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I will assume you know what a 'feint' is in the context of swordplay.
If the opponent has no senses to use to fight, they are effectively blind...so they already loose their Dexterity to AC.
If the opponent can effectively engage the opponent in combat using a sense other than sight, there should be no reason for the feint to be ineffective.
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I will assume you know what a 'feint' is in the context of swordplay.
If the opponent has no senses to use to fight, they are effectively blind...so they already loose their Dexterity to AC.
If the opponent can effectively engage the opponent in combat using a sense other than sight, there should be no reason for the feint to be ineffective.
Example of creature.
Destrachan
Defensive Abilities protection from sonics; Immune gaze
attacks, visual effects, illusions, and attacks relying on
sight.
Why I asked the question was my PFS gm ruled that the creature had no eyes so was not effected by a Feint attempt. Is there a rule somewhere where it talked about this?
It's a pretty corner case. Also applies if someone had blind-fight. I wouldn't think they would be immune to feint, but it might be reasonable for you to have to notice the creature's blindness and change tactics.
Well feint is usually you pretend to strike from the left, and then in the last moment you change the way of your attack and thrust from below or something instead.
If they have blind-fight or anything else to not lose Dex, then that basically means they actively try to evade your attacks they "see" (or feel) coming. That's basically what the Dex and Dodge parts of AC represent.
So by that logic, yes they'd be fooled by it.
If they have some sort of telepathic or divination like powers and thats why they can avoid your attacks, then they would know this is a fake attack and defend against the real one, and could not be feinted.
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Example of creature.
Destrachan
Defensive Abilities protection from sonics; Immune gaze
attacks, visual effects, illusions, and attacks relying on
sight.Why I asked the question was my PFS gm ruled that the creature had no eyes so was not effected by a Feint attempt. Is there a rule somewhere where it talked about this?
There is no rule stating that Feint requires sight or that lack of sight spoils the effectiveness of Feint. As a player, I would ask how a creature can defend itself against my sword blows if he cannot perceive my weapon. If the GM were to say that he can perceive the weapon, I would state that there is no reason why Feint would not work.
As a GM, I would not rule the way he did...but during a game, if you cannot convince a GM to change his mind, you have to roll with the punches. If he GMs for you often, I suggest discussing it further after the game (or have him post to this thread) so his view point can be discussed.
Example of creature.
Destrachan
Defensive Abilities protection from sonics; Immune gaze
attacks, visual effects, illusions, and attacks relying on
sight.Why I asked the question was my PFS gm ruled that the creature had no eyes so was not effected by a Feint attempt. Is there a rule somewhere where it talked about this?
Feint is not an attack that relies on sight, it relies on your target knowing where you and your weapon are - which is pretty much a given, unless the target is already flat-footed through blindness, in which case you don't need to feint.
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Is there any FAQ or ruling somewhere so PFS GM's will have reference? Otherwisse its just up the GM at the table to decide.
There doesn't need to be one. There is no rule saying that feint requires vision, unlike other abilities which do say so (eg. some bard abilities)
The description of feint is the only thing that gives restrictions:
When feinting against a nonhumanoid you take a –4 penalty. Against a creature of animal Intelligence (1 or 2), you take a –8 penalty. Against a creature lacking an Intelligence score, it's impossible.
That's it. nothing about vision stated.
I have to agree with the idea that if it can perceive you, you can feint against it.
Is combat feint visual only or can it be used against that dont have sight as one of their senses?
I agree with the above comments.
If a creature like the Destchran can perceive you and your movements well enough to engage in combat, then it can perceive your feint.
IMO your GM dropped the ball on that one.
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Is there any FAQ or ruling somewhere so PFS GM's will have reference? Otherwisse its just up the GM at the table to decide.There doesn't need to be one. There is no rule saying that feint requires vision, unlike other abilities which do say so (eg. some bard abilities)
The description of feint is the only thing that gives restrictions:
When feinting against a nonhumanoid you take a –4 penalty. Against a creature of animal Intelligence (1 or 2), you take a –8 penalty. Against a creature lacking an Intelligence score, it's impossible.That's it. nothing about vision stated.
Problem with this statement is that a long time PFS GM rule differently, so saying its obvious is not correct.
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Problem with this statement is that a long time PFS GM rule differently, so saying its obvious is not correct.
Even long time GMs make a mistake. We don't need a Paizon FAQ every time a minority of people have a different interpretation about a rule. Paizo will say that it's not worth their time. Common sense 'should' serve well enough to handle may of these cases.
In this situation, the GM made a call; it just happens he made an incorrect one. I think the best course of action for the player (if he will play under this GM again) would be to discuss the ruling with him again, point him at this thread, consult a local Venture captain (if it is a public game), etc.
Lol blind barbarian can't be feinted :D
Saltband, I'd just approach my GM between games and ask to revisit the topic.
Say you've thought about the situation and looked through your books for some guidance and feel that, since the description of feint doesn't say it relies on sight - give some examples of sound, movement, etc. that could also be considered feinting - you'd like to agree that it should work on creatures that rely on other senses in the future - specifically blind sense, blind sight, and tremor sense, unless the monster description specifies that it's immune to feint.
However, be prepared for the GM to either agree or not. If this is the only time the situation has presented itself, perhaps the GM was trying to give you a more interesting challenge by providing an 'unfeintable' foe. As GM, I mix things up like this if my players get overly fond of using certain skills or maneuvers in nearly every combat. It isn't to punish them, it's just to make them think creatively and perhaps synergistically as well, and to make the encounter more memorable.
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Ok anopther question on Feint. It says this;
When feinting against a non-humanoid you take a –4 penalty. Against a creature of animal Intelligence (1 or 2), you take a –8 penalty. Against a creature lacking an Intelligence score, it's impossible. Feinting in combat does not provoke attacks of opportunity.
Now does this mean that you get a -12 against a non-humanoid animal intelligence creature?
I also agree with most everyone your DM dropped the ball, you should be allowed to feint this creature. If it can percieve you and your movements with a weapon, you should be able to feint it. Plus considering the diminishing retuns feinting will ultimately provide, I see no way this is overtly powerful.
Ok anopther question on Feint. It says this;
When feinting against a non-humanoid you take a –4 penalty. Against a creature of animal Intelligence (1 or 2), you take a –8 penalty. Against a creature lacking an Intelligence score, it's impossible. Feinting in combat does not provoke attacks of opportunity.
Now does this mean that you get a -12 against a non-humanoid animal intelligence creature?
I'd say yes. So you really shouldn't try to feint those guys.
However, this Destrachan IS intelligent so it would only impose a -4 penalty for feinting(as it is an abberation).
But he loses his dex to AC against all my other fencer buddies.
No. Unless I've overlooked something else in the rules.
Break it down as follow:
Whenever you use feint to cause an opponent to lose his Dexterity bonus
Which dexterity bonus is he losing here? The one caused by your feint, which only applies to your next attack - not to any of your allies attacks.
he loses that bonus until the beginning of your next turn, in addition to losing his Dexterity bonus against your next attack
Normally this penalty he takes to dex against you lasts only until your next attack (and never more than 1 round). Greater feint changes that to last for all attacks you make against him till the beginning of your next turn (or if you make no attacks against him before the beginning of your next turn, then you get 1 attack in which he is denied dex against you).
Seems greater feint is a useless feat. If you are using improved feint then you are not getting to make a full-attack since your move action is used for the feint, so you only get 1 attack after your feint. If you feint, then don't attack till next round, it still only applies to your next attack since a full round has passed, so the duration is now 'till your next attack'.
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Feint in combat:
Feinting is a standard action. To feint, make a Bluff skill check. The DC of this check is equal to 10 + your opponent's base attack bonus + your opponent's Wisdom modifier. If your opponent is trained in Sense Motive, the DC is instead equal to 10 + your opponent's Sense Motive bonus, if higher. If successful, the next melee attack you make against the target does not allow him to use his Dexterity bonus to AC (if any). This attack must be made on or before your next turn.
When feinting against a non-humanoid you take a –4 penalty. Against a creature of animal Intelligence (1 or 2), you take a –8 penalty. Against a creature lacking an Intelligence score, it's impossible. Feinting in combat does not provoke attacks of opportunity.
Greater Feint (Combat)
Benefit: Whenever you use feint to cause an opponent to lose his Dexterity bonus, he loses that bonus until the beginning of your next turn, in addition to losing his Dexterity bonus against your next attack.
Normal: A creature you feint loses its Dexterity bonus against your next attack.
Greater Feint causes your opponent to loses his dex bonus to everyone, at least thats what most people I've talked to though.
Feint in combat:
Feinting is a standard action. To feint, make a Bluff skill check. The DC of this check is equal to 10 + your opponent's base attack bonus + your opponent's Wisdom modifier. If your opponent is trained in Sense Motive, the DC is instead equal to 10 + your opponent's Sense Motive bonus, if higher. If successful, the next melee attack you make against the target does not allow him to use his Dexterity bonus to AC (if any). This attack must be made on or before your next turn.When feinting against a non-humanoid you take a –4 penalty. Against a creature of animal Intelligence (1 or 2), you take a –8 penalty. Against a creature lacking an Intelligence score, it's impossible. Feinting in combat does not provoke attacks of opportunity.
Greater Feint (Combat)
Benefit: Whenever you use feint to cause an opponent to lose his Dexterity bonus, he loses that bonus until the beginning of your next turn, in addition to losing his Dexterity bonus against your next attack.Normal: A creature you feint loses its Dexterity bonus against your next attack.
Greater Feint causes your opponent to loses his dex bonus to everyone, at least thats what most people I've talked to though.
You're still using the same base ability, the feint, here. So it still only applies to you. Greater feint would have to specifically state that it alters the basic feint to get the penalty to apply to others.
Also think about this logically, do the other people fighting around you know which way you're going to fake you're opponent out and exactly which second you're going to do it and furthermore exactly how the enemy is going to react to your feint? No they don't. They can't take advantage of this. It is something that strictly happens between the swordplay and movements of the 2 creatures feinting and reacting.
I concour that greater feint only increases the duration for which the character is denied their dex. Not that he is denied his dex against all attackers, that would make it much more powerful than it normally is.
In regards to, is feinting an action that only involves sight?
I think in reality, yes it would be. But in a universe where blindsight exists and other things, it could be reasonable to extend it beyond that.
Greater Feint's benefit is not that it extends the DEX loss to other characters. It allows the rogue* performing the feint to deny the target its DEX on multiple attacks made by the rogue - multiple attacks during his turn, or AoOs triggered by that target before the start of the rogue's next turn.
More evidence: The existence of Feint Partner.
*Assuming a rogue in this case; substitute fighter, magus, etc. as you will.
Greater Feint,
Benefit: Whenever you use feint to cause an opponent to lose his Dexterity bonus, he loses that bonus until the beginning of your next turn, in addition to losing his Dexterity bonus against your next attack.
Greater Feint denies the target it DEX bonus against your next melee attack. This attack can be taken anytime before the end of your next turn. In addition, the target is denied it's DEX bonus until the beginning of you next turn. End of statement. The rest of the quoted sentence does not modify the aforementioned clause.
The feat doesn't say he loses his DEX bonus against attack made by you; it doesn't say he loses his DEX bonus against melee attacks; it doesn't even say he loses his DEX bonus against attacks. He loses his DEX bonus. Period. Against everything.
The reason this is in addition to losing hi DEX bonus against you next attack is because that attack can be made anytime before the end of your next turn. The creature only loses it's DEX bomus until the beginning of your next turn.
I really have no idea why people think Greater Feint should work like Feint. The whole reason you take the feat is so it doesn't work like Feint. It works as described in the feat.
Greater Feint's benefit is not that it extends the DEX loss to other characters. It allows the rogue* performing the feint to deny the target its DEX on multiple attacks made by the rogue - multiple attacks during his turn, or AoOs triggered by that target before the start of the rogue's next turn.
More evidence: The existence of Feint Partner.
*Assuming a rogue in this case; substitute fighter, magus, etc. as you will.
Since feinting still requires a move action, the Rogue cannot make multiple attacks on his turn (having only a standard action left with which to make them), so it's only AoOs.
Second, Greater Feint has two pre-req feats, a requisite ability score, and can't be taken by a Rouge until 8th level. Feinting Partner hardly has any pre-reqs to speak of, and can be taken at level 1. They serve entirely different purposes.
Nothing about feint requires it to be sight-based.
@Quantum Steve: I see where your interpretation is coming from, and you are correct - Feint Partner may not be the strongest evidence.
To me, I see the feat denying DEX to all attackers as being overpowered almost to the point of being 'required' for someone in a party. I've posted a separate thread and marked as FAQ, because I'd like to have an 'official' answer on it.
To the original post: I see nothing in RAW that states you have to be able to see a person to feint against them. As a realistic example, the 'stomp' that people use during fencing is essentially a feint, as it attempts to distract the opponent into dropping his guard.
Now, since an opponent with the blind condition is automatically denied his DEX bonus to AC anyway, what would be the point of feinting? Is there some sort of combination or condition that triggers with a successful feint that you're trying to achieve?
Some classes and monsters do not lose dex when blind, or have blind-fight, etc...
Some classes and monsters do not lose dex when blind, or have blind-fight, etc...
In which case, you could feint them, because they are 'perceiving' you in some way detailed enough to react to your attacks (and can therefore be 'tricked'). But under the normal "blinded" condition, with no modifiers, that isn't the case.
Feint isn't sight-based, so you can certainly feint a creture that cannot see.
Whether or not a creature is already denied his DEX bonus for some reason, feint still works. Obviously, one cannot lose their DEX bonus twice, but if there were some combination of abilities that only worked with a successful feint (Decpetive Exchange, for example) feint would still work.