|
Our concept of leveling seems to be heavily influenced by modern (or old school) video games. But Pathfinder is not a video game. Its a simulation of something more. So, once a character (or party) has earned enough Xp to level up, when does that moment of accession occur?
Instantly
At the end of the fight or encounter
After a solid rest (8 hours)
After a short rest/meditation/prayer/study
Do you have to train to earn your new class features
...or is level more subtle than that? I know I personally tally up xp in-between sessions. If the characters have earned enough, they do it before game and it really doesn't have a "moment" in my games. They are just suddenly capable of new things. In solo games I have run, I have had a player gain his class features and skill points slowly (and not all at once).
What about you? How do handle leveling "in game", or how has leveling been handled in games have you been in?
I do leveling like you, out of game, between sessions.
Same.
The general assumption is that PCs are during downtime, offscreen time, etc., practicing, training, studying, improving. Unless something unusually bizarre is occurring - a complete retraining, for example - it's all somewhat unspoken, and "leveling up" is less "learning new skills" and more "eureka moment where all the stuff I've been practicing suddenly clicks". The Wizard's been tinkering on that new spell for weeks, but he finally figured it out and mastered it. The Fighter's been training on that new maneuver for days on end or longer. The Rogue's got a new trick up her sleeve. Etc. etc. etc.
Depending on the character and the concept sometimes I have it happen in game. "You suddenly feel an incredible burst of Iomedae's favor and power wash over you." Other times it's in between sessions, and is written into the narrative as nothing more than finally being able to perfect something they'd been practicing periodically as they adventured (like a two-handed fighter's 3rd level Overhand Chop ability); much like Orthos stated. If a character multi-classes I always make sure we can come up with a quality in-story reason for the class dip or switch. Sometimes these even happen when a character gains a new interesting ability. I had a barbarian that decided to go beast totem rage powers, and we actually had him become fascinated with beastly warriors that were bodyguards to a druid circle they were working with. He hung around them all day, and they initiated him into their society by having him stand naked (to be one with the animals of course) in vigil underneath the giant wooden totem of their primal spirit god. While he stood vigil some of the warriors took turns pelting him with blunted blowgun darts (doing nonlethal damage) to see if he had the perseverance to stay the course. It was a lot to go through just to get claw attacks, but all the players at the table felt it was a great narrative moment to explain how gaining claws might occur.
I will tally the xp after the session is over. If anyone achieves a new level, I will let them know that they have the xp for the next level. However, they may only level up if they have the opportunity to have a full rest.
For example, the group is currently exploring an old cathedral that is the heart of a foul cult. After defeating some creatures on the property, then getting past the gatekeeper and the door trap, the Paladin and Monk have enough xp to advance to 13th level.
Since they are in the middle of a "working day" then they do not level up. The next time they run off and hide/camp for the night, assuming they are not interrupted, then they can level up.
The actual act of rolling hit points and adjusting the character is always done between sessions, however.
Now, there is no true "storytelling" reason why I make them wait. It is more of a practical issue. While I like the idea of "Iomedae blesses you" after a fight, it is simply easier for me to do the tally after the session as well as not have to interrupt the session while a player levels up. With about 2 and a half hours of play time per week, the actual adventuring take priority over all else.
Years ago, during the time of D&D 1e and 2e the PC's would have to train to level up, but that went out a long time ago. I agree with Orthos on his sentiment.
I do like how MendedWall12 handled the new class feature though.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
My campaigns level by plot, so there are specific points in the story that are designed to be where leveling up will occur.
If the PCs decide to go sandboxing it, I just start sandboxing the leveling.
I gave up on XP a while ago.
Interesting, everyone has their own method, in our group the GM reads out how much xp everyone gets after each encounter and we do the math on our sheets, and if after an encounter someone has enough xp to level, then they go ahead and level right away while the rest of us talk about random stuff, or tell funny stories of recent events.
It usually pans out to "they level at the end of the game" but sometimes a level comes during a session and then we just do it then. Especially if they're progressing faster than I thought they would, no reason for them to be under-leveled fighting certain things.
|
|
lol Adamantine.
I typically give out uneven exp to my players and welcome players who level up during session (as long as they're knowledgeable about the game). Sometimes I require training. Sometimes I require rest. Other times I give out exp at the end of the session and pc's level up then....and then sometimes I just level everybody up without a need for exp, or purely due to a plot circumstance. I often follow one or two of these methods as is best suited for the playgroup at the time, then throw wrenches in their expectations that ruin their plans...or make them feel super awesome (plot level up for a pc).
In the campaign I run, the players level up based on the arc (I also got rid of the EXP aspect for this campaign).
Otherwise, we've always played that you level up when you've had a full night's rest after getting enough EXP (no sudden gain of spells and such).
It depends, and it varies.
Typically I require at least 8 hours of rest, and preferably between moments of tension. Resting *in* a dungeon typically doesn't qualify, but traveling between locations probably does. When at all possible I like to give my players downtime to justify certain increases ("I just put 4 ranks in Linguistics.. is that okay?") and use new abilities (such as craft feats) before moving on.
There have been times when I've let the party level-up essentially between combats, but these were pretty poignant moments where it just made sense in terms of the storyline. For example, I let a player level up so that he could take his first level of Paladin after getting the killing blow on a fiend. It was a very meaningful moment for a character who had started out as a pretty callous rogue, but who outgrew his selfish ways and found his true calling during the course of the first couple adventures. And since I was splitting XP evenly, everyone leveled up at the same time. This actually got the players really excited and focused, which is always a good thing.
Sometimes I'll let the party level early, sort of "on credit", if they're close and the timing is really appropriate.
And, lately, my group has been quite happy dropping the concept of XP entirely and just leveling when appropriate, like Adamantine mentioned above. It's a tradeoff, but so far we've all been enjoying it.
I normally do it between sessions, but if we are in a really long game I have allowed my players to level mid session.
the main thing at my table, when they level, become in a search of knowledges... they must seek for some one who can teach him the new technique, style, feat, spell, etc and they only get the HD, BAB, and Saves for the level and thats all
the feats and skills must be learned in other way.
Our gaming group is really all over the board when it comes to methods of XP. We have 3 regular GM's and switch between each other every few months.
When I run games, it's almost always between sessions, but it sometimes differs between campaigns. My players are usually assumed to have been studying all along and when they earn enough XP they finally are finished with their studies and practices and what not.
Once, memorably, during a VERY close battle, the party got the last 50 xp they needed to reach level 2. I let them get the extra HP and BaB's right then, but skill points, spells, feats, etc. had to wait until they had time to rest.
Another game I ran went a different way, where XP was gathered in character from encounters and monster's directly, described as absorbing green motes of light from enemies, or sudden aura's surrounding them when they completed non-combat objectives. In that one they leveled by merely picking a class to level in and it boosted them by premade templates immediately.
One of the GM's whose games I play in usually doesn't pay much attention to XP at all, which is frustrating when we go far too long without leveling, but also rewarding when we sometimes level after only a few sessions. I'm somewhat ambivalent about the approach in general. I'd feel more confident in the leveling schedule he makes if it were based on any sort of equivalency to the encounters we finish or more like the Paizo AP's leveling guidelines, instead of just whenever he feels like it.
The other GM I usually play under is somewhere between these two methods. We don't always gain xp each session, but he usually does some calculations every 3 or 4 sessions to figure out the general amount we should be getting. Our current game is more abstract, since he ran through just a few bits of the first book of Council of Thieves in 2 sessions, basically starting us on the second book somewhat over leveled for it. We were told not to expect to level for a good long while until the AP catches up with us, and in the meantime he's been adjusting CR's trying to dial us in, which has been quite a ride when its high :)
I don't think there's really any single answer, since we've all been satisfied with each of the games :)
I prefer the training method of leveling from earlier editions.
That sed, depending on the situaition leveling on the fly so to speak can also happen.
I greatly favor a sandbox style game and uneven XP awards and leveling most defenitly happen. The training method of leveling tends to narow the group's level range discourageing them from biteing off more than the whole group can chew.
Typically between sessions to reduce or eliminate rushed choices when leveling up. As a DM, there have been a select few times I allowed the players to level up between two combats in the same day when I thought they were having a particularly hard time.
As every DM I play with has done away with XP, I have hard time seeing the appeal that it has for some.
With all the experience dealing with plot based leveling, there seems to be no boon to the XP system, that I can still see.
Am I missing something?
For me, the advantage of the XP system is it's consistency. I like to know beyond any doubt that I'm earning reward equal to my risk. If the enemies are tougher than usual, their CR is higher which means they're worth more XP. Without XP, if the enemies are tougher, the reward is no higher for the more difficult content, and there's a lot more risk of a character dying.
All XP is handed out the moment it is gained, and you can level up immediately. Middle of the boss fight and you down a minion, which pushes you into the next level? Level up!
LOL, no. I couldn't imagine doing that lol. We do it between sessions. Even if they're in a dungeon and didn't rest.
I've just recently been transitioning from XP to plot based and I like it much more.
|
For me, the advantage of the XP system is it's consistency. I like to know beyond any doubt that I'm earning reward equal to my risk. If the enemies are tougher than usual, their CR is higher which means they're worth more XP. Without XP, if the enemies are tougher, the reward is no higher for the more difficult content, and there's a lot more risk of a character dying.As every DM I play with has done away with XP, I have hard time seeing the appeal that it has for some.
With all the experience dealing with plot based leveling, there seems to be no boon to the XP system, that I can still see.
Am I missing something?
I see. The PC has no awareness of this though. It's a metagame reward.
Without the the metagame rewards, you can have your PC react more naturally. If it's too powerful, you run, or talk your way out of it.
Advancing the story becomes the focus, and not killing the next monster.
No XP farming.
No one says, "I want to slay this Ogre, but I should go into the forest first, and kill some boars first".
|
I do mine between session, however, there are some stipulations. If we stopped the game at a resting point, everything advances as per the new level. But, if we stopped in the middle of an adventuring day, spells wait until the next day (preparation/meditation), new HP wait until any pre-existing wounds are healed (had a player in one campaign make it an entire level without ever being fully healed, so he had an incredible hp jump when he did). x/day powers or abilities don't show up until the next rest period.
I see. The PC has no awareness of this though. It's a metagame reward.Without the the metagame rewards, you can have your PC react more naturally. If it's too powerful, you run, or talk your way out of it.
Advancing the story becomes the focus, and not killing the next monster.
No XP farming.
No one says, "I want to slay this Ogre, but I should go into the forest first, and kill some boars first".
I can see how that kind of metagaming would be annoying, but we've never had a problem with it in our groups games with XP. It was mentioned once, but only in jest right after the GM laid out a map for a bandit hideout. 'Time to leave and come back later!' He threatened rocks falling... We had a good laugh and went on with the bandit clearing.
Actually, come to think of it I'm not sure that kind of metagaming is necessarily limited to just XP games. If I'm only getting leveled at GM fiat, unless the leveling schedule is explicit and open (and thus far none of the games I've been in without XP have been so,) a player could potentially decide to look into a side quest and see if that gets us a level, just the same as hunting down a few monsters for that last bit of XP in an XP game. Of course, In an xp game, the player is more likely to metagame that way when he's REALLY close to leveling already.
As far as run/talk/diplomacy/combat goes, giving the same XP for non-combat resolutions can help to cut down on some players meta-agression. That doesn't work for all groups, of course.
I can't say that XP farming or other meta behaviors have been a problem in our groups either way, but GM fiat leveling is a good solution to those problems. I've run and played games both ways, and I prefer to receive XP as a player, and lean slightly towards GM fiat as a GM, at least if I have an AP I'm running; the handy guidelines help me a lot more to keep things on even pace, as our group completes adventures at a somewhat inconsistent pacing.