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{sprays down layer of extinguishing foam as a precaution, and crosses fingers I don't accidentally cast pyrotechnics or fireball}
It's the statement that general "creeper behavior" is pervasive, and needs to be eliminated. Because, as near as I can tell, "creeper behavior" is defined as "being hit on by some guy whom I think is a creep." (Again, please correct this definition as needed; it needs a lot of polishing.)
I can't speak any other woman but myself, but I define "creeper" behavior as someone (male or female) continuing to express -- via body language, entering my physical space, language choice, unwanted "accidental" touching anywhere -- interest in physical encounter/relationship with me after I have made clear I have no interest in it. When I was younger, I tried very hard to not hurt anyone's feelings, and that too often led to the message not getting through; as I've gotten older, I am more blunt but still (hopefully) attempting to be polite.
The confusion I have is that the things a hetero woman typically finds "creepy" are (a) lower levels of testosterone-induced pheromones; (b) dressing and/or grooming in a sloppy manner (unless it's pointedly sloppy -- i.e., hipster); and (c) simple lack of height. (One can split hairs and/or add or subtract from the list, but I'm talking physiology, not philosophy.) Confusing things still further, in some cases (although not all by a long shot), a man with one, two, or all three of these things, can instead be considered a creep for NOT showing an interest.
I can't give any hard and fast rule here. I know that when I was younger, I tended to focus more on physical appearance than a possible partner's mental and social qualities. Now, when I find I am interested in someone, it usually tends to be much more their brains over bod: Can I hold interesting conversations with them? Do we have similar interests/political philosophies/(ir)religious beliefs? Do they make me laugh, and just as importantly, vice versa? Do they make me want to be a better person, both for them and myself? Do we work well as a whole, yet are they independent enough not to need to cling to me?
Physically, I tend to look at their face first and then their general health. While I prefer someone close to my height (or taller), it isn't very high on my list. I can't speak to the testosterone-levels bit ('cause I like girls), but most of my female friends seems to prefer over-all fitness, comfortableness in their own skin, and confidence as opposed to any "rugged tall handsomeness." So yeah, guys that neglect their appearance and health (due to depression, lack of social awareness/experience, or whatever) would seem to have a much harder time attracting a hetero girl's eye. That doesn't mean the shiniest bling or most fashionable clothes. You might be surprised how far just a little grooming, smelling nice (soap & water, and a little deodorant), basic cleanliness, and non-jarring clothes combinations can go. A warm (non-predatory) smile is a huge plus. I can say though, every women I've met hates the smell of Axe products, especially when applied heavily.
I have never thought someone was creepy for not expressing or reciprocating interest. NEVER.
So here's my question: does eliminating "creeper" behavior mean that all gaming areas/activities should be pointedly sexless? Or that unattractive guys be omitted? Or that women should make advances to guys they find attractive but never worry about reciprocation, or what?
I'm only about a 5/6 out of 10 on the attractiveness scale, and I almost always go out with my circle of Sapphos on... and I am still gawked at, my appearance/attractiveness commented on, or blatantly hit on. I'm not saying men (and women) should act sexless or like worker ants, but it is a huge relief when I'm just treated as an individual whose primary/sole purpose isn't for recreation/procreation. If I'm at a hobby event, I'm really just there to enjoy the hobby. If someone lightly flirts with me/chats me up, I'm not offended; it only gets frustrating, then grating, then Creeperville when I clearly demonstrate I'm not interested.
If someone lightly flirts with me/chats me up, I'm not offended; it only gets frustrating, then grating, then Creeperville when I clearly demonstrate I'm not interested.
Thanks, AS! I think this one post helped more than the rest of the discussion put together so far. I really appreciate your willingness to take me seriously and actually respond in kind (as opposed to, well, any of the alternatives we've sometimes seen).
See, what I saw in the last thread was a lot of talk about "privilege" making males act like "creepers," but no clear guidelines as to what that was or how to avoid it. You've provided them, both clearly and succinctly.
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If someone lightly flirts with me/chats me up, I'm not offended; it only gets frustrating, then grating, then Creeperville when I clearly demonstrate I'm not interested.Thanks, AS! I think this one post helped more than the rest of the discussion put together so far. I really appreciate your willingness to take me seriously and actually respond in kind (as opposed to, well, any of the alternatives we've sometimes seen).
See, what I saw in the last thread was a lot of talk about "privilege" making males act like "creepers," but no clear guidelines as to what that was or how to avoid it. You've provided them, both clearly and succinctly.
And you couldn't figure this out on your own Kirth?
And you couldn't figure this out on your own Kirth?
Honestly, with the contradictory messages flying thick and fast in the last thread, no. I'd hoped it was the case, but when people (generally guys) were saying things like "all guys are automatically creepers because of male privilege unless they follow a complicated set of invisible unspoken guidelines which I have mastered," and "there must be no mention of genders or reproduction in the game under any context, or no women will play and you're a Very Bad Person!" -- and then other people (generally guys, again) would reply, "THIS! See, he gets it!" -- then I started to really wonder.
It occurred to me that others might have been equally confused, and that getting actual gaming women's statements as to what qualifies as "creeper" would be a useful follow-up for any of the guys who were flabbergasted at some of the more outre suggestions/commands. In the last thread, the women for the most part were too busy defending against (often needlessly) argumentative counterposts to expand on that, so I thought it might be good to start another thread and just ask them outright.
If someone lightly flirts with me/chats me up, I'm not offended; it only gets frustrating, then grating, then Creeperville when I clearly demonstrate I'm not interested.Thanks, AS! I think this one post helped more than the rest of the discussion put together so far. I really appreciate your willingness to take me seriously and actually respond in kind (as opposed to, well, any of the alternatives we've sometimes seen).
Thanks. But then again, I'm just a sample of one, and a mostly-lesbian sample at that, so take what I say with a huge rock of salt. Edit: Also, I'm 32 now, so what I look for/expect is going to be different than those in the generation before me and generation after me.
Maybe I can clarify the "demonstrate" part a bit. If I clue in that someone is expressing interest in me (and I roll 1s on my Perception/Sense Motive checks too; I don't deliberately lead people on) and I'm not interested, I normally try to signal it. My posture changes/stiffens, I stop smiling, I avoid eye contact, I try to change the subject, and/or I step back/move away (even just 6 inches to a foot)... it varies depending on the context and environment. If body language doesn't get through the first couple times, I try to very politely verbalize it: "Look, maybe I'm getting my signals crossed, and you seem like a nice guy/girl, but I'm not looking right now..."
I really don't want to make a scene or embarrass someone in public, and I certainly don't want to provoke an angry response. I know from experience that opening up and risking yourself, and then getting politely shot down isn't great. Getting laughed at or mocked publicly for it really really sucks. And hey, none of us are always 100% socially aware, and that's before alcohol (or anything else), bad lighting, loud/distracting noise enters the mix. But if polite-but-subtle doesn't work, then it becomes polite-but-blunt. Thankfully it usually stops there.
(For the record, the creepiest person that repeatedly wouldn't get the message was female, 4-5 inches shorter, and about 15-20 lb. lighter.)
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Interesting stuff.
Will share my own experiences and thoughts later. For now, mad props to Kirth for tackling a few elephants in the room re: overall attractiveness and even hormone levels (a major issue!!! I work in a field where hormones play a major role!) and the role it plays in being a creeper, and to dear Amby for sharing her thoughts.
I would also point to generational issues with respect to creeper behavior of especially where white knights come in. Someone up thread made an EXCELLENT point that different generations sometimes tell young folks very different things about the world around them. The things my mother and grandmother would say or do to me if they caught me not offering a seat to a woman on the bus.... To say nothing of my father, who would probably have words with me then and there.
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It's the statement that general "creeper behavior" is pervasive, and needs to be eliminated. Because, as near as I can tell, "creeper behavior" is defined as "being hit on by some guy whom I think is a creep." (Again, please correct this definition as needed; it needs a lot of polishing.)
Creeper behavior: Being hit upon when not wanting that sort of attention. Period. Continuing to hit upon said female when she's made it clear that she's not interested. Period. Looking at females at the gaming table as nothing but an opportunity to try to get into their pants. Period.
The simple version - creeper behavior is UNWANTED sexual attention.
Look at it this way, just like you, there's at the table to game and have fun... if they were looking for a speed dating session, well, there are other venues for that. And that's regardless of whether the guys are tall, short, attractive or maybe not so attractive. If a player can't understand that there is a time and place for things, and right now she just wants to kill things and take their stuff, they might just be a creep.
Hygiene is a separate issue entirely, and should be tackled regardless of whether there are people of the opposite sex at the table.
As for sexual themes within the game itself... only when all of the players are comfortable with such things. Never assume that people you don't know all that well will be okay with that sort of thing. If you're in a game with people you've been gaming with for years, that's one thing. New players, on the other hand, should not be taken for granted. At a minimum, it's worth a discussion before it actually comes up in game.
Also, sexual themes within the game probably shouldn't be used for a particular player to be a creep 'in character' either. If one or more of your players can't be mature with sexual themes... well, you probably should avoid them when that person is playing.
I really see the creeper syndrome as more of a female problem.Especially when there is not much reason to be creeped out.
A lot, and I do mean A LOT,of women have a seriously distorted picture of men in their heads.There may be reasons in their past that I don't know of but if I indulge in social activities with them I would prefer to not be bothered with it.
I still remember the last girl that attended some games I was in, she was constantly persisting that we treat here like a guy.
That in itself would not be a problem, the problem was that we kinda did treat her like a guy.But when one of us said something in a mildly cultivated manner or held back some stuff she always was like "hey don't hold back speak freely,just talk like we are all guys around here".
It was so annoying that I had to ask her what she thinks we do or talk about when no women are around.
I mean seriously, do they think we hold farting contests and talk about tits and ass all the time?
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Continuing to hit upon said female when she's made it clear that she's not interested. Period.
This statement is helpful, because it's in terms of actual perceptible external cues. A guy can say to himself, "OK, she said no, I'm going to totally come across as a creep if I don't stow it, NOW." Cool. The "period" here is totally waranted, because there's no ambiguity.
Being hit upon when not wanting that sort of attention. Period.
This statement is totally unhelpful, because "not wanting that sort of attention," without being given clear defineable external cues, is not detectbale by other people unless they successfully detect thoughts.. And, as I started with, what makes someone open to "that sort of attention" from someone else is an unconscious mix of subtle visual, emotional, and olfactory cues -- so even the person considering bestowing or witholding that attention (and often the person receiving it!) has no idea if it will be "unwelcome" at any given point in time, if a clear signal has not already been given one way or the other. The "period" at the end of this statement is like telling some people "read my mind or you're a jerk, no exceptions or excuses!"
I know I'm a guy, and I'm also not a guy who hits on anyone at all anymore, welcomely or otherwise, buton behalf of my single brethren I'd still like to impose one guideline that will immeasureably help solve the whole "creeper" thing: If your definition of "creeper" encompasses anyone who cannot read your mind and also see into the future, it might be overly broad."
On the other hand, if your definition is "a person who keeps at it after I say no," then that definition is clear, perceptible, workable, and gives us all something we can actually use.
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Didn't read all the comment, but the original posts definition of "creepy" is pretty offensive. As some of the others said, creepy is about giving unwanted attention.And, as I pointed out, 9 times out of 10, "unwanted" is a subconscious function of hormones, height, and grooming -- like it or not, that's what decides things in most cases.
So is this simpler than "gaming" and it just becomes a general thing -- "gentlemen, if you're not tall, well-groomed, wealthy, and brimming with testosterone, DO NOT talk to females; it's unwanted and downright offensive!"
And I, 10 times out of 10 disagree... creeper behavior IS unwanted attention. All of that other stuff, hormones, height, grooming... that's all incidental. If you're showing someone unwanted attention, and they've made it clear that it's unwanted and you continue, you're a creep.
I could have Daniel *bloody* Craig at my gaming table, and if he spent his time hitting on someone who has already told him no, he's being a creep... to not mention that if he's disrupting my game by doing so, he's also being a jerk.
I could have Daniel *bloody* Craig at my gaming table, and if he spent his time hitting on someone who has already told him no, he's being a creep...
Clearly so; I should hope that no one could possibly disagree.
But what if she hasn't told him anything at all (much less "no"), because this is his very first approach, but she's not interested for some reason -- is he still a creep? You've told me, unoquivocally and with great vehemence, that "creeper behavior IS unwanted attention." And even emphasized that with a "Period." Even if he has no way of knowing whether it's unwelcome, because he hasn't said or done anything yet. Is that still his fault? Or not?
This is the part that needs clarifying.
I know that anyone who can't take "no" is an a&@$$$!. I don't know what other behavior, overt or unintentional, might trigger some unknown "unwelcome" response and ALSO make that person a "creeper."
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Not sure if I should comment here or not...
But I will say one thing. Appearance has nothing to do with creepiness in my opinion. It's all about behavior. A creepy thing that happened to me recently, I was having fun chatting in character with a male friend from online. And the guy at the next table just kept staring at me. Even when we tried to talk to him he would look away, not respond, and go back to staring at me as soon as we went back to talking. And he wasn't staring at us... just at me. Eventually we left because I was getting nervous. The man wasn't unattractive his behavior on the other hand... creepy.
I roomed with an obese girl in college. I was truly envious of the amazing guys she had calling on her. I was worlds more attractive but she was the one who had the guys attention. It came down to personality. She was the most optimistic fun loving outgoing person I had ever met, one of those people who you can't help but like. I was a timid follower of the latest trends. Sure a lot of guys came to meet me at first... but as soon as we all began talking I was forgotten in favor of her. I don't have a bad personality... she just had a ton more charisma.
As for asking someone out at a game... don't. I am there to game not to date. Asking me out is a guaranteed rejection. It makes everything awkward at the table if you ask me out regardless of who you are. Now gaming with a romantic interest can be fun, but you HAVE to win my interest outside the game. Otherwise no way. I really miss gaming with my boyfriend. He doesn't game anymore though he doesn't mind me gaming and often talks fondly of the old gaming moments. And we did meet while gaming. But he never acted creepy at all. He started doing things with me outside the game as a friend and that friendship turned into something more.
Hmmm what is creepy behavior:
- Staring.
- Not interacting with me even when I interact with you.
- Using crudely sexual or sexist language (this may just be my opinion)
- Not respecting my personal space.
- Claiming me as yours to others when we aren't even dating.
- Following me around.
- Researching personal information on me while doing anything else creepy is extra creepy.
I am sure I could think of many more but this should give you a good idea what is creepy.
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1.) Don't assume anything about a woman based on the clothes she's wearing. If she wants to attract guys, but isn't interested in you, don't whine and cry about how she's teasing. She's just not interested. Move on. Maybe consider moving on in the direction of a shower, a gym, or a decent clothing store.
2.) Don't assume that females are less knowledgeable. Don't try to help them with their characters unless they ask for your help or you're the GM and you really are helping everybody.
3.) Don't assume that playstyles (tactical vs. role-playing) are gendered in any particular way. Don't assume party roles are gendered, either.
4.) Be very careful including sex in game. Don't include forced sex. Don't force pregnancy on female characters.
5.) Do not touch me.
6.) Don't hold doors if you're in the awkward zone: http://i.imgur.com/mGMTr.jpg
7.) Plenty of things that are not creepy coming from one person turn creepy when they're coming from ALL THE PEOPLE. Give a girl some space.
Aranna,
I'm very glad you did decide to comment! These are really, really useful -- they're all clearly-identifiable, require no ESP of any kind, and don't even require a particular degree of intelligence to understand and follow. No guy can possibly read this list and possibly be confused as to what you mean.
As for asking someone out at a game... don't.
Awesome! I don't know how that could possibly be more clear. It's easy to follow, again requires no mind reading, doesn't depend on subtle environmental or personal factors -- in short, it sounds like very good advice.
Thanks again for weighing in.
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In some guys defense, I think "unwanted sexual attention" may not be clear enough. I don't mean they are socially obtuse or clueless, just that society, the media, friends, and even family give us all (male and female, Edit: and others in-between) a lot of often contradictory, vague, unhelpful, and unrealistic information.
It's been my experience that women are generally somewhat better at gathering and sending social clues. I don't know if this conditioned/taught/experience or innate/intuitive, or likely somewhere in-between. But even with my experience, I still often can't read other womens' intentions even when they seem to be actively or passively expressing interest in me. That means one of us has to approach the other. I try to know her as a person first. I try not to catch her in a socially inappropriate location or time. I try not place her in a position where I have a power/position advantage. And anything resembling unease/discomfort/disinterest from her is a clear unequivocal NO. So, empathy/"Do on to others", etc.
But sometimes signals get misread (or mis-sent). If I (or she) can make the mistake, I gotta try to extend random dude(s) the same courtesy. Once someone has signaled that the attention is unwanted though...
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I really see the creeper syndrome as more of a female problem.Especially when there is not much reason to be creeped out.
A lot, and I do mean A LOT,of women have a seriously distorted picture of men in their heads.There may be reasons in their past that I don't know of but if I indulge in social activities with them I would prefer to not be bothered with it.
I still remember the last girl that attended some games I was in, she was constantly persisting that we treat here like a guy.
That in itself would not be a problem, the problem was that we kinda did treat her like a guy.But when one of us said something in a mildly cultivated manner or held back some stuff she always was like "hey don't hold back speak freely,just talk like we are all guys around here".It was so annoying that I had to ask her what she thinks we do or talk about when no women are around.
I mean seriously, do they think we hold farting contests and talk about t!#+ and ass all the time?
It's most certainly not a female problem, no matter what you might think... says the bisexual male gamer who has been on the receiving end of unwanted attention from another male gamer... but that will lead into a different rant, "No, just because I share a sexual orientation with you does not mean I am interested..."
That said, I think we hear about this more from female gamers because well, a) simple statistics - most people are straight, more male than female gamers; and b) a lot of really screwed up social mores that encourage aggressive male/passive female interactions as well as society not doing a fantastic job of teaching males to hear 'no', or teaching females to say 'no'.
It's most certainly not generally a matter of overly sensitive women, though I suppose exceptions still happen.
@Firefly:
Awesome list. 1-5 and 7 are crystal-clear and, I should hope, pretty hard to argue with.
I can't view the cartoon for #6, but I have to admit that it absolutely makes my blood boil when people of any gender blatantly let doors slam shut in each others' faces, so I pretty much always hold a door -- again, regardless of gender or anything else -- as a means of acknowledging another person's existence. Kind of like tipping a millimetric nod to someone you pass on a narrow sidewalk. I'm not totally clear what the "awkward zone" is, but I try to err on the side of being polite.
society, the media, friends, and even family give us all (male and female, Edit: and others in-between) a lot of often contradictory, vague, unhelpful, and unrealistic information.
I think you've divined my intent behind the thread precisely. Thank you again.
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Actually I normally really like chivalrous behavior. Feel free to hold a door for me anytime you want. I don't like when the GM has an overbearing sort of chivalry. I played in one game where the GM placed a super mega NPC into the game just to make sure I was always safe... I was playing the game to have fun. Some of that fun is letting me fight my own battles. If I lose a fight and get killed I am not going to cry... I am probably going to roll up a new character.
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I could have Daniel *bloody* Craig at my gaming table, and if he spent his time hitting on someone who has already told him no, he's being a creep...Clearly so; I should hope that no one could possibly disagree.
But what if she hasn't told him anything at all, and this is his first approach, but she's not interested for some reason -- is he still a creep? You've told me, unoquivocally and with great vehemence, that "creeper behavior IS unwanted attention." And even emphasized that with a "Period." Even if he has no way of knowing whether it's unwelcome, because he hasn't said or done anything yet. Is that still his fault? Or not?
This is the part that needs clarifying.
I know that anyone who can't take "no" is an a!~!+$*. I don't know what other behavior, overt or unintentional, might trigger some unknown "unwelcome" response and ALSO make that person a "creeper."
Gotcha... all I can here is that I'm not sure that you will ever get a clear answer. Some people (my experience is that women are more prone to it in western society) are just NOT good at conflict, and will avoid such, and sadly that may mean that they don't speak up and say 'no.'
Assuming that <b>edit:</b> one is not autistic/aspie, my experience is that it will eventually be clear that the other person is uncomfortable. Sadly, it might not be clear until after you've crossed that line... and that's why you see a lot of the sort of advice like you listed in the previous thread.
About all I can recommend here is to never assume that someone is okay with your advances JUST because they haven't told you otherwise. Often, it will be somewhat clear if yes or no... but not always. If you're unsure, AND you're concerned... you can try asking them. If you're still not sure at that point, safest to assume no.
And I'm totally onboard with not making advances at men/women at the game table, especially in public venues. Just assume that they're there to have fun as well. Get to know them as gamers and friends and go with it from there.
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society, the media, friends, and even family give us all (male and female, Edit: and others in-between) a lot of often contradictory, vague, unhelpful, and unrealistic information.I think you've divined my intent behind the thread precisely. Thank you again.
You and I haven't always agreed in the past, and have heated discussions, but my general take is you offer positions or ask questions in good faith. Asking for honest illumination or clarity shouldn't be treated as a crime or shouted down. :)
Assuming that you're not autistic/aspie, my experience is that it usually will be clear that you're making the other person uncomfortable. Sadly, it might not be clear until after you've crossed that line... and that's why you see a lot of the sort of advice like you listed in the previous thread. About all I can recommend here is to never assume that someone is okay with your advances JUST because they haven't told you otherwise.
Just to be clear, people, this is a general "you" and not referring to me specifically. I'm very happy with Mrs Gersen and generally have no romantic inclinations whatsoever where she isn't concerned.
But a lot of other guys are single, and get a lot of contradictory messages, and are probably as confused as I am -- but in a much more directly-applicable way.
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Assuming that you're not autistic/aspie, my experience is that it usually will be clear that you're making the other person uncomfortable. Sadly, it might not be clear until after you've crossed that line... and that's why you see a lot of the sort of advice like you listed in the previous thread. About all I can recommend here is to never assume that someone is okay with your advances JUST because they haven't told you otherwise.Just to be clear, people, this is a general "you" and not referring to me specifically. I'm very happy with Mrs Gersen and generally have no romantic inclinations whatsoever where she isn't concerned.
But a lot of other guys are single, and get a lot of contradictory messages, and are probably as confused as I am -- but in a much more directly-applicable way.
I should have been more clear that I meant the "autistic/aspie" as a general you as well and not specifically aimed at you.
This stuff can get messy and confusing... if that weren't the case there wouldn't be so many self-help books on the subject.
starting it with the focus on aspects of "creepy" that aren't behavior and aren't controllable (pheremones and height) and on how confusing not being creepy is, was not a good way to go about it.
While there are certainly subconscious elements at play, every single woman I've heard complain about creepy males at gaming or other social events has talked about behavior.
If a person finds someone else attractive (physically, emotionally, or otherwise), they'll allow behavior that they'd absolutely crucify a less attractive person for. Add selective blinders and confirmation bias, etc. That's simple fact.
So what I wanted to do was get past that by blatantly stating those things up front, so that people would be aware of them in their responses. To get past the "don't hit on me if I don't want you to" -- which no one has any way of knowing, because of all that stuff, and instead get to the "don't do W or X after I say Y or do Z." Which people have done.
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starting it with the focus on aspects of "creepy" that aren't behavior and aren't controllable (pheremones and height) and on how confusing not being creepy is, was not a good way to go about it.
While there are certainly subconscious elements at play, every single woman I've heard complain about creepy males at gaming or other social events has talked about behavior.
Because, in general, when people whom they find attractive pay them compliments, most people don't find that unwanted -- indeed, they draw the "unwanted" line in wildly different places. If a person finds someone else attractive, they'll allow behavior that they'd crucify a less attractive person for. Add confirmation bias, etc. That's simple fact.
So what I wanted to do was get past that by blatantly stating those things up front, so that people would be aware of them in their responses.
I think you may be putting far too much weight on the degree to which that matters... behavior and the context of the social venue matter far more than whether the guy/gal is good looking. At a venue where one can reasonably expect to be hit upon, like a bar, sure.
At the gaming table, where one just wants to kill things and take their stuff, not as much. At least, not in my experience.
I think you may be putting far too much weight on the degree to which that matters...
Observation has taught me otherwise. Guy #1 respectfully asks, "Would you like to have a drink with me later?" He happens to be psychically unappealing -- response after he leaves is "Oh, my god! EW! What a creep!!!"
Guy #2 looms over her and says, "Hey, let's get out of here and go somewhere else," and he happens to be appealing? Almost as often as not, I've seen women grab their purses (not immediately, but eventually). At the very least, the "no" gets a nice smile to go with it.
If you make it a conscious point to watch for how differently people act around attractive vs. unattractive other people, it's mind-blowing. Tina Fey's skit on "30 Rock" about the "beautiful people bubble" is uncannily close to the mark.
The problem isn't appearance... it's just that shallow people tend to look for love at a bar.
The problem isn't appearance... it's just that shallow people tend to look for love at a bar.
...and everywhere else, for that matter! I've seen people act that way at the grocery store, so I can't imagine that, short of posting a "ABSOLUTELY NO ASKING PEOPLE OUT OR ACCEPTING OFFERS OF SAME" sign at a convention, you'd totally eliminate it.
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The easiest way to breach the beautiful people bubble is to be self confident, attractiveness is just an easy way to get self confidence.
To be clear, I have no particular interest in breaching it; I just wanted some clear guidelines as to what's definitely "creepy" (vs. "I personally happen to find that person indefinably creepy") -- so that people can avoid/eliminate the definite stuff, bubble or no.
I imagine the biggest issue might be lack of self confidence coming across as creepy in the wrong situation. But the only way to fix that is to improve your self confidence.
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The easiest way to breach the beautiful people bubble is to be self confident, attractiveness is just an easy way to get self confidence.
Truth, though I have known quite a number of physically quite attractive people that were, well, seriously lacking in self confidence if/when you got to know them.
Firstly: This isn't meant to be flame bait or anything, just an honest question:
Some of the women here have said simply "don't ask". This, I agree with.
But, they've also said things like "we did things outside the game".
Ok.
So.. How did this come about?
If The guys are creeps for asking someone they met at the table, how do you ever get to "we hung around outside the game"?
Do we wait for the women to ask first? Or is there something I'm missing?
-S
If self-confidence (based on attractiveness or otherwise) is all it takes to stop being a "creeper" and become "Mr. Right" -- or vice-versa -- then I'd submit there's no point in any discussion; we might as well just say, "guys, unless your Cha score is 18, kill yourself now (or at least stay at home and don't ever come out) so that women will feel safe at gaming events."
Luckily, we've gotten a number of suggestions as to what's creepy regardless of who does it (even Daniel Craig!). Those are things we can focus on eliminating, if doing so will make gaming events more accessible to women.
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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Don't white knight .... The only time I give up a seat it's for the elderly, pregnant, ill or parents with children. Women are fully capable standing or entering a lift or going through a door after you.This 'White Knight' bit is a cultural thing I guess. I was raised to treat all women a certain way as a matter of propriety, and its difficult to break habits ingrained as right and wrong.
Same here. You don't like me being an 1890's guy? Ask me to stop the first time I do it. You yell at me for being an 1890's kind of guy with no warning. Expect the full gentleman treatment. My Dad, mom and GRandma raised me this way. :-)
Assuming that you're not autistic/aspie, my experience is that it usually will be clear that you're making the other person uncomfortable. Sadly, it might not be clear until after you've crossed that line... and that's why you see a lot of the sort of advice like you listed in the previous thread. About all I can recommend here is to never assume that someone is okay with your advances JUST because they haven't told you otherwise.Just to be clear, people, this is a general "you" and not referring to me specifically. I'm very happy with Mrs Gersen and generally have no romantic inclinations whatsoever where she isn't concerned.
But a lot of other guys are single, and get a lot of contradictory messages, and are probably as confused as I am -- but in a much more directly-applicable way.
Well done Kirth,
I too am very very happy with Mrs T8D, I have had many of my female friends not enjoy cons and games as much as they should because of the behavior of the guy beside her at the table.
It is not fair that female gamers need to deal with a guy trying to get a date/check them out (constantly) at the table.
When at a game always assume she is not interested and any advances would be un welcome.
It doesn't mean you should stop interacting with women, just don't try it on.
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1.) I'm here to game first. That is my priority when I sit down to game—everything else is secondary.
2.) If you're going to flirt with me, or ask me out, or do anything besides game, do it AFTER game, or during breaks, or whatever. Not during game. (Seriously, GMs have a hard enough time keeping everybody focused—I know I do when I GM...)
For everybody, don't jump to conclusions... Just because somebody holds the door open for you doesn't mean they're trying to get in your pants (they might be trying to be polite), nor does asking to spend time with you outside of game mean they want to have a Serious Relationship. They could just want waffles at Denny's.
...in general, when people whom they find attractive pay them compliments, most people don't find that unwanted -- indeed, they draw the "unwanted" line in wildly different places. If a person finds someone else attractive, they'll allow behavior that they'd absolutely crucify a less attractive person for. Add confirmation bias, etc. That's simple fact.
So what I wanted to do was get past that by blatantly stating those things up front, so that people would be aware of them in their responses. To get past the "don't hit on me if I don't want you to" -- which no one has any way of knowing, because of all that stuff, and instead get to the "don't do W or X after I say Y or do Z." Which people have done.
OK, here's an anecdote. Many woman generally ping that I'm lesbian without me bringing it up or flirting with them. There were even a few who figured it out before I did. Yet routinely, I'm able to comment about how I like their hair or shoes or whatevs, without being taken as harassment. Yet, at one workplace, a (strikingly handsome) male co-worker felt free to comment on female co-workers appearance, fully intending to be supportive, and a couple later hinted (or outright said) to me they felt very uncomfortable. Unfortunately, it then got escalated to HR who staged a sit-down with him before I could pull him aside after work. And the male co-worker... was quietly gay (although I knew). He wouldn't have imagined being free with similar well-intentioned comments to guys because guys generally don't find it socially acceptable. But in trying to pass as straight, he'd picked up this particular guy behavior without even considering how other women would take it. All ended happily though, and the women (including the one who spoke to HR) felt immediately relieved when he apologized and outted himself to them. Again, this is just a single anecdote, so take it with salt (and maybe a shot of tequila and lime).
I won't rule out the engager's physical attractiveness entirely, but I think the interaction (innocent or flirty) has much more to do how it's presented and the situation. I also think perceived attractive non-physical characteristics in the engager -- or at least the perceived lack of unattractive or threatening characteristics -- play a far bigger role in how such interaction is interpreted.
Edit: I type way too slow.
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1.) I'm here to game first. That is my priority when I sit down to game—everything else is secondary.
2.) If you're going to flirt with me, or ask me out, or do anything besides game, do it AFTER game, or during breaks, or whatever. Not during game. (Seriously, GMs have a hard enough time keeping everybody focused—I know I do when I GM...)For everybody, don't jump to conclusions... Just because somebody holds the door open for you doesn't mean they're trying to get in your pants (they might be trying to be polite), nor does asking to spend time with you outside of game mean they want to have a Serious Relationship. They could just want waffles at Denny's.
I agree with all that, and offer a suggestion. If some guy does start making advances toward you during the game, just tell him, "I'd like to concentrate on the game right now, but how about we talk more afterwards?" Most guys would respect that.
Firstly: This isn't meant to be flame bait or anything, just an honest question:
Some of the women here have said simply "don't ask". This, I agree with.
But, they've also said things like "we did things outside the game".
Ok.So.. How did this come about?
If The guys are creeps for asking someone they met at the table, how do you ever get to "we hung around outside the game"?
Do we wait for the women to ask first? Or is there something I'm missing?
-S
I am a little confused... you have a phone don't you? Just call her sometime outside of game time and talk.
Lilith -- all good stuff.
And we've gotten enough independent female responses of "just hold off asking out girls during the game," that it seems like that can be taken as a clear, unambiguous suggestion. It requires no mind reading or clairvoyance of any kind. It applies regardless of attractiveness, self-confidence, magic mojo, orientation, or intent. It makes no prior judgments regarding privilege or any other hot buzz words. And if it also makes public gaming spaces more accessible/welcoming to women, I'm all for it, and would strongly encourage my fellow (hetero male) gamers to go with it, too.
In my experience, Asperger's syndrome is a frequent occurrence in both male and female gamers. This should come as no surprise. Aspies are drawn to activities where the rules are clear and written down, which this hobby provides in spades, unlike so many other hobbies where social interaction is the basis for a large part of success. Team sports, drama, parties, clubs... The list goes on. To cement this, the environment in gaming is open and tolerant in general, plus of course there are other Aspies there. So... Don't be surprised if your social cues often get unnoticed. Whatever you do, don't crucify one of your gaming friends for a very inept pass at you despite your social cues. Many people (of both sexes) think they are obviously saying no, when in truth they would have needed to be very direct and blatant. I.e. No backing some inches, but saying "As I understand it, you are flirting with me. That is why I have to tell you that I am not interested, and I want you to stop flirting with me." If you are not absolutely clear, your message will fly right past, and when you bring out the creeper card, it will be seen as coming right out of the blue. The realistic response to that will be various versions of "I got called a creeper for showing interest, with no warning, all <insert your sex here> are disgusting pieces of shit who deserve being creeped at". No, it is not fair that this ends up on your shoulders. Very few things in life are fair. As some sort of consolation, if someone is that level of socially inept, they will probably end up grateful for your honesty once the pain passes. Few enough people walk that extra few yards in communication.
If self-confidence (based on attractiveness or otherwise) is all it takes to stop being a "creeper" and become "Mr. Right" -- or vice-versa -- then I'd submit there's no point in any discussion; we might as well just say, "guys, unless your Cha score is 18, kill yourself now (or at least stay at home and don't ever come out) so that women will feel safe at gaming events."
Luckily, we've gotten a number of suggestions as to what's creepy regardless of who does it (even Daniel Craig!). Those are things we can focus on eliminating, if doing so will make gaming events more accessible to women.
What are you talking about? Self confidence just gets doors opened for you. If you still act creepy no one is going to date you self confident or not. I think you are seriously misunderstanding something.
I am a little confused... you have a phone don't you? Just call her sometime outside of game time and talk.
Asking a woman for her phone number is generally viewed as hitting on her, which we've established is a no-no at games.
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Firstly: This isn't meant to be flame bait or anything, just an honest question:
Some of the women here have said simply "don't ask". This, I agree with.
But, they've also said things like "we did things outside the game".
Ok.So.. How did this come about?
If The guys are creeps for asking someone they met at the table, how do you ever get to "we hung around outside the game"?
Do we wait for the women to ask first? Or is there something I'm missing?
-S
"Hey, everyone, lets go for a pizza after game!" or "That was good session. By the way, anyone wants to theater see Iron Man 3 tomorrow?" or anything else directed at socializing with the group, developing the relations above merely co-gamer allowing people to know each other better.