very likely that there will be several that are used enough to be well-regarded by much of the community.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I hope that the amount of effort put into out-of-game education is at least mirrored in-game, and even moreso. I hate to see all of the effort outside of the game, if it isn't at least mirrored in-game. We want the community logged in and interacting! I want to roleplay with YOU, and you cannot do that if you are spending all of your time outside of the game.
Schools, universities, "tourist centers", etc. I would really like to see a role dedicated to educating others about the world and the various roles, sort of like the Maester in Song of Fire and Ice.
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Goblin Squad Member
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...I want to roleplay with YOU, and you cannot do that if you are spending all of your time outside of the game...Yes, yes, yes I understand your point about a troll incoming but I just want to finish reading this wiki article Nihimon just posted before.... A TROLL??!!
hehehe, exactly! *winks*
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Goblin Squad Member
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There will be no shortage of guides for PFO.
There will be no shortage of people who ignore these guides and then whine if something turns out to be not totally foolproof.
There will be people who will recommend that the whiners go and play WoW instead.
I hope that the amount of effort put into out-of-game education is at least mirrored in-game, and even moreso. I hate to see all of the effort outside of the game, if it isn't at least mirrored in-game. We want the community logged in and interacting! I want to roleplay with YOU, and you cannot do that if you are spending all of your time outside of the game.
Schools, universities, "tourist centers", etc. I would really like to see a role dedicated to educating others about the world and the various roles, sort of like the Maester in Song of Fire and Ice.
Wild definitely love to see such things in game. I really really hope we can write on scrolls and in books. If so it'll open up all kinds of cool possibilities.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Just how hard is this game supposed to be? Will it be very complex with a lot of depth and a long and steep learning curve ? Or is it going to be go click on this , now go click on that and your done , you now know all about smithing. I want it to be very hard with a lot to learn. So what if it takes an hour to figure out all you need to do to make something that is a high level item. Its called playing the game. The WoW type method of quick rewards to keep people playing is not what I want to see.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I do want to make something kind of like Red Dead Redemption where you are given enough contextual clues that you're able to learn the game without feeling like you're in a "tutorial".
I really like what L4D did with their tutorial. All of the domain knowledge you need is demonstrated in a narrative trailer--the weapons, the boss mobs and their capabilities, car alarms, etc. All of the conceptual information you need is likewise demonstrated: pair-tactics to deal with being pinned/smoked, team tactics for the tank, horde tactics, etc.
While it's a very different game genre, and I'm not sure about using a trailer, I think the principle of naturalistic instruction through narrative (likely participatory narrative) is powerful.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Just how hard is this game supposed to be? Will it be very complex with a lot of depth and a long and steep learning curve ? Or is it going to be go click on this , now go click on that and your done , you now know all about smithing. I want it to be very hard with a lot to learn. So what if it takes an hour to figure out all you need to do to make something that is a high level item. Its called playing the game. The WoW type method of quick rewards to keep people playing is not what I want to see.
To be frank I dunno. I think it may be more challenging in several ways at least, simply because it isn't themepark, save apparently at the very beginning. My hope is that if this early mini-themepark experience is effectively fabricated then most of the basics will be shared with the new player, with intimations of what they have to look forward to.
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CEO, Goblinworks
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There are all sorts of problems with sandbox games due to their unstructured nature that are not a factor of "complexity". They're a factor of "what am I supposed to be doing". Theme park games have evolved a very simple system for dealing with this issue - you go to the guy with the "!" mark, you get a quest, you look on the map and figure out where to go to do the quest. If you want variety, talk to a number of "!"s.
Sandbox games overwhelm players. They could craft. Or harvest. Or explore. Or fight. Or socialize. But none of those things are automatically prioritized by the game over the others. And it is often not clear that the way you become good at the game is by being useful to someone else first - so being a harvester allows you to make the connections you need to gain access to exploration, etc.
Finding ways to clue in players as to how to accomplish long-term goals from the start is a challenge most sandbox games struggle with and we'll have our share of struggles.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Finding ways to clue in players as to how to accomplish long-term goals from the start is a challenge most sandbox games struggle with and we'll have our share of struggles.
I'm hoping you use something similar to EvE's certificate system. That system alone was what I believe helped turn EvE around, what about 2 years ago?
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Goblin Squad Member
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Finding ways to clue in players as to how to accomplish long-term goals from the start is a challenge most sandbox games struggle with and we'll have our share of struggles.I'm hoping you use something similar to EvE's certificate system. That system alone was what I believe helped turn EvE around, what about 2 years ago?
Even tho I am dropping my EVE accounts, I have really enjoyed the certificate system. It has helped my skill sets tremendously.
For those of you who don't know what it is, it is a system put in place that provides players a set of skills that, when completed, awards a certificate of various levels of expertise. It helps guide players when they can't decide what skill to trian for next, and it gives players corporations a way to set goals for members, or even applicants. It has proven useful to many corporations designing training manuals (done within the game, not made by the developer) that guide the first several months of a players "career".
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CEO, Goblinworks
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The certificate system was needed because the character development system in EVE was allowed to go haywire. Over time different designers added their own twists to basic systems and added new basic systems without an overall mandate to remain harmonious, and so the game became virtually impenetrable. This was considered a FEATURE by quite a few players (and not a few CCP employes). It was a barrier to mastery, which meant that if you bothered to untangle all the threads you could gain substantial advantages vs. your opponents.
But from the perspective of new player acquisition it was a nightmare. Far too many people failed to engage with the game because they just couldn't figure out what skills to train to do the things they wanted to do, or couldn't figure out how to get the right synergies between various skills to be competitive. So they quit.
The certificate system essentially gives you a roadmap so you can skip the mastery part and just train the skills someone else has decided make the most sense.
I would not say certificates "turned around" EVE. They were introduced just before EVE went into a huge slump. EVE grew at a very good rate through 2010, when it flatlined because the development of the game was sidetracked in pursuit of bringing avatar based gameplay to the game, and in pursuit of a variety of non-core, specialist interests which happened to be the interests of the leadership on the development team.
CCP has replaced that leadership, and the new team is focused on making the "flying in space" game as awesome as it can, fixing many longstanding bugs, making things work better and more harmoniously, and continuing to expand the systems' capacity for large multiplayer fleet combat. As a result, acquisitions have again begun to grow. It was not any one thing, but a collection of focused effort across a broad front that could be defined as "getting their s+$% together".
RyanD
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Goblin Squad Member
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The certificate system was needed because the character development system in EVE was allowed to go haywire. Over time different designers added their own twists to basic systems and added new basic systems without an overall mandate to remain harmonious, and so the game became virtually impenetrable. This was considered a FEATURE by quite a few players (and not a few CCP employes). It was a barrier to mastery, which meant that if you bothered to untangle all the threads you could gain substantial advantages vs. your opponents.
But from the perspective of new player acquisition it was a nightmare. Far too many people failed to engage with the game because they just couldn't figure out what skills to train to do the things they wanted to do, or couldn't figure out how to get the right synergies between various skills to be competitive. So they quit.
The certificate system essentially gives you a roadmap so you can skip the mastery part and just train the skills someone else has decided make the most sense.
I would not say certificates "turned around" EVE. They were introduced just before EVE went into a huge slump. EVE grew at a very good rate through 2010, when it flatlined because the development of the game was sidetracked in pursuit of bringing avatar based gameplay to the game, and in pursuit of a variety of non-core, specialist interests which happened to be the interests of the leadership on the development team.
CCP has replaced that leadership, and the new team is focused on making the "flying in space" game as awesome as it can, fixing many longstanding bugs, making things work better and more harmoniously, and continuing to expand the systems' capacity for large multiplayer fleet combat. As a result, acquisitions have again begun to grow. It was not any one thing, but a collection of focused effort across a broad front that could be defined as "getting their s%*$ together".
RyanD
That pretty well sums it up.
Eve went into a "slump" because:
- They focused on the Avatar system that noone really wanted, seriously walking in stations and not space ships??
- They decided to go Free to play with microtransactions which noone wanted
- Left bugged systems in place for years, assault frigates anyone?
- Didnt listen to their players, reasonable requests to not do the above
Their slump was more of a mass exodus. Once they got their S*** together some of the old players including myself came back to the game. Since then they have improved, but some of the same ol same ol things persist. Now of course they are doing the ship balancing which is... making all ships as good as the other. Maybe good maybe not.
The certificate system was needed because the character development system in EVE was allowed to go haywire. Over time different designers added their own twists to basic systems and added new basic systems without an overall mandate to remain harmonious, and so the game became virtually impenetrable. This was considered a FEATURE by quite a few players (and not a few CCP employes). It was a barrier to mastery, which meant that if you bothered to untangle all the threads you could gain substantial advantages vs. your opponents.
But from the perspective of new player acquisition it was a nightmare. Far too many people failed to engage with the game because they just couldn't figure out what skills to train to do the things they wanted to do, or couldn't figure out how to get the right synergies between various skills to be competitive. So they quit.
The certificate system essentially gives you a roadmap so you can skip the mastery part and just train the skills someone else has decided make the most sense.
I would not say certificates "turned around" EVE. They were introduced just before EVE went into a huge slump. EVE grew at a very good rate through 2010, when it flatlined because the development of the game was sidetracked in pursuit of bringing avatar based gameplay to the game, and in pursuit of a variety of non-core, specialist interests which happened to be the interests of the leadership on the development team.
CCP has replaced that leadership, and the new team is focused on making the "flying in space" game as awesome as it can, fixing many longstanding bugs, making things work better and more harmoniously, and continuing to expand the systems' capacity for large multiplayer fleet combat. As a result, acquisitions have again begun to grow. It was not any one thing, but a collection of focused effort across a broad front that could be defined as "getting their s~!! together".
RyanD
Ah, that explains a lot. Before I left Eve in 2010 I had been hearing that they planned on having avatars added to the game. When I returned in late 2012 I saw that they have avatars, but they are kinda purposeless and I couldn't figure out how being able to walk from your ship cabin out to the docking bay helped the game in any way. :p. now I understand. I must say the avatars are well done and the ships cabin is quite well designed. But pretty useless unless you want to gaze at your avatar lol.
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CEO, Goblinworks
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CCP has good data that says its growth is limited by the fact that many people simply can't get the sense of immersion they need without being able to visualize themselves as human avatars. I believe that data to be accurate.
CCP has an aesthetic design mandate to push boundaries on graphic technology. They are not content to simply be good, they need to be "great" when it comes to graphics - especially in EVE.
They spent a massive amount of time and effort making a world-class avatar system. It was so world class that it didn't run on most of the computers used by its customers. And it required so much work to make assets for it that the company was having problems financing the team making things like clothing in addition to everything else it was producing.
After pounding away on this problem for 5 years they have finally decided to cut their losses. They shipped the least amount of their avatar system they could, and enabled players to turn it off if their systems couldn't run even that. And then they stopped most work on it and redeployed that staff back to the "flying in space" part of EVE.
Someday they may have the ability to deploy a full "walking in stations" avatar mode of game play into EVE, and that will be a big help to them in terms of growth. But it may never offset the loss in momentum they suffered while they tried to build technology too early.
It was a very good example of making a data-driven decision that is internally logical and failing because they didn't have the engineering or management required to succeed. It was really their first real "failure" as a company and it was quite a shock to the whole system.
RyanD
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Goblin Squad Member
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Some interesting information I didnt know about. I just remember everyone getting p'ed off that they devoted so much time to that avatar system and kept ignoring the bugs that had been in game from the beginning.
They used that system for Dust If I remember right, and planned to use it for White Wolf.
CCP will eventually be able to implement it in since they have Dust in the Eve world now.
But hey, arent we supposed to be talking about PFO lol.
So I think there are alot of lessons learned from CCP that can be capitalized on. Dont make PFO into Spelljammer.
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Goblin Squad Member
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So, the issues with new player experiences in EVE are:
-less then specific and non-frank, gauntlet of text, tutorials.
-an overload of options and lack of direction resulting in a "what am I supposed to do?" complex.
-a steep learning curve for those who decide on a direction to take, a "how am I supposed to do that?" complex.
-and, (generally) a player based that finds it difficult, (or just tiresome) to aid new players.
-vets who try to scam new players, or use them as fodder.
Right, back to PFO then.
So assuming the above are the big things to avoid for new player experiences in a sandbox MMO,
what kind of early experience/tutorial shall PFO strive to create?
I don't see the last 2 issues being a problem in PFO. There are already player factions that have made helping new players part of their mandate.
I don't see the learning curve being an issue either. Prior blog posts have already mentioned that PFO will have certificate like milestone markers in the form of sudo-feat things. And the helpful early core player base should make new players finding a direction/niche a limited problem as well. A built in character planner or recommended training system might help this also, but can probably wait until the end of beta of even until after release.
It seems to me the main system that has yet to be worked out is the built in tutorial. It would be nice to see a series of early missions that showcase all the game systems and features to new players while networking them to the pre-established NPC starter factions over the course of the quest line. Clear, concise text instructions or perhaps cut-scene style explanations would be nice to see.
The trick well be to streamline the educational bits into making a player self-scientific and/or into joining a chartered company.
Putting systems in place to help/encourage players to group-up in a meaningful way is as I see it, a tool that has a lot of limits. Tools, systems and tutorials can help quite a bit, but the largest factor in a good new player experience is the player community. Especially in a sandbox MMO. That is (as I see it) Eve's biggest shortfall on the new player front as well as other sandboxes.
With the sure dedication and devotion the player base this game already has, and shows continually here on the message boards, I don't see negative new player experiences being much of a problem, but having other helpful early systems are only a boon.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Dont make PFO into Spelljammer.
I wouldnt mind playing Spelljammer Online! That brings back memories. Some happy, others ... not so much. *twitch twitch*
As far as the NPE goes, I feel that having some missions/quests in game really helps the transition from themepark mentality to sandbox mentality. EVE and SWG have rather repetitive quests/missions, but they give players something clearcut to do (go kill/get X, come back and get Y reward). Players will eventually get bored of the repetition and start asking 'what next?'. But by then theyll have grasped the basics of the game, the skills and combat and can jump into something a bit more complex. Plus I enjoy having something that I can do solo when I only have 20 mins or so online at odd hours of the day.
It would also be helpful if the player could find the 'New Player Friendly' kingdoms/CCs/players through an in-game means that is clearly communicated. I expect there will be a 'Rookie' channel, but those channels can get swamped and information lost, which can make it offputting at times. Perhaps a guildhouse in the NPC settlements that posts NPF CC info?
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Goblin Squad Member
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I have a concern that the effect of beginning as a themepark transitioning into sandbox may prove problematic for at least some players.
As reference I would cite Age of Conan. The first seventeen to twenty levels on the island of Tortuge were beautifully complete as a themepark, to the point that those levels were nearly worth the price of admission. But suddenly, once the introductory area was complete, the player was thrust into a far less polished experience. Abruptly the player had to concern himself with social interaction and find his way through a much less hospitable experience.
There was significant disappointment after level twenty.
I think the transition from themepark to sandbox will be a critical phase that will require careful game design and constructive role engineering to encourage and nurture the player while weaning him or her into the liberation that sandboxing can mean. The game should nurture and instruct the player to empower their experience from dependence on the themepark for entertainment to independent and meaningful player interaction in the sandbox.
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Goblin Squad Member
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What New Player Experience Will Probably Look Like:
Step One: Generate Character Avatar - this should be detailed, a well designed MMO allows for players to spend more than a few minutes doing this. STO, COH, EvE have great avatar generation.
Step Two: Expend starter skill ponts, on whatever basic skills the player chooses.
Step Three: All Characters start as True Neutral; Begin Tutorial Quest.
Step Four: Tutorial Quest will teach the basic mechanics of the game, and will allow the players to make choices in the quest that will direct them towards the desired alignment.
Step Five: Exit into the River Kingdoms in the appropriate starter town and with the skills and alignment the player wished to start with.
I doubt PFO will be all that complex and confusing. Fantasy MMOs tend to be straight forward, unlike Sci Fi based MMOs.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I have a concern that the effect of beginning as a themepark transitioning into sandbox may prove problematic for at least some players.
As reference I would cite Age of Conan. The first seventeen to twenty levels on the island of Tortuge were beautifully complete as a themepark, to the point that those levels were nearly worth the price of admission. But suddenly, once the introductory area was complete, the player was thrust into a far less polished experience. Abruptly the player had to concern himself with social interaction and find his way through a much less hospitable experience.
There was significant disappointment after level twenty.
I think the transition from themepark to sandbox will be a critical phase that will require careful game design and constructive role engineering to encourage and nurture the player while weaning him or her into the liberation that sandboxing can mean. The game should nurture and instruct the player to empower their experience from dependence on the themepark for entertainment to independent and meaningful player interaction in the sandbox.
Ideally the more traditional themepark content, eg quests to join-up with npc alliances etc will be in starter towns (this perhaps shifts your alignment) and/or additionally new players can go to settlements they might join and do more of this stuff from there or start contributing to the settlement as teams of gathers/harvesters for example and generally mucking in? Ideally floating along at a nice pace, instead of being caught by a rip-tide and yanked, screaming into the blue abyss!
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Goblin Squad Member
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The NPE needs to connect new players with existing players asap. Social interaction should be there from the beginning. Some MUDs I've experienced have done this pretty well. If I remember correctly Dragonrealms had a guild dedicated to new players, along with a guildhouse where new players could go and ask questions. There were also reglar seminars about aspects of the game. All of these involved actual interaction with other players.
Maybe a short tutorial, but then get the new players interacting with existing players quickly.
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Goblin Squad Member
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As someone who usually spends a good chunk of game time helping new players, I agree with Elorebaen. The faster you can connect new players with newbie-friendly vets, the faster they will learn the game, feel accepted, and put down roots. Often, all new players really need is someone they can ask questions of.
On the flip side, as someone who tends to make quite a few alts for plot/story-lines, I don't want to have to run through the same tutorial every time I make a new character.