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Alchemical Weapon (Su): At 2nd level, a grenadier can infuse a weapon or piece of ammunition with a single harmful alchemical liquid or powder, such as alchemist’s fire or sneezing powder, as a move action. This action consumes the alchemical item, but transfers its effect to the weapon in question. The alchemical item takes full effect on the next creature struck by the weapon, but does not splash, spread, or otherwise affect additional targets. Any extra damage added is treated like bonus dice of damage, and is not doubled on a critical hit. The alchemical treatment causes no harm to the weapon treated, and wears off 1 minute after application if no blow is struck. At 6th level, a grenadier can use her alchemical weapon ability as a swift action. At 15th level, this ability becomes a free action. This ability replaces poison resistance.
Bomb (Su): In addition to magical extracts, alchemists are adept at swiftly mixing various volatile chemicals and infusing them with their magical reserves to create powerful bombs that they can hurl at their enemies. An alchemist can use a number of bombs each day equal to his class level + his Intelligence modifier. Bombs are unstable, and if not used in the round they are created, they degrade and become inert—their method of creation prevents large volumes of explosive material from being created and stored. In order to create a bomb, the alchemist must use a small vial containing an ounce of liquid catalyst—the alchemist can create this liquid catalyst from small amounts of chemicals from an alchemy lab, and these supplies can be readily refilled in the same manner as a spellcaster’s component pouch. Most alchemists create a number of catalyst vials at the start of the day equal to the total number of bombs they can create in that day—once created, a catalyst vial remains usable by the alchemist for years.
Drawing the components of, creating, and throwing a bomb requires a standard action that provokes an attack of opportunity. Thrown bombs have a range of 20 feet and use the Throw Splash Weapon special attack. Bombs are considered weapons and can be selected using feats such as Point-Blank Shot and Weapon Focus. On a direct hit, an alchemist’s bomb inflicts 1d6 points of fire damage + additional damage equal to the alchemist’s Intelligence modifier. The damage of an alchemist’s bomb increases by 1d6 points at every odd-numbered alchemist level (this bonus damage is not multiplied on a critical hit or by using feats such as Vital Strike). Splash damage from an alchemist bomb is always equal to the bomb’s minimum damage (so if the bomb would deal 2d6+4 points of fire damage on a direct hit, its splash damage would be 6 points of fire damage). Those caught in the splash damage can attempt a Reflex save for half damage. The DC of this save is equal to 10 + 1/2 the alchemist’s level + the alchemist’s Intelligence modifier.
Alchemists can learn new types of bombs as discoveries (see the Discovery ability) as they level up. An alchemist’s bomb, like an extract, becomes inert if used or carried by anyone else.
I really need some serious answers to the above question.
It is affecting one of my PFS characters quite badly.As it is now, EVERY GM I talk to seems to have their own "interpretation" on how Alchemist's Bombs works (some consider it a weapon, some consider it a splash weapon and others consider it an Alchemical Weapon.)
Option are also split on how the bombs interact with the Grenadier's Alchemical Weapon ability. (Some allow it, others don't.)
So my questions are:
1) Are an Alchemist's Bombs, weapons? (As in Weapons, not splash/alchemical/special liquid/Bombs... etc.)
2) Does the Grenadier's Alchemical Weapon work on an Alchemist's Bombs?
I REALLY need firm answers on this. It is just so hard to enjoy a character when what the class can do is called into question, EVERY time he is being played.
I know some rules are meant to be interpenetrated by the GM, but Bombs are one of the Alchemist class fundamental abilities, yet there seem to be no certain view on the matter.
Please help.
Didn't James Jacobs just answer this question?
But you might could use a Fuse Grenade if your GM is willing.
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1- you quoted the passage that answers your own question. yes they are weapons (they are all the other things you listed too. None of that makes them not a weapon)
2- RAW it does in fact read that you can inject more fire (or acid etc) into your bombs. "Bombs are considered weapons," " a grenadier can infuse a weapon..."
As far as game balance is concerned: taking a move action and paying 10gp per bomb to add 1d6 extra damage is mediocre at low level and terrible after level8 when you could throw multiple bombs per round instead.
It's strange how many GMs cry foul at the odd classes trying to eek out an extra few points of DPR, but have no problem with the standard fighters and barbarians who still out damage them by half. Playing with numerous different GMs is the greatest challenge of playing pfs. We have our books of rules and everyone interprets them slightly different, but a GM trying to nerf your class usually has nothing to do with the rules. It's about the bad day they just had at work.
I don't have the book the grenadier information is in, please tell me the name of the book, but from the information you gave. I'd say yes they are weapons for the purpose of feats so they are weapons for the purpose of the class feature. In my opinion they are all three weapons, splash weapons, and alchemical weapons. The bomb class feature says they are weapons for the purpose of weapon feats, they use the thrown splash weapon rules, and they are alchemical in nature.
So to put it simply, in my opinion, the answer to both of the questions is yes.
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1) Are an Alchemist's Bombs, weapons? (As in Weapons, not splash/alchemical/special liquid/Bombs... etc.)
2) Does the Grenadier's Alchemical Weapon work on an Alchemist's Bombs?
The rules you quoted (and bolded) above answer your questions. There's no other references to point to but:
1) Bombs are weapons. They are also splash weapons but not alchemical. "Weapon" is the top-level descriptor; it can have multiple other descriptors. (piercing, magic, fire, alchemical, splash, etc.)2) Not for your PFS character, but probably not for the reasons people have been telling you:
Drawing the components of, creating, and throwing a bomb requires a standard action that provokes an attack of opportunity. . . Bombs are unstable, and if not used in the round they are created, they degrade and become inert
It's a move action to infuse a weapon at 1st level. You can't do it while drawing, creating, and throwing bombs as a standard action. It is debatable whether or not you would be able to do it at 15th level (when it's a free action) but that won't be an issue for PFS play.
My take is that bombs are just flasks until you use an action to create and throw them. Thus, they are not weapons until you've created them.
As with all ambiguous corner cases, I strongly recommend not using it in PFS.
While I think the rules here are pretty clear (that bombs are treated as weapons, and thus eligible for infusion with the alchemical weapon supernatural ability), there is one glitch to consider.
Creating AND throwing a bomb is ONE action.
Drawing the components of, creating, and throwing a bomb requires a standard action that provokes an attack of opportunity.
As far as I know, you cannot take a move action in the middle of a standard action. You can take the move action before your standard action, in which case you don't yet have a bomb to work with, or you can take it after your standard action, in which case you've already thrown your bomb.
At 6th level, you can use alchemical weapon as a swift action, which I still think cannot interrupt your standard action used to create and throw the bomb.
At 15th level, you can use the ability as a free action. As far as I know, you could at this point use alchemical weapon in conjunction with the bombs ability. But also 15th level is post-PFS, right?
Hope this has been helpful.
Basically, I think that bombs count as weapons, pretty clearly by RAW, but still don't work with the grenadier's alchemical weapon ability due to the timing of the abilities.
edit: Cheapy and Belafon got there first. :)
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Didn't James Jacobs just answer this question?
The answers are concerning infusing a weapon with a Bomb or Tanglefoot bag.
My question is if a Bomb itself is a weapon that can be infused by acid/alchemical fire... etcAs with all ambiguous corner cases, I strongly recommend not using it in PFS.
I know. I just talked to my VC and decided to change my character to a class that does not have so much ambiguous rules.
On a related note:
My VC told me of how multi-classing 1 level into Gunslinger gives you an Alchemist that can at lv 5 do 5d6+1d6+(Int mod) of damage via a range touch attack.
2d6(from bombs via Explosive Missile) + 2d6(via Alchemical Weapon (Su) infusing a flask of Hybridization Funneled - Alchemical Fire & Acid + 1d6 from Alchemical Fire's 2nd round effect + 1d6 from the firearm itself + Ind mod via the throw anything/bombs ability of the Alchemist.
For a grand total of 6d6s with Int mod damage all via a single range touch at just level 5...
Action costs: 1 Standard, 1 move.
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Ok James Jacobs has spoken. You CANNOT infuse Splash Weapons like Bombs, with Alchemical Weapon (Su)
Read all about it HERE.
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As always, please remember that James Jacobs (especially in his ask JJ thread) is speaking for himself, how he would rule in a home game. He is NOT - and he stresses this multiple times - one of the developers who makes official rulings for Paizo. If you go back and read enough of that thread you'll see a few things he suggests that later get contradicted by Jason, SKR, or (for PFS) Mark.
Having said that, your rules reasoning is above :)