Self confidence just gets doors opened for you. If you still act creepy no one is going to date you self confident or not.
Look around, as a neutral observer, and you might change your mind. With some very clear exceptions (some of which we've identified here), "acting creepy" is entirely subjective. Many of the exact same behaviors that are considered "creepy" coming from an unattractive person with low self-confidence are "dreamy" coming from an attractive, confident person. And even with the same person, after you break up with someone, many of the behaviors you found endearing in retrospect can seem incredibly annoying, no?
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If self-confidence (based on attractiveness or otherwise) is all it takes to stop being a "creeper" and become "Mr. Right" -- or vice-versa -- then I'd submit there's no point in any discussion; we might as well just say, "guys, unless your Cha score is 18, kill yourself now (or at least stay at home and don't ever come out) so that women will feel safe at gaming events."
Luckily, we've gotten a number of suggestions as to what's creepy regardless of who does it (even Daniel Craig!). Those are things we can focus on eliminating, if doing so will make gaming events more accessible to women.
I submit myself as a counter to this. I am 47, slightly balding, 1.85 meters tall and over 136 kilos... and not in as good of shape as I would like. I would not describe myself as unattractive, but I am NO CHA 18 (my wife might disagree, but she's biased).
What I am, however, is comfortable in my own skin... which is its own sort of self confidence. I am who I am. I'm not terribly competitive, as I don't feel like I have anything to prove. In ethological terms, I suppose I am what could be called a Gamma Male. In no way am I attempting to brag, but meeting women or men that held a mutual level of attraction with me is not a problem I've had SINCE I finally became comfortable with myself.
Confidence IS attractive, but it's not always correlated with physical appearance.
Confidence IS attractive, but it's not always correlated with physical appearance.
I'm using "charsima" in the "self-confidence and force of personality" sense. As a grognard, I'd have stipulated "comeliness" otherwise!
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"Hey, everyone, lets go for a pizza after game!" or "That was good session. By the way, anyone wants to theater see Iron Man 3 tomorrow?" or anything else directed at socializing with the group, developing the relations above merely co-gamer allowing people to know each other better.
This, pretty much. People don't generally go to games to get dates, so don't try and jump straight into dating-type activities.
Slightly off topic. My single female friends prefer it when guys offer their phone number. That way they haven't given private info to a person that could be trouble in the future.
You don't have to ask her out to get her number... They have something called a phone book, or you could get a group contact list started so you can all stay in touch. Arrange a social activity as a group not one on one and chat with her during that as well.
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What are you talking about? Self confidence just gets doors opened for you. If you still act creepy no one is going to date you self confident or not.If self-confidence (based on attractiveness or otherwise) is all it takes to stop being a "creeper" and become "Mr. Right" -- or vice-versa -- then I'd submit there's no point in any discussion; we might as well just say, "guys, unless your Cha score is 18, kill yourself now (or at least stay at home and don't ever come out) so that women will feel safe at gaming events."
Luckily, we've gotten a number of suggestions as to what's creepy regardless of who does it (even Daniel Craig!). Those are things we can focus on eliminating, if doing so will make gaming events more accessible to women.
I think Kirth is focusing on concrete, identifiable behaviors that are "creepy" in all almost all RPGing and social instances.
But yeah, self-confidence (to a point anyway) is generally an attractive quality, but it doesn't make unwanted behaviors acceptable. I think you are overlooking empathy; at what point does a guy (or yes, girl) ask themselves as the engager "Would I, in this situation, find this behavior unwelcome or uncomfortable (or distressing/threatening)?"
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I roomed with an obese girl in college. I was truly envious of the amazing guys she had calling on her. I was worlds more attractive but she was the one who had the guys attention. It came down to personality. She was the most optimistic fun loving outgoing person I had ever met, one of those people who you can't help but like. I was a timid follower of the latest trends. Sure a lot of guys came to meet me at first... but as soon as we all began talking I was forgotten in favor of her. I don't have a bad personality... she just had a ton more charisma.
This appears contradictory. You consider yourself "worlds more attractive" than your roommate, but you describe your roommate as attracting more attention from men.
-Skeld
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Confidence IS attractive, but it's not always correlated with physical appearance.I'm using "charsima" in the "self-confidence and force of personality" sense. As a grognard, I'd have stipulated "comeliness" otherwise!
Oddly, while I conflated the two a bit I was looking at it the same way. You don't need that +4 CHA mod to be successful. Not every diplomacy check is going to be scaled to your level with the assumption that Diplomacy is a class skill for you. :p
You don't have to ask her out to get her number... They have something called a phone book.
Personally, if a girl I just met looked me up in the phone book and started calling me? I'd be a bit freaked out. My wife might call the police. And I'm not even female! I'd respectifully suggest that people not do that.
Group activities seem like a very good suggestion, though.
Self confidence just gets doors opened for you. If you still act creepy no one is going to date you self confident or not.Look around, as a neutral observer, and you might change your mind. With some very clear exceptions (some of which we've identified here), "acting creepy" is entirely subjective. Many of the exact same behaviors that are considered "creepy" coming from an unattractive person with low self-confidence are "dreamy" coming from an attractive, confident person. And even with the same person, after you break up with someone, many of the behaviors you found endearing in retrospect can seem incredibly annoying, no?
No Kirth, I don't think whether someone is "'acting creepy' is entirely subjective." Can you give an example or two of what the smooth handsome-ish dude can pull off that a "low CHA" dude can't?
And I think the who "post-breakup" analysis kind of a derail, albeit unintentional.
This appears contradictory. on from men.
-Skeld
Not at all, it happens quite often. You are looking at only one part of what the poster has said, and aren't considering the full content, nor it's various social implications.
When, I was a young man if I was attracted to a woman I would blush bright red and start stammering... I would have to leave the room because I was so embarrassed.
Then again there were lots of female friends I would of happily dated but I knew they were not interested, and their friendship was more valuable to me than jeopardizing it by trying to pick them up...
Funny thing is Mrs T8D was one of those friends and she got me drunk at a night club and picked me up....:-)
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Check Buffy vs Edward on youtube. THAT is the guy you really don't want to be. "I... feel very... PROTECTIVE of you..." "I LIKE watching you sleep"... For some reason there are hordes of people, primarily women, who eat it up. Is it because Edward is good looking?
Can you give an example or two of what the smooth handsome-ish dude can pull off that a "low CHA" dude can't?
I gave one example of an "asking out" scenario that apparantly got lost somewhere ("would you like to have a drink later" vs. "hey, let's go somewhere"), so I'll give another true anecdote that's a lot more blatant. A few years ago, I was at the Comal River with some friends rafting, it's nice out, there's a lot of people on the river. One guy in our group grins at women floating down the other direction and says "show us your t##@!" -- and a surprisingly high percentage proceed to do just that. Just about anyone else who does the same thing, and either the woman rafts away -- QUICKLY! -- or calls the police. Now, this guy happens to be gay (and in a committed relationship); he just thinks it's fun for some reason. Not that I necessarily disagree, but the ability to yell out something like that and NOT be considered creepy? There's nothing objective there that I can see.
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A couple of things I have to say in relation to this topic:
1) I never, EVER hit on a girl. I just can't do it, and I never quite got around to figuring with myself why that is so. For what I suspect are similar reasons I also nearly never approach anyone (male OR female) to try and befriend them - I kinda just hang about and wait for someone to start a conversation with me. I have the luck of being able to get people's attention with my unusual looks (by being tall and having long ginger hair and a goatee :D) so up to this point in my life I never lacked for company. I have a girlfriend, but she had to be the one to make it crystal clear she is interestd before I started chasing her in any sort of way.
HOWEVER. I find I disagree with many of the draconic, exegerrated guidlines many people have posted here telling each other that one should never make the first move on a girl. That is, to my understandment, sexism. As someone who knows just how hard it might be to express intrest of anohter person, I can only imagine that the same could be true for many girls and boys out there, and just like any other form of communication, expressing sexual interest is something that CAN be done in a non aggressive, friendly way. Just be smart about it and be ready to drop it at the first sign that it is casuing distress. Don't just wait for something to happen because maybe it never will, and that's a shame.
2) I once got baltantly hit on by a girl whom I wasn't finding attractive and, generally, didn't really want anything to do with. She chose a very invasive way to express her interest - by touching me in a reather sexual way, without my concent, and in front of my girlfriend. Many girls (and one guy) who have experienced sexual harresment often told me of a sensation of being paralyzed and unable to think. Well, that wasn't at all what I felt, I was just embarrased and a little bit upset, kind of what I used to feel like as a kid when one perticulat aunt would give me smacking wet kisses on my forehead. Anyway you look at it though I was harassed, by what I percieved at the time as "that girl creeper".
I am sharing this story because the discussion started with Kirth noticing, that many times behavior that from one man could be considerd flirty and enjoyable by a girl, would be considerd "creepy" if another man did it.
The grim truth is, that this is correct and there's not much to do about it. Had I been touched the way I was by another girl, in other circumstances, I might have enjoyed it a great deal. The fact that I just didn't want that girl had a lot to do with how unpleasent a feeling the incident created. So I can't blame anyone, male or female, for feeling that way. It's natural.
So sometime a person you are interested in just isn't attracted to you and WILL percieve what you are doing as creepy and unpleasent. If you are planning to hit on people you must be aware of that as one possible outcome that you can't avoid, but you sure can try to minimize the likelyhood of it happening. Doing that is by implementing common sense and acting reasonably - don't assume anyone is interested in you unless they signal to you that they are, and never come on too strong on anybody. That all just mean that you should behave normally and don't lose your head. Everything should work fine if you do.
3) On "white knighting" girls - I don't know, this all sounds rather silly. If I am already pushing a door and someone is with me, I'll hold it open for 'em. Do it for my male friends as well as my female friends, though the latter tend to be more upset about it than the former. I am stronger tham most of the people in my environment and so I often offer my help with carrying stuff and things like that. Most people never accept my help, but girls usualy pause to accuse me of being condascending before they refuse. I suppose I should pay heed to social conventions more carefully and be more awere of how other people percieve my actions, but meh. They can handle me being a polite person, I think.
Check Buffy vs Edward on youtube. THAT is the guy you really don't want to be. "I... feel very... PROTECTIVE of you..." "I LIKE watching you sleep"... For some reason there are hordes of people, primarily women, who eat it up. Is it because Edward is good looking?
Or is it because many of those women are conditioned to accept that kind of behavior socially acceptable when it's completely safe for the audience, like a fictional novel or movie? I'd posit (that's for you Tensor) that Edward behaving similarly (ignoring the vampy stuff) in real life would be interpreted quite differently, and his behaviors much more unwelcome or threatening.
Same here. You don't like me being an 1890's guy? Ask me to stop the first time I do it. You yell at me for being an 1890's kind of guy with no warning. Expect the full gentleman treatment. My Dad, mom and GRandma raised me this way. :-)Don't white knight .... The only time I give up a seat it's for the elderly, pregnant, ill or parents with children. Women are fully capable standing or entering a lift or going through a door after you.This 'White Knight' bit is a cultural thing I guess. I was raised to treat all women a certain way as a matter of propriety, and its difficult to break habits ingrained as right and wrong.
I disagree with you elsewhere, but I agree here.
I roomed with an obese girl in college. I was truly envious of the amazing guys she had calling on her. I was worlds more attractive but she was the one who had the guys attention. It came down to personality. She was the most optimistic fun loving outgoing person I had ever met, one of those people who you can't help but like. I was a timid follower of the latest trends. Sure a lot of guys came to meet me at first... but as soon as we all began talking I was forgotten in favor of her. I don't have a bad personality... she just had a ton more charisma.This appears contradictory. You consider yourself "worlds more attractive" than your roommate, but you describe your roommate as attracting more attention from men.
-Skeld
It only appears contradictory.
But as I learned then appearance isn't everything.My attractiveness was physical... hers was pure charisma. Hers won.
Remember I was bullied as a child and became physically attractive to avoid that bullying, under that I was still terrified what others thought about me. I had no self confidence.
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1.) I'm here to game first. That is my priority when I sit down to game—everything else is secondary.
2.) If you're going to flirt with me, or ask me out, or do anything besides game, do it AFTER game, or during breaks, or whatever. Not during game. (Seriously, GMs have a hard enough time keeping everybody focused—I know I do when I GM...)For everybody, don't jump to conclusions... Just because somebody holds the door open for you doesn't mean they're trying to get in your pants (they might be trying to be polite), nor does asking to spend time with you outside of game mean they want to have a Serious Relationship. They could just want waffles at Denny's.
I cannot favorite this enough.
Can you give an example or two of what the smooth handsome-ish dude can pull off that a "low CHA" dude can't?...A few years ago, I was at the Comal River with some friends rafting, it's nice out, there's a lot of people on the river. One guy in our group grins at women floating down the other direction and says "show us your t&~~!" -- and a surprisingly high percentage proceed to do just that. Just about anyone else who does the same thing, and either the woman rafts away -- QUICKLY! -- or calls the police. Now, this guy happens to be gay (and in a committed relationship); he just thinks it's fun for some reason. Not that I necessarily disagree, but the ability to yell out something like that and NOT be considered creepy? There's nothing objective there that I can see.
But that particular situation is likely (I dunno, IANAPsychic) perceived by the women as non-threatening and of no lasting consequence. If the women who participated thought they might run into that guy afterward, would they still have done it? Did at least some of them clue in that he was gay? Ignoring for a moment any judgment the women may have (or didn't make) or offense/non-offense taken, is the guy's behavior still creepy? If the guy, gay or otherwise, asks every male going down the river: "Show me your c*ck!" or "Show me your *ss!", is it creepy then?
I am a little confused... you have a phone don't you? Just call her sometime outside of game time and talk.Asking a woman for her phone number is generally viewed as hitting on her, which we've established is a no-no at games.
it certainly made a game I was in difficult to be a part of - one person was only attracted to one player and found the rest of us (or maybe just me) unattractive and would not get in touch with us unless it was by email. We ended up having to rely on the guy she had a crush on to get her to the table via phone.
Check Buffy vs Edward on youtube. THAT is the guy you really don't want to be. "I... feel very... PROTECTIVE of you..." "I LIKE watching you sleep"... For some reason there are hordes of people, primarily women, who eat it up. Is it because Edward is good looking?
good question.
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or "Show me your *ss!", is it creepy then?
He would have got a full moon from me..
But that particular situation is likely (I dunno, IANAPsychic) perceived by the women as non-threatening and of no lasting consequence. If the women who participated thought they might run into that guy afterward, would they still have done it? Did at least some of them clue in that he was gay? Ignoring for a moment any judgment the women may have (or didn't make) or offense/non-offense taken, is the guy's behavior still creepy? If the guy, gay or otherwise, asks every male going down the river: "Show me your c*ck!" or "Show me your *ss!", is it creepy then?Can you give an example or two of what the smooth handsome-ish dude can pull off that a "low CHA" dude can't?...A few years ago, I was at the Comal River with some friends rafting, it's nice out, there's a lot of people on the river. One guy in our group grins at women floating down the other direction and says "show us your t&~~!" -- and a surprisingly high percentage proceed to do just that. Just about anyone else who does the same thing, and either the woman rafts away -- QUICKLY! -- or calls the police. Now, this guy happens to be gay (and in a committed relationship); he just thinks it's fun for some reason. Not that I necessarily disagree, but the ability to yell out something like that and NOT be considered creepy? There's nothing objective there that I can see.
Another damn good question.
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or "Show me your *ss!", is it creepy then?He would have got a full moon from me..
+1
I once got baltantly hit on by a girl whom I wasn't finding attractive and, generally, didn't really want anything to do with. She chose a very invasive way to express her interest - by touching me in a reather sexual way, without my concent, and in front of my girlfriend. Many girls (and one guy) who have experienced sexual harresment often told me of a sensation of being paralyzed and unable to think. Well, that wasn't at all what I felt, I was just embarrased and a little bit upset, kind of what I used to feel like as a kid when one perticulat aunt would give me smacking wet kisses on my forehead. Anyway you look at it though I was harassed, by what I percieved at the time as "that girl creeper".
I am sharing this story because the discussion started with Kirth noticing, that many times behavior that from one man could be considerd flirty and enjoyable by a girl, would be considerd "creepy" if another man did it.
The grim truth is, that this is correct and there's not much to do about it. Had I been touched the way I was by another girl, in other circumstances, I might have enjoyed it a great deal. The fact that I just didn't want that girl had a lot to do with how unpleasent a feeling the incident created. So I can't blame anyone, male or female, for feeling that way. It's natural...
I don't think anyone would argue that what you experienced wasn't harassment (and completely unacceptable).
I'd like to offer that some behaviors perceived as unwelcome or harassment by women may not be perceived as unwelcome or harassment by men subjected to them. I'd also suggest that while such behaviors might be tolerated or even accepted by women (or men, when subjected to them), that does not mean the behavior wasn't creepy or welcomed.
Maybe creepy is the wrong word? Maybe "boundary-crossing" is better? Maybe creepy is the feeling experienced when boundary-crossing becomes "boundary-violation"?
+1or "Show me your *ss!", is it creepy then?He would have got a full moon from me..
OK, but to both of you: why? What if you bumped into him afterward, and it turns out he seems interested in you... is that behavior in hindsight creepy, or at least unwelcome? What if he was a co-worker, or worse, your boss? Why is showing him your *ss non-shaming or consequence-free, but showing him your c*ck might be?
OK, but to both of you: why? What if you bumped into him afterward, and it turns out he seems interested in you... is that behavior in hindsight creepy, or at least unwelcome? What if he was a co-worker, or worse, your boss? Why is showing him your *ss non-shaming or consequence-free, but showing him your c*ck might be?+1or "Show me your *ss!", is it creepy then?He would have got a full moon from me..
mooning people is a very popular statement that both empowers and embarrasses all involved. To me, it's not sexual in the slightest. If the guy approached me afterwards and was interested, I would turn him down courteously. I would have no problem mooning my boss if I was quitting my job in anger. A coworker? It depends on the situation. I would not show anyone my manhood unless it was about to be used for recreational or procreation purposes.
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Why is showing him your *ss non-shaming or consequence-free, but showing him your c*ck might be?
Don't ask me -- if it were legal, I'd never wear a swimsuit in the water; I don't really understand their purpose. I mean, I know, intellectually, that nudity in this society is supposed to be some kind of big shameful thing or something, but I could never quite grasp why that should be, on an emotional level. Someone else seeing whatever part of me does me no harm at all, and if it amuses them, that puts no curse on me, either.
But that's getting pretty off-topic now. Suffice it to say that, other questions aside, I've outlined another anecdote, in different circumstances, in which one person was considered "cute" when doing something that, coming from another person, would be considered a creepy as hell -- even all else being the same. All the extraneous "what if" questions are just that -- extraneous.
Customer Service Manager
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These are based on my personal experiences:
>Do not use your character to hit on my character when we have only ever gamed 2 or 3 times and I barely know you. Especially when "hitting on" includes tell me my character should be forced into a sexual relationship. Furthermore, when this behavior is shut down by me (and later the GM) do not continue doing it.
>Do not assume that because my partner is not a gamer that you deserve me more than he does.
>Do not tell me that you (or your friend that I just tried to gently reject) deserve me because you/he is a "nice" guy and that I am a horrible person for not dating you/him.
>When you ask me out and I reject you, do no not flip out and pretend like you weren't asking me out and accuse me of being an narcissist for assuming that you were asking me out.
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Wow Sara,
I'd be shocked to see that conversation take place, do people really do that stuff!?
That person needs a smack in the chops.
...Suffice it to say that, other questions aside, I've outlined another anecdote, in different circumstances, in which one person was considered "cute" when doing something that, coming from another person, would be considered a creepy as hell -- even all else being the same. All the extraneous "what if" questions are just that -- extraneous.
Imprecise, I'll give you. Extraneous, I'd argue: not.
My point, however obtusely and inelegantly made, is that there are some behaviors that are creepy/boundary-violating and some very similar ones aren't. Being asked to expose one's backside is, in some socially-accepted circumstances, meant to be humorous and/or entertaining. Being asked to expose one's genitals (and to an arguably lesser extent) female breasts carries a sexual element, at least in in U.S. society, and thereby often unwelcome and/or harassment.
I'd argue that because we don't know the women's reasons for complying, we can't know what they thought of the request or why they complied... regardless of whether they felt harassed/creeped out or not. Were any of the women asked afterward whether it was cute or not?
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Customer Service Manager
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They took place several years ago, but yes, people actually do that stuff. In most of the really awkward, creepy situations I have been in, the other person and I got along as friends just fine. I just wasn't interested romantically. I think much of it could be chalked up to a lack of social skills or expectations that were instilled by society. One thing I found very pervasive in college is this belief that if you are a "nice" guy then you deserve your dream girl. One of my favorite sayings I've heard on internet land (and one I wished I had in college) is, "Women are not machines that you put 'nice coins' into until sex comes out." Being nice is kind of standard human behavior. You need to have more to base a relationship on than just being a nice person, including mutual attraction (and I am not talking physical).
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In precisely this situation, people do every imaginable kind of s$~#ty thing.
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They took place several years ago, but yes, people actually do that stuff. In most of the really awkward, creepy situations I have been in, the other person and I got along as friends just fine. I just wasn't interested romantically. I think much of it could be chalked up to a lack of social skills or expectations that were instilled by society. One thing I found very pervasive in college is this belief that if you are a "nice" guy then you deserve your dream girl. One of my favorite sayings I've heard on internet land (and one I wished I had in college) is, "Women are not machines that you put 'nice coins' into until sex comes out." Being nice is kind of standard human behavior. You need to have more to base a relationship on than just being a nice person, including mutual attraction (and I am not talking physical).
Being nice/friends with someone solely to get into their pants is neither nice, nor friendly... it's just another form of entitlement.
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These are based on my personal experiences:Ah, I remember that one game in GR....yeah...
I had actually been thinking of incidents prior to that game. I don't remember much from the GR game other than being sooooo relieved to see another woman at the table of like, 15 guys :D
And being super impressed with Erik's ability to keep the storyline going with so many PC's.
Being nice/friends with someone solely to get into their pants is neither nice, nor friendly... it's just another form of entitlement.
I don't think 'entitlement' is the word, because I don't believe they actually feel entitled but rather the exact opposite, that they are going to try manipulate and connive their way in by deceit to for their own gain.
They want the shiny thing they know they couldn't get by way of merit.
OK, but to both of you: why? What if you bumped into him afterward, and it turns out he seems interested in you... is that behavior in hindsight creepy, or at least unwelcome? What if he was a co-worker, or worse, your boss? Why is showing him your *ss non-shaming or consequence-free, but showing him your c*ck might be?+1or "Show me your *ss!", is it creepy then?He would have got a full moon from me..
Bums, bottoms, mooning and pressed hams are hilarious to me...
It's situational though.... In a raft on a river where people are the same age is different to getting your arse out on work outing or party.
I am secure enough to be flattered when, when a guy checks me out, he would have to be into bears though to find me attractive. I have had guys try and pick me up a few times, and I have been groped twice, I was on those occasions at the Gay and Lesbian Mardi gras in Sydney (I go to support my gay family and friends) or at a "Gay bar" so it didn't phase me.
Continued interest after I said I am not interested would become a problem. I am lucky I have not experienced it.
If it was a coworker male or female, on a work outing I would tell them to stop as they are jeopardizing their job. Then if they don't it's time to have a word with the boss to get them to stop.
If it was a boss male or female I would go straight to their boss as they are in a position of leadership and authority and should not be that stupid.
Getting my nob out carries the chance of prison time and it's not worth the trouble....
Although at a 5 day cricket match I pray for a streaker because nothing breaks the tedium like watching a dude run around an oval with police and grounds officials chasing him as his dangly bits flap about.
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Pretty sure the biggest problem here is that everybody defines "creeper"-ing differently, regardless of gender, age, or anything else. What one person thinks is creeper, another will think they are doing absolutely nothing wrong.
Best you might be able to do is create a list of reasonable expectations, even then as a guideline only.
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Bums, bottoms, mooning and pressed hams are hilarious to me...It's situational though.... In a raft on a river where people are the same age is different to getting your arse out on work outing or party.
I am secure enough to be flattered when, when a guy checks me out, he would have to be into bears though to find me attractive. I have had guys try and pick me up a few times, and I have been groped twice, I was on those occasions at the Gay and Lesbian Mardi gras in Sydney (I go to support my gay family and friends) or at a "Gay bar" so it didn't phase me.
Continued interest after I said I am not interested would become a problem. I am lucky I have not experienced it.
If it was a coworker male or female, on a work outing I would tell them to stop as they are jeopardizing their job. Then if they don't it's time to have a word with the boss to get them to stop.
If it was a boss male or female I would go straight to their boss as they are in a position of leadership and authority and should not be that stupid.
Getting my nob out carries the chance of prison time and it's not worth the trouble....
Although at a 5 day cricket match I pray for a streaker because nothing breaks the tedium like watching a dude run around an oval with police and grounds officials chasing him as his dangly bits flap about.
The only time in my life when I've been harassed was at an official outing. I was a teacher at the school, and this was a party for all the teachers, with all you could drink alcohol. An older male teacher (old enough to be my father) got very, very drunk and decided that was the perfect place (with the school principal sitting 20 feet away) to start trying to grab my crotch and tell me he loves me. At first I tried telling him no, I'm not gay, leave me alone, knock it off, and knocking his hand away. That went on about 10 minutes, him treating it as a game, me getting more and more creeped out. His friend gently tried to walk him away, but he wasn't moving. So I moved. He followed me. More grabbing for my crotch, more repeated knocking his hand away, and threatening to tell the principal. If he were sober, maybe he would have cared, but not in the state he was in. Finally, I had enough. I grabbed his arm, rolled up his sweater sleeve, and wrung out his forearm like a wet dishrag with all my might. (Used to call it an "Indian brushburn", probably has a more PC name today). He was shocked, and yelped. His friend apologized for him and promised to keep him away from me the rest of the night. I told him I'd better not see him within 10' of me again or else. He didn't come near me again.
So I can totally understand unwanted attention that just continues and continues no matter what you say or do to try and stop it. No one deserves that when they just want to have fun playing a game.
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Creeper behavior: Not respecting someone's personal space and need for a sense of safety -- more specifically, ignoring (in the case of male creeper behavior -- women can be creepers too, but since I'm a woman and the OP seemed to be posting about women's labeling of certain men as creepers, I'll stick with assuming a man creeping out a woman) her signals that your behavior is an unwelcome infringement upon them and/or her requests that you stop. Completely independent of your attractiveness level (your attractiveness may affect whether she indicates that you should stop, but what makes you a creeper is not stopping when she indicates that you should).
Examples:
--Hitting on a woman when she's essentially trapped. (E.g. on a bus or in an elevator, or when she's in a corner and you're blocking her into it. The woman's back to the wall, and your hand on the wall so your arm is essentially blocking her in, is an especially creepy example of this.)
--Hitting on a woman when it's clear that she's engaged doing something else, and not inviting conversation. (E.g. when she's absorbed in a book, in an intense conversation with a friend, etc.)
--Continuing to hit on a woman after she's told you she's not interested, in a relationship, or that she would like to be left alone.
--Following a woman around after she's indicated she's not interested.
--Touching a woman you don't know when she's indicated she's not interested in flirting with you.
--Introducing sexual banter, imagery or explicit description into a conversation, and not backing off when others in the conversation indicate that they aren't comfortable with it.
None of these things have anything to do with how attractive a man is. Whether the woman is receptive to you continuing to hit on her, bantering or teasing with a sexual edge, etc. and therefore how quickly (if at all) she indicates that you should stop may very well depend on your attractiveness, but the gist of this is universal and completely independent of your attractiveness:
If someone is showing signs of discomfort or disinterest (e.g. not making eye contact, edging away, looking around the room past you as if for help, making excuses to leave) and you don't back off, you are being a creeper.
Something to remember is that no one owes you a chance to flirt with them. No one owes you a date or a phone number or a conversation or even a smile. And generally, acting is if they do is a big factor in whether your behavior is creepy.
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Wow. And here I thought my first response to the thread was as clear and concise as you could possibly make it. 110 posts paraphrasing exactly what I said on page 1.
What you look like may change how she reacts to you, (where she draws the line about your behavior) but since attractiveness is subjective and changes from person to person and from moment to moment, (some people clean up nice) in the context of 'is it possible to list off any behaviors that aren't ok even if you're Ryan Gosling?' the answer is no. Ambrosia does give some nice solid clear examples of where her lines are but then immediatly and politely reminds you that she's a statistical sample size of 1.
Even in the same single individual, what constitutes 'creeper' can change from moment to moment. As they pointed out above, asking a girl to take off her top at mardi gras in Lousiana can get you a much different response than asking that exact same person to do the same thing at your gaming table. So even if you're just talking about one person's personal perspective of whats ok and what isnt, you cant rely on it because, in many people, the answer changes not just based on who's doing the asking but when and how they're doing the asking.
The only solid truths about creeperhood is
Bold men will always find the line by crossing it. Creepers will cross the line and then hang out on the other side of the line, counting on one day experiencing the joys of finding someone who enjoys being yanked out of their comfort zone. Well intentioned chivalrous and respectful guys will try their level best to avoid crossing the line by staying as far from it as possible at all times, and depending on the recipient can still fail, because sometimes 'being too nice' is even a line, and since the line moves from person to person and from moment to moment and also changes based on who and how the situation is presented, theres no reliable way to even say one thing is a 'for sure 100% creeper or non creeper thing except to hope everyone's lines are drawn clearly and politely and that everyone respects everyone else's lines even if they draw them in a different place than you do.
If you don't like where someone's line for you is, first and foremost never try to move that line yourself (it will absolutely never work because it's not your line to move). Just do your best not to cross it and hope that your efforts might in time change where they set your line and if that happens, that they will be kind enough to mention it to you.
And if this game becomes more important to you than the game everyone else showed up to play then take a page from Wreck it Ralph.
One game at a time, Ralph.