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Is it allowed? Is it possible?
you talking in general or PFS ?
RAW you can PAO into a dragon let alone a giant
In general, per the RAW.
I ask because Giant Form isn't listed among the options of Greater Polymorph, which Polymorph Any Object references.
In general, per the RAW.
yep by RAW PAO can do almost anything
As to you example
Human -> Giant
Same Kingdom +5
Same Class +2 (both are humanoid)
Same Size +0 (they are not the same size)
Related +0 (they are not related unless the human has a giant in their lineage)
Same or lower intelligence +2 (varies but would probably be the case)
Total 5+2+2 = 9
Permanent change from Human to Giant as long as the human high a higher int than the giant or the human has giant in their lineage e.g. from the heritage feat.
In general, per the RAW.
I ask because Giant Form isn't listed among the options of Greater Polymorph, which Polymorph Any Object references.
If your referring to this line
"This spell can also be used to duplicate the effects of baleful polymorph, greater polymorph, flesh to stone, stone to flesh, transmute mud to rock, transmute metal to wood, or transmute rock to mud"
I believe that is there to allow for a quick play guideline. It doesn't say PAO can ONLY duplicate these effects. it just says can ALSO be used
I might be mistaken but I have a feeling giant form may have been published after greater poly ? along with vermin shape, undead anatomy and monstrous physique.
I wonder if they will eveuntally errata greater poly to include the newer poly shape spells
It is an interesting question ... if you use Poly Any O to bestow a form beyond those allowed by Greater Poly, how do you decide what mechanics and stats the new form has. I tend to be conservative: If you change into an unusual form (a fey, an undead, an ooze, even a giant), then you get the movement, base natural attacks, and size of the new form, and that's all. No size mods to stats. No special abilities, immunities, qualities.
The only other option is that you DO get some of those things, but where do you draw the line? Without the spell specifying, you are just making things up. So I recommend the most conservative possible option.
Thus, I suggest that Poly Any O to giant form gets you size, movement, and natural attacks. That's it.
If your referring to this line:
"This spell can also be used to duplicate the effects of baleful polymorph, greater polymorph, flesh to stone, stone to flesh, transmute mud to rock, transmute metal to wood, or transmute rock to mud"
I am NOT referring to that line as it DOES NOT EXIST anywhere within the spell's text.
The actual spell text's OPENING SENTENCE says this:
This spell functions like greater polymorph, except that it changes one object or creature into another.
The VERY LAST sentence in the spell has this to say:
This spell can also be used to duplicate the effects of baleful polymorph, greater polymorph, flesh to stone, stone to flesh, transmute mud to rock, transmute metal to wood, or transmute rock to mud.
They are in two completely separate paragraphs (much less different sentences) and are expressing two completely different thoughts.
That distinction often makes a HUGE difference in a discussion like this.
Just reread the spell description.
Epic fail on my part. Sorry.
as a houserule i'd pick whichever Giant form is closest to whichever Form of the Dragon is described in the PAO spell.
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We've let polymorph any object turn beholder to Pie (which was then eaten by the party), I see human to giant as nothing.
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The fact that PAO can turn a pebble into a human pretty much says it all ;)
The fact that PAO can turn a pebble into a human pretty much says it all ;)
Not really, no. The spell clearly says you can turn a creature into an object, or an object into a creature, and it gives some basic rules for how to handle that. It also says the spell functions as X, Y, and Z, of which Giant Form is not one.
Not really, no. The spell clearly says you can turn a creature into an object, or an object into a creature, and it gives some basic rules for how to handle that. It also says the spell functions as X, Y, and Z, of which Giant Form is not one.The fact that PAO can turn a pebble into a human pretty much says it all ;)
It also says
*You can use this spell to transform all manner of objects and creatures into new forms- you aren't limited to transforming a living creature into another living form.*
meaning you can if you want to.
Have you considered that the reason it lists spells that PAO can act like is because what if for example you wanted to turn something into something else that PAO would make permanent but you didn't want it to be permanent.
The way I read it , if you want to turn something into something else that PAO would make a permanent change you can instead have PAO function as e.g. baleful poly with its limited duration.
It adds flexibility to the spell, not restrictions.
Also Giant Form is not the same as being turned into a Giant and PAO doesn't specify the difference the same as Dragon Form I is not the same as being permanently turned into a medium dragon.
The spell itself is an anomaly because in theory its superior to 9th Shapechange depending on how you interpret the rules.
For me PAO is just one of those 3.5 spells that didn't make the transition well to pathfinder.
Not really, no. The spell clearly says you can turn a creature into an object, or an object into a creature, and it gives some basic rules for how to handle that. It also says the spell functions as X, Y, and Z, of which Giant Form is not one.The fact that PAO can turn a pebble into a human pretty much says it all ;)
It also says
*You can use this spell to transform all manner of objects and creatures into new forms- you aren't limited to transforming a living creature into another living form.*
I took that to mean you aren't just limited to changing creatures into creatures (per the spells it mentions), but also creatures into objects (and vice versa).
No where does that really even imply you can change a human into a giant, or a fox into a huge dragon.
I don't think it's an anomoly. I think people are simply misinterpreting it wrong. The more I look at it the more I honestly beleive it is more limiting than most people believe--and that most people believe that because (1) they want it to be powerful and (2) most came from v3.5 where it WAS nearly unlimited.
No long, I'd say.
You're probably right. FAQ'd.
When you think about it paizo took the polymorph spells and broke them down in the various forms which works great, however they didn't with PAO.
Perhaps if a few additional spells had been added to better define the scope of PAO.
e.g.
Greater Baelful Polymorph
Transmute Living to Non-Living
Transmute Non-Living to Living
Greater Transmute Living to Non-Living
Greater Transmute Non-Living to Living
Transmute Matter
Greater Transmute Matter
etc
Egad. What about (su) or (ex) abilities... or Stats?
If you change a kobold into a dragon does he still have a pathetic strength and con?
Does changing a satyr into a nymph give him unearthly beauty and a cha 25 and the ability to change its spell like abilities?
Could you permanently polymorph a kobold into a terrasque?
Kingdom: Animal: 5
Class: Reptile: 2
Intelligence: Lower: 2
Would it be the weakest most delicate and fragile terrasque ever with kobol ability scores?
So many questions...
Can you change a monkey into an angel or a demon?
Are angels and demons and other outsiders considered the same 'class'?
If i change my paladin into a balor does he change alignments?
How long would turning a human into a flesh golem last?
If you change a human to an elf does their maximum lifespan change?
Can an eidolon be polymorphed? Is it the same class as angels and demons?
If my eidolon is polymorphed into a newt, does it still retain the properties of being my eidolon and can still be summoned or dismissed?
Presumably 'purified calling' would fix a polymorph...
So lets say I polymorph my eidolon into a terrasque...
Kingdom: animal I guess... 5
Intelligence: Lower... 2
That could last a week.
Heck. Lets not even presume an eidolon and a terrasque are the same kingdom...
Its still a 2 so it still lasts an hour...
Is it still my eidolon under my control?
Can it be dismissed at will?
When i bring it back is it still a terrasque?
Since its alignment matches my own would that alignment change or still be my own?
Vincent: Most all of the forms you mentioned are likely illegal. I just don't see the Paizo designers opening a can of worms THAT big.
Vincent: Most all of the forms you mentioned are likely illegal. I just don't see the Paizo designers opening a can of worms THAT big.
For something to be illegal, there must be a law concerning it. Where is the law that states the illegality of Vincent's line of thinking? Unfortunately it needs FAQ'ing.
Vincent: Most all of the forms you mentioned are likely illegal.
When you use the word 'illegal' what I think you mean to use is the word 'awesome'
speaking of awesome...
can of worms
Can I polymorph a swarm of bees into a can of worms?
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Vincent: Most all of the forms you mentioned are likely illegal. I just don't see the Paizo designers opening a can of worms THAT big.
If you're talking about Society play, I totally agree. I'm more curious about the actual semantic clarifications... There is no doubt in terms of what a Society ruling on this would be that the answer would be nerf it. Nerf it into the ground. No on all counts you powergaming plebe... Thats not what i'm after though really.
I've searched long and hard on google and on these forums for some clarification. Theres tons of reference to the fact that everyone everywhere has heavily erratad this spell so the answers should be moot, but I'm still not finding the answers i'm looking for...
I'm interested in answers to all the questions I had above:
My worst fear is that paizo might have left the wording intentionally vague enough so that the gm has to make the decision and no decision is supported by official documentation, despite the fact that, upon researching it, it seems like one of the few spells that has been thoroughly and massively scrutinized. For something that's been put through such a wringer I'd expect the paramaters of the spell to be quite specific, and yet for my above questions I have yet to find a single solid official answer.
I hate the old 'houserule it' answer for 3 reasons... First, there are as many ways to rule it from table to table as there are pages of published material. So the answer isnt one answer but an infinite and constantly changing melange of answer, to which the only escape is 'play using society rules. because there's only one answer, and the answer is no. Bad panda. Smack smack smack...
Second being that I come from adnd2e I expect wording to be either more specific or completely unrestrained... Saying things like 'oh it works like polymorph except now it works on rocks...' specifically only answers none of my questions, or even the OP's question about giants.
The name of the spell includes the word ANY... So if it doesnt work to either change or change into giants or fey or tarrasques or demons then it shouldnt be called 'ANY'. It should be called 'Polymorph quite a bit but not all the things.'
I even read something that was basically amounted to 'it doesnt change your creature type at all, so even if it allowed you to polymorph into a bralani you're still just a human that looks like a bralani... No more powerful than an alter self spell. Which seems pretty donkeyed for a level 8 spell to me...
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I really like the 2e version of the spell. I carry over the rules concerning if the object in question becomes the object entirely or if it retain 's it's own mind. For when it looses it's mind fully, I basically make it so a long dead creature of that type is brought back and takes over the consciousness