I was just reading over the description of Phase Door and marvelling at the fact that it's a 7th level spell while the superior Dimension Door and vastly superior Teleport are only 4th and 5th level respectively.
What spells would you consider the most aggregiously mis-leveled as written, both over and under?
Gosh I cant think of any at the moment, But I know more lower level spells should continue to scale with level, thats one of my biggest complaints. Certain spells I don't think should exist like wish and time stop (wish should be kept for limited powers, story plot etc of genies etc)
But then again there doesn't seem like there are a lot of choices for high level spells to begin with.
Haste.
The usual whipping boy for over-leveled spells is Polar Ray. 1d6/level cold damage to one target, plus a token amount of Dex drain -- that could be a level 3 spell easily, instead of level 8!
Haste.
so are you saying haste is too low of a level? or too high?
Haste.
Seconded. The Words of Power version really cements that idea (Time Words: Accelerate).
Haste.so are you saying haste is too low of a level? or too high?
For what you get, I think 4th or 5th level would fit it better as there are few spells that can have such a huge effect on how quickly encounters are ended.
It boggles my mind a bit that the 3rd edition version of the spell let you cast an extra spell.
Mass Cure Light Wounds and its siblings. As a 5th level spell, it's simply never worth learning.
It boggles my mind a bit that the 3rd edition version of the spell let you cast an extra spell.
Yes, but it only affected a single target which is a significant difference. Back in 3.0 haste was a self buff for casters. I would say it was actually less powerful overall, though of course it depended on level. At higher levels a caster casting twice probably makes the martials irrelevant. IIRC I don't think casters bothered with hasting the fighters all too much (until mass haste at 6th).
Haste
Transmutation
Level: Brd 3, Sor/Wiz 3
Components: V, S, M
Casting Time: 1 action
Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Target: One creature
Duration: 1 round/level
Saving Throw: Fortitude negates (harmless)
Spell Resistance: Yes (harmless)
The transmuted creature moves and acts more quickly than normal. This extra speed has several effects.
On its turn, the subject may take an extra partial action, either before or after its regular action.
The subject gains a +4 haste bonus to AC. The subject loses this bonus whenever it would lose a dodge bonus.
The subject can jump one and a half times as far as normal. This increase counts as an enhancement bonus.
Haste dispels and counters slow.
Mass Cure Light Wounds and its siblings. As a 5th level spell, it's simply never worth learning.
Yeah, about the only excuse I can see for anyone using that is an oracle that can't channel, though even then the healing is pretty lackluster.
I certainly couldn't see a cleric using it. Heck, that's the breath of life level.
Eagle aerie should be 5th at minimum. It's cool, but just not more than teleport of wind walk.
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Mass Cure Light Wounds and its siblings. As a 5th level spell, it's simply never worth learning.Yeah, about the only excuse I can see for anyone using that is an oracle that can't channel, though even then the healing is pretty lackluster.
I certainly couldn't see a cleric using it. Heck, that's the breath of life level.
They were fantastic back when you had the Augment Healing feat.
They were fantastic back when you had the Augment Healing feat.Mass Cure Light Wounds and its siblings. As a 5th level spell, it's simply never worth learning.Yeah, about the only excuse I can see for anyone using that is an oracle that can't channel, though even then the healing is pretty lackluster.
I certainly couldn't see a cleric using it. Heck, that's the breath of life level.
Yes, yes they were. Quite impressive, in fact.
Considering its range and versatility, I think Silent Image is a fair candidate for being under-leveled as is Charm Person when you take into account its duration.
Invisibility is pretty powerful for 2nd level and Teleportation is very powerful for 5th level in my opinion.
Gust of Wind should be a 2nd.
Blindness/Deafness with a duration of permanent should be 3rd.
Rope Trick should be 3rd.
All the create Pit spells should probably be bumped up a level.
Locate Weakness should be a 1st or 2nd level spell.
Fire Trap is too high at 4th as is Locate Creature and (Lesser) Age Resistance.
Those are a few of the lower level ones that come to mind.
Here's a preposterously over leveled spell:
This ninth (yes, I said ninth) level spell gives you +2 AC, +2 reflex saves, and you can't be surprised. It is also the only ninth level divination spell so a divination specialist has to take it.
One is left speechless at how awful that spell is for its level (compare to, oh, wish, create demiplane(greater), power word kill, weird, etc).
Releveling:
Phase Door: Should be 6th
Polar Ray: 1d6/level means it is appropriate at 3rd or 4th, in PF it has a secondary effect so maybe closer to 4th but a weak 4th.
Mass CLW is a 4th really, which would you rather cast CCW or MCLW (although if we break the rules letting you target same creature multiple times it might beat CCW almost)?
Fireball/Lightning Bolt that deals 3d6, 1d6/level (max 1d6) is fine as 2nd level spell.
Eagle aerie should be 5th, 4th Druid
Gust of Wind 2nd
Foresight is 8th
Cone of Cold is 3rd (deals 1d6/level)
Chain Lightning is 4th
Ice Storm is 3rd
Metoeor Swarm at 8th
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Mass Cure Light Wounds and its siblings. As a 5th level spell, it's simply never worth learning.
Especially given the existence of channeling. Yes, the mass cure spell progression should have started at 4th level. (Possibly even 3rd, but that's probably too much.)
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They don't *have* to take it. Not as long as there are other divinations they don't know.
The bonus spell slot you get for a given level has to be in your school for a specialist.
Now I suppose you could take a lower level divination in your ninth level slot, but that's rather pathetic.
Fly should be 4th
Haste should be 5th
Fireball/Lightning bolt should be 2nd
Magic Missile/Shocking Grasp/Chill Touch/Burning Hands/ETC should be cantrips
Polar Ray is such a high level because of its MAXIMUM damage, not its overall effect.
Fireball at 3rd level maxes out at 10d6
Acidic spray at 5th level maxes out at 15d6.
Cold Ice Strike at 6th level maxes out at 15d6.
Delayed Blast Fireball at 7th level maxes out at 20d6.
Polar Ray at 8th level maxes out at 25d6.
That sort of spell level to max damage increase has been around since the beginning.
It boggles my mind a bit that the 3rd edition version of the spell let you cast an extra spell.
Yes, but it only affected a single target which is a significant difference. Back in 3.0 haste was a self buff for casters. I would say it was actually less powerful overall, though of course it depended on level. At higher levels a caster casting twice probably makes the martials irrelevant. IIRC I don't think casters bothered with hasting the fighters all too much (until mass haste at 6th).
Haste
Transmutation
Level: Brd 3, Sor/Wiz 3
Components: V, S, M
Casting Time: 1 action
Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Target: One creature
Duration: 1 round/level
Saving Throw: Fortitude negates (harmless)
Spell Resistance: Yes (harmless)The transmuted creature moves and acts more quickly than normal. This extra speed has several effects.
On its turn, the subject may take an extra partial action, either before or after its regular action.
The subject gains a +4 haste bonus to AC. The subject loses this bonus whenever it would lose a dodge bonus.
The subject can jump one and a half times as far as normal. This increase counts as an enhancement bonus.
Haste dispels and counters slow.
I still prefer this version of Haste and Mass Haste to the current version. It is easier to use and makes much more sense.
Releveling:
Phase Door: Should be 6th
Polar Ray: 1d6/level means it is appropriate at 3rd or 4th, in PF it has a secondary effect so maybe closer to 4th but a weak 4th.
Mass CLW is a 4th really, which would you rather cast CCW or MCLW (although if we break the rules letting you target same creature multiple times it might beat CCW almost)?
Fireball/Lightning Bolt that deals 3d6, 1d6/level (max 1d6) is fine as 2nd level spell.
Eagle aerie should be 5th, 4th Druid
Gust of Wind 2nd
Foresight is 8th
Cone of Cold is 3rd (deals 1d6/level)
Chain Lightning is 4th
Ice Storm is 3rd
Metoeor Swarm at 8th
I very much disagree with you saying Cone of Cold should be 3rd. Remember cone of cold also has a 15d6 max damage while fireball and lightning bolt is only 10d6.
People seem to forget the max damage a spell can do when considering the level of a spell. Remember there is a metamagic feat that upps the max damage a spell can do by 5 levels for a +1 level enhancement. Max damage is an important factor when looking at what a spell can do. It makes the spell more relevant at higher levels and scaling for damage for the higher level monsters.
Here's a preposterously over leveled spell:
This ninth (yes, I said ninth) level spell gives you +2 AC, +2 reflex saves, and you can't be surprised. It is also the only ninth level divination spell so a divination specialist has to take it.
The potentially powerful bit is the "gives you a general idea of what action you might take to best protect yourself" clause.
The potentially powerful bit is the "gives you a general idea of what action you might take to best protect yourself" clause.Here's a preposterously over leveled spell:
This ninth (yes, I said ninth) level spell gives you +2 AC, +2 reflex saves, and you can't be surprised. It is also the only ninth level divination spell so a divination specialist has to take it.
It's what makes the munchkins wet themselves in excitement.
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Detect Magic ought not to be a spell at all; it's my contention that if someone in the game is capable of casting spells, they should have fundamental knowledge/training that would teach them to recognize the presence of magic.
No matter how you justify its presence, having a cantrip that allows anyone to scan for magic auras and magic items at a whim's notice just takes the fun away from the game for me.
As for the haste, yeah, power injection of epic proportions in my opinion. Not my cup of tea.
Call me old fashion if you must.
In any case, the game is built well enough that I can tone down the "insanity" for my own purposes. I am a happy customer but only for the core books. I will never spend a dime on adventure paths.
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Detect Magic ought not to be a spell at all; it's my contention that if someone in the game is capable of casting spells, they should have fundamental knowledge/training that would teach them to recognize the presence of magic.No matter how you justify its presence, having a cantrip that allows anyone to scan for magic auras and magic items at a whim's notice just takes the fun away from the game for me.
As for the haste, yeah, power injection of epic proportions in my opinion. Not my cup of tea.
Call me old fashion if you must.
In any case, the game is built well enough that I can tone down the "insanity" for my own purposes. I am a happy customer but only for the core books. I will never spend a dime on adventure paths.
It's my opinion that when Paizo decided they were going to make cantrips and orisons essentially at-will abilities, they should have taken a harder look at each of them and thought about potential abuse. There are several that should have been slightly powered up (or even not) and bumped up to 1st level spells.