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Adding Wisdom to Damage

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Is there any way in which I can add Wisdom modifier to damage in PFS play? I think there is an weapon enchantment that does it (Guided - http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/magic-weapons/magic-weapons-non-core/we apon-property---guided) but I don't think it was PFS legal.

There is the guided weapon property, but I don't believe it is usable in PFS. I don't know of any way to add wisdom modifier to damage in PFS.

Thanks. Yeah I found just after you posted and edited my post. Darn, as a Zen Archer I was really hoping to not need strength for a composite bow. Anybody have recommendations for upping the damage on a bow for a monk (hopefully without too many enhancements)?

Don't worry too much about the strength. The most any archer character should invest is to 14 Str anyway.

Deadly aim will scale nicely, except not as well as if you were full BAB. UMD a wand of gravity bow will make your arrows do 2d6 base. Point black shot, of course.

My favorite items for my archers are Bracers of Falcon's Aim (4000gp) and a Pendant of the Blood Scarab (1000gp). Bracers make your crit threat 19-20, give you +1 to hit with your bow, and as a bonus give you +3 perception. Pendant can be activated 1/day to do 1d6 damage to self plus autoconfirm a crit. Critting with a longbow is by far the best way to do heaps of damage since you're x3. Maybe even carry 2-3 Pendants and swap them once used in a day.

Aside from that, yeah, get your bow to +2 as soon as you can, make sure to have a variety of arrows for the situation.

Might try the Pendant, although I do like the Amulet of Natural Armor. Eventually Gravity Bow will be worthless because a Zen Archer can replace his bow damage dice with that of unarmed attacks. Of course, then I can just use lead blades on my fists to get the same effect. Technically, I'm at full BAB with FoB for bow, which ZA gets.

By the way, it says for FoB I count my BAB as my monk level, so would deadly aim scale along with that? I think it would.

As an archer, AC isn't very important. And yeah, though I'm not a monk rules expert, sounds like DA would scale as full BAB for you.

Gravity Bow will never be worthless. Unarmed damage doesn't surpass your bow's 1d8 until near the level PFS play ends. And any round you're using ki arrow is a round you're not using the "get an extra attack" option. I can guarantee you, the higher base damage of ki arrow will never beat out the extra damage of getting a whole extra attack. Never.

Yar!

I don't play PFS atm, so I not sure if this is legal or not, but it is a feat from the Faction Guide. Ki Diversity. Specifically, the Zen Combatant sub-option.

Zen Combatant wrote:
You may spend 1 point from your ki pool as a swift action to substitute your Wisdom score for your Strength or Dexterity for all melee or ranged attacks you make that round.

It is limited by your ki pool, but is more likely to be a legal option (again, not 100% on that as I don't do PFS atm). Also requires you to have 25 TPA with the Kusari-Gama Faction.

But it may be a viable option for you.

~P

You're right. "Worthless" was a bit strong and that was when I was forgetting the extra attack which is great. Still, the UMD is 20 and CHA is a dump stat for me, so I'll have to find a caster, along with Arcane Armor.

Also, for Zen Combatant, that only applies to attack rolls, not damage rolls. A Zen Archer already has the option to use WIS modifier instead of DEX for ranged attacks, at no penalty such as expending a ki point.

You'll be ok w/ str to damage. What races out of core are PFS legal? Ideally you want a race that's +Wis/Str or +Wis/Dex and -Cha. Barring any options for that, Dwarf is the best core race Zen Archer.

20 point buy dwarf:

Str 14, Dex 14, Con 14, Int 12, Wis 18, Cha 5

All level up points go to wis, and your first stat booster is +2 wis, followed by +2 str.

If you can get Oread or maybe a Tiefling or Aasimar variant that has the same stats as Oread (+2 Wis/Str, -2 Cha), you could swing these starting stats:

Str 16, Dex 14, Con 12, Int 12, Wis 18, Cha 5

Was probably going to go a Tiefling alternate heritage. An Oni get +2 Str, +2 Wis, -2 Cha and their spell like ability is useful. The only good Aasimar is +2 Dex, +2 Wis and its racial abilities are worse than a Tiefling's for the build. An Asura Tiefling buffs Wis and Dex but takes a penalty to Int instead of Cha which isn't preferable. A Dwarf is a problem because Con doesn't need to be favored.

Basically, Wis >> Dex > Str >> Con > Int >> Cha (>> marks large jumps).

Probably going to go with Oni over Asura.

Oni: 20 Point Build: 16 Str (5) 14 Dex (5) 12 Con (2) 12 Int (2) 18 Wis (10) 5 Cha (-4)

I'd rather have Dex over Str (AC and Reflex) but there doesn't seem a good way to do it.

Oread would be nice, but it requires unlocking unlike a Tiefling. The alternate racial trait to deflect rays is nice. Of course, Tiefling's can take a single feat to get +2 Natural Armor (which works with Amulet of Natural Armor because AoNA is enhancement bonus). That way I get 10 + 2 (Dex) + 4(Wis) + 2(Nat) whenever I take the feat. Throw in +4 from a wand of Mage Armor and the AC is ridiculous.

Yar.

Apparently there is some contention on whether Zen Combatant is for attack rolls only or for everything attack related (to hit and damage rolls)... but it doesn't matter in this case, as it is not PFS legal. Apparently, the only feat from the Faction Guide that is is Fast Crawl (according to this, at least).

~P
Grand Lodge
jmclaus wrote:
You're right. "Worthless" was a bit strong and that was when I was forgetting the extra attack which is great. Still, the UMD is 20 and CHA is a dump stat for me, so I'll have to find a caster, along with Arcane Armor.

FYI: Both Gravity Bow and Lead Blades are personal spells, so you would have to cast them on yourself.

There may be a workaround, using a spell storing item and a wand or scrolls, with the aid of a caster who has the spell on their list, but that tends to smell of cheese.

There is also the question of whether, or even if, Lead Blades or Gravity Bow would boost the damage die if you use the ki substitution....

I didn't know that about Gravity Bow and Lead Blades and I really don't want to invest in UMD after dumping Cha. Just to clarify, the DC is 20 for using the wands as they aren't on my (non-existent) spell book?

As for ki substitution, the SRD says I do damage equal to that of my unarmed attacks and my unarmed attacks damage would be changed, so it seems that I would. Obviously I couldn't use both at once because it is a substitution.

Wonder if there's an Oil of Gravity Bow option?

Also, noting on your point buy you give 12 CON for a cost of 0, which shouldn't be right.

And finally, don't worry too much about min-maxing, Archers in PFS are the strongest attack damage type, and Zen Archers are right up there with the best of them, so it should be pretty easy for you to be effective in the damage department.

Oops, said finally, but actually, if you're PFS you might want to consider no dumping CHA so much (yes, you're already MAD, but hear me out.) For one, there are at least a few scenarios which I've encountered where you'll potentially suffer CHA damage, and once down to 0 you're unconscious until the condition is cleared.) Second, having Diplomacy is very important in PFS. If you haven't yet decided on your traits, consider Ease of Faith for Diplomacy as a class skill and +1 to it (not sure if Diplo is a class skill for monks...) Not suggesting boosting CHA to 10, but 8 or at least 6 might come in handy.

PFS rewards well-roundedness more than specialization... though I'm not trying to start that argument here, so just to be clear, you still need to be really good at what you're tying to do best before thinking about how you could be more well rounded. But Zen Archers as we all know have a very easy time of being great at what they're good at, so you should feel comfortable backing off a bit on the optimization for the sake of diversifying your talent base a little bit.
Grand Lodge

Marid Style can add wisdom to damage.

Ok, so go with Oni Tiefling. Tieflings are also nice for the prehensile tail to hold things.

Kinevon: Gravity Bow would not boost the damage of Ki Arrow, though Enlarge Person would (along with nerfing your attack bonus by 1 and AC by 2) since it would give you the unarmed damage of a large creature.

I don't think Ki Arrow is ever worth it. Even if you never can get the UMD modifier to use a wand of Gravity Bow, the extra attack ki use is still better than Ki Arrow anyway.

(Assuming you took Dangerously Curious, dumped starting cha all the way down to 5, and eventually got circlet of persuasion, you would have a UMD mod of ranks +4. So even at 12th level, only a +16.... I guess Skill Focus would make a big difference for the viability of using wands)

If Cha is "important", could always go with Int 10 and put a point back into cha in the sample stat arrays I provided. Hard to justify more than that, though, cha really is the only stat monk has no real use for. But I have not played PFS, so I really son't know how important cha is. I'd hope not too much since that would give an unfair bias to some classes and hurt others...

Fixed the typo in point buy. Marid style isn't much of an option here as my unarmed attack is much worse than my ranged. Plus I can eventually make ranged attacks without AoO and even later get AoO with them, so the goal is to not use unarmed attacks unless absolutely necessary.

I might choose to take a hit to my Int instead, although it's more necessary. As stated, that comes with a +2 dex instead of +2 str which is nice. Then my build would be:

12 Str (2) 16 Dex (5) 12 Con (2) 10 Int (2) 18 Wis (10) 9 Cha (-1).

I was probably going to multiclass into 2 levels of sniper rogue, giving me evasion and halving range penalties, so that makes diplomacy a class skill. Not too sure about this though.

refresh me on Monk rules a bit... Wis gives to hit bonus and AC bonus... anything else? (besides the Will bonus of course)

And, not sure what all the tiefling alternate varieties are, but a point buy I'd suggest might be:

STR 14 (2, +2 racial)
DEX 13 (3), +1 at 4
CON 14 (5)
INT 10 (0)
WIS 18 (10, +2 racial), +1 at 8 and 12
CHA 8 (0, -2 racial)

you should have decent saves as a monk so the extra reflex can wait, and you're not a buffer/battlefield controller so you don't need the extra point of initiative as much. You'll like the carrying capacity and extra damage from strength, and the Fort saves, hit points, and extra rounds before death and drowning from CON. I'm kind of tempted to fiddle with it a little bit to get 12 INT, but if you dip 2 levels of rogue you should have pretty good skills, and UMD and Diplomacy as class skills as well.

Alternate:

STR 14 (5)
DEX 14 (2, +2 racial)
CON 12 (2)
INT 12 (2)
WIS 17 (7, +2 racial), +1 at 4, 8 and 12
CHA 10 (2, -2 racial)

or +2 racial to STR for 16 STR and 12 DEX... in PFS you can spend 2 prestige points to get a single item worth 750gp or less, and a masterwork composite longbow of +3 Str is 700gp, great first expenditure of prestige points.

If you have boots of speed for haste, then the extra attack doesn't stack with the ki extra flurry. In this case, the unarmed damage is better. I'm not sure if the unarmed damage will stack with gravity bow, but if so, nice combo, if not, not an issue.
Grizzly the Archer wrote:
If you have boots of speed for haste, then the extra attack doesn't stack with the ki extra flurry. In this case, the unarmed damage is better. I'm not sure if the unarmed damage will stack with gravity bow, but if so, nice combo, if not, not an issue.

This is completely, 100% wrong by RAW. Bonus attack from haste and ki use absolutely stacks. Now, if PFS specifically has a houserule to nerf monks, I wouldn't be shocked if they did, but please indicate if that is why you are saying this.

And Gravity Bow would not "stack" with Ki Arrow; Enlarge Person would. What matters for Ki Arrow is your unarmed damage, which Ki Arrow does not change.
jmclaus wrote:

Fixed the typo in point buy. Marid style isn't much of an option here as my unarmed attack is much worse than my ranged. Plus I can eventually make ranged attacks without AoO and even later get AoO with them, so the goal is to not use unarmed attacks unless absolutely necessary.

I might choose to take a hit to my Int instead, although it's more necessary. As stated, that comes with a +2 dex instead of +2 str which is nice. Then my build would be:

12 Str (2) 16 Dex (5) 12 Con (2) 10 Int (2) 18 Wis (10) 9 Cha (-1).

I was probably going to multiclass into 2 levels of sniper rogue, giving me evasion and halving range penalties, so that makes diplomacy a class skill. Not too sure about this though.

What race are you using here? +2 Dex/Wis, -2 Int? The Oni is better. Dex is more useful than Str at level 1, but in the long run, str is slightly more important, I think.

I would not dip into Rogue. There are already flight arrows (2 gp for 20, from APG) for shooting further you can buy, and you can spend ki to increase your range, too. Plus I'm skeptical combat often even occurs more than 100 ft away. And if it does...you're a heavily specialized archer, chances are even w/ incement penalties, you have the edge.

Get Diplomacy as a class skill via a trait if you want it. If you only have a -2 cha mod, that's not crippling if you plan to have max ranks and class skill bonus and +1 trait bonus. Evasion is nice, but hardly essential. Now, if you want to multiclass out, that's fine, I would wait until after 6th level when you gain Improved Precise Shot, and suggest coming back to Zen Archer for levels 7-8 at some point to pick up another attack. But beyond that, multiclassing a bit is fine, the class kinda gets a lot less exciting from levels 9-16.

Spoiler:
I was originally going to say "diplomacy is a monk skill," but discovered it is not. It was in D&D 3.5, so looks like yet another spot where paizo nerfed monk for no apparent reason. Ah well, class skills are fairly meaningless and easy to obtain in PF.

For a style, I would suggest Crane Style and Crane Wing -- you can fight defensively with ranged attacks. If you don't feel like investing a lot of feats into a style and just want some base style feat, get Monkey Style. Has very tiny pre-reqs and lets you stand from prone really easily. You can't fire a bow prone, and standing up as a move means not flurrying, so having "prone protection" is quite nice.

Yeah, I'm not going to multiclass into rogue. Originally it was for evasion and I chose an archetype with a better level 1 ability than trapfinding, but I'll just buy a ring of evasion. Although the class doesn't get much from levels 9 - 16, I still need though levels for the purpose of my ki pool and daily perfect strikes. Also monkey style can't be taken till level 5.

Was going to take Crane Style and Wing (possible riposte) if I had free feat.

I'm still not seeing the great benefit in having nice Cha skills. One of my friends is planning a sorcerer and we'll be playing most of our PFS games together. He won't necessarily make every Cha skill check, but it doesn't seem to be worth investing my stuff just so I have a slim possibility of rolling high after he rolls low.

Why do you think Str is better at high levels? The only thing it will really affect is the strength rating on my bow which is relatively little damage towards the end. Carrying capacity isn't a problem as I don't need to carry armor and I was probably going to invest in a horse anyways for the occasional outdoor combat.
StreamOfTheSky wrote:
Grizzly the Archer wrote:
If you have boots of speed for haste, then the extra attack doesn't stack with the ki extra flurry. In this case, the unarmed damage is better. I'm not sure if the unarmed damage will stack with gravity bow, but if so, nice combo, if not, not an issue.

This is completely, 100% wrong by RAW. Bonus attack from haste and ki use absolutely stacks. Now, if PFS specifically has a houserule to nerf monks, I wouldn't be shocked if they did, but please indicate if that is why you are saying this.

And Gravity Bow would not "stack" with Ki Arrow; Enlarge Person would. What matters for Ki Arrow is your unarmed damage, which Ki Arrow does not change.

Not a house rule. I thought that the two couldn't stack do to similarity in power. Since they stack, the extra attack is better off, but wasting a round to cast gravity bow, for a majority of archers, is a waste of potential damage.

I say str is more important later on solely because of damage. You already have good base reflex, and shouldn't face too many attacks as an archer, so once you get wis to attacks, dex is mostly useful for initiative and some skills.

I'm not saying it's a lot more important. Just slightly higher priority, in my opinion. You should be pumping wis almost as hard as a wis-based spellcaster would, in any case. 2nd and 3rd most important stat is kind of trivial compared to the importance of Wis.

You're fine to stay in all 12 levels, but 8 perfect strikes per day is plenty, IMO. And levels 9-12 is only an extra 2 ki points. I suppose the major draw of staying in to 12 is for the Qingong Monk swap options, though.
jmclaus wrote:


I'm still not seeing the great benefit in having nice Cha skills. One of my friends is planning a sorcerer and we'll be playing most of our PFS games together. He won't necessarily make every Cha skill check, but it doesn't seem to be worth investing my stuff just so I have a slim possibility of rolling high after he rolls low.

Well, that makes a HUGE difference. The general rule of PFS, that you never know who'll show up at the table, goes right out the window. Diplomacy is very important for faction missions especially, but if you know you'll be playing with this guy and he's going to max Diplomacy and be willing to help you, then no, you don't need CHA or Diplomacy at all.

It's just so rare to be able to play with the same person almost every time you sit down that I didn't really consider that while giving advice.

Just my 2 cp here, but...

Don't even worry about that amulet of natural armor. By the time it's a fiscally responsible purchase, you can just use the Qingong swap to get Barkskin, which will last for a minimum of 40 minutes, so you'll probably only use it twice or so per day.

Dipping just one level of Inquisitor can really help, as you can just take the Conversion Inquisition, thus using WIS for the majority of your CHA-based skill checks (unfortunately, NOT UMD, but all of the really useful others).

Honestly, the Dwarf that Stream posted earlier is incredibly solid. Especially if you take the Steel Soul feat and the Glory of Old race trait. Saves will never be a problem for that character.
Shadow Lodge

with the right trait - Wisdom of the flesh -... wis can sub for a Strength / Dex / or Con Skill

also if you dipped 1 level into cleric ... take the sepratist archtype with Irori as your deity

you take the Conversion inquisition as your deitys Primary domain (Wis to Bluff / Dip / Intimidate instead of Cha) and then travel as your sepratist domain for an extra 10 ft base move ... use of Cure wands ... a channel (only 1d6 but whatever) and IMHO a better option than inquisitor

galahad2112 wrote:

Just my 2 cp here, but...

Don't even worry about that amulet of natural armor. By the time it's a fiscally responsible purchase, you can just use the Qingong swap to get Barkskin, which will last for a minimum of 40 minutes, so you'll probably only use it twice or so per day.

this gets really ticky tacky ... you then get into the issue of Qingong working with Zen archer ...

the issue comes in with "altering an archtype" and unfortunatly giving options is a way of altering ... dont get me wrong I hate it ... but I dont think its legal

I thought by now it was established as legal to combine Qinggong w/ any other monk archetype? I know there's still going to be some vocal people who don't like it and there always will be, but I thought the matter had been settled.
Shadow Lodge

if there's been clarification .... Ive not seen it (but would be glad to see it)
Shadow Lodge

Where does one find these Alt Racial types for Tiefling and such. I am not finding it in Advanced Race Guide.

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/races/other-races/featured-races/arg-tiefling

Other Tiefling Options
Source: Pathfinder 25: The Bastards of Erebus

Seems to be from there. If it needs a feat that's pretty bs, though. Aasimar has no stat penalty at all and doesn't need a feat.
Shadow Lodge

its the same argument about combining a crossblood and Tattooed sorcerer

all Crossblooded does it give options ... Tattooed replaces 2 bloodline powers and 1 feat .... things that were already altered by crossblooded

and unfortunatly adding Options ... is by definition altering the abilities

again .. I HATE it ... it SHOULD work ... but by RAW at a PFS Table Id have to hand someone a pregen

StreamOfTheSky wrote:

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/races/other-races/featured-races/arg-tiefling

Other Tiefling Options
Source: Pathfinder 25: The Bastards of Erebus

Seems to be from there. If it needs a feat that's pretty bs, though. Aasimar has no stat penalty at all and doesn't need a feat.

check the book Blood of the fiends .... they included the Variant heritages in that book and removed the need for Fiendish heritage

Shadow Lodge

Is it PFS legal?
Shadow Lodge
Additional resources wrote:

Pathfinder Player Companion: Blood of Fiends

*Note: Tieflings may only be half-human. Other races, including but not limited to dwarf, elf, gnome, halfling, half-orc, tengu, and any other race, are not legal in PFS.

Bloodlines: daemon bloodline is not legal for Pathfinder Society; Feats: all feats on pages 24–25 are legal; Heritages: all heritages, and associated traits, on pages 18–23 are legal; Magic: bard masterpieces are legal; Other: variant tiefling abilities are not legal for Pathfinder Society; oracle curses on page 26 are legal; Inquisitons on pages 26–27 are legal; Subdomains: all subdomains on page 15 are legal; Traits: all traits on pages 30–31 are legal

so yes it is

the variant Tiefling abilities are the random roll stuff so not legal (tho Ive not seen anything mention them)

I don't see what it matters if they are "options." If you are a Qinggong Monk, you could not take a single ki power and still be a Qingong Monk. You don't alter a class feature until you actually choose to swap it.

But PFS is a crap-shoot, I agree. Has this been settled officially? I thought it was, but can't find anything now.

It's amazing how one overly broad word in the archetype description can shut off common sense so easily. Pfft..."altered"....
Shadow Lodge
StreamOfTheSky wrote:

I don't see what it matters if they are "options." If you are a Qinggong Monk, you could not take a single ki power and still be a Qingong Monk. You don't alter a class feature until you actually choose to swap it.

But PFS is a crap-shoot, I agree. Has this been settled officially? I thought it was, but can't find anything now.

It's amazing how one overly broad word in the archetype description can shut off common sense so easily. Pfft..."altered"....

yup ... I hate it ... utterly hate it ... Im going through a big thread on it ATM as well as watchign this one to see if Ive missed something ... thus far all Ive seen is "no response required" which IMHO is the weakst response ever (on a 33 FAQ request thread even)... if this was a home game Id say go for it ... PFS .. YMMV and be prepared to be hit with a pregen or have an alternate version of the character (which SHOULD be easy enough to have for a Qinggong) without the swapped abilities

Shadow Lodge

Thank you very much. I just picked it up. Looks like I will be doing a rebuild before I play my 2nd adventure.
Shadow Lodge

So your saying that this is legal except for the Alternate Spell like Ability??

Rakshasa-Spawn
(Beastbrood)
Beastbrood regard themselves as
deserving of appreciation and
opulence. Through deceit and
sheer willpower, they often achieve
privileged stations in society.
Rakshasa-Spawn
Ancestry Rakshasa
Typical Alignment LE
Ability Modifiers +2 Dex, +2 Cha, –2 Wis
Alternate Skill Modifiers Disguise,
Sense Motive
Alternate Spell-Like Ability Beastbrood
gain detect thoughts as a spell-like ability.
Shadow Lodge

nope thats 100% legal ... the part I was talking about Not being legal is the chart on page 30 - the Random tiefling features
Shadow Lodge

Does this replace spell like abilities from original Tieflings? Also the Skills are replaced as well? Does not say if its 1/day, or at will. I would guess its once a day. Or are these in addition to them? Also it lists, the following.
Traits
The following are race traits for beastbrood.
Bent Body: While nothing is actually reversed, your
bones and limbs are slightly out of alignment. You gain
a +2 trait bonus to CMD when resisting grapple attempts.
Tough Skin: You retain a small amount of your ancestors’
unyielding skin. You gain a +1 trait bonus to AC when
opponents attempt to confirm critical hits with either
bludgeoning or slashing weapons.

I do not see anything about replacing anything with them. SO am I to take it that you get these in addition to a normal Tiefling abilities. As they do not appear to be alternate ones.
Shadow Lodge

those are Race traits (remember you get 2 traits for PFS Characters) but they cannot both be from the same catagory ... the 2 you mentioned are "Race" catagory
Shadow Lodge

Good enough. I do not want either of them. But I do not know about the spell like abilities and skills part. If they are replacing or adding.
Shadow Lodge

Oh since I am asking here, Would Dirty Fighting(+1 Trait Bonus damage when Flanking) stack with either River Rat(+1 damage with daggers) or Shadow Stabber(Blind, Oblivious, Blundering around opponent get +2 trait bonus melee against them?
Shadow Lodge
Blackdragondisciple wrote:
Good enough. I do not want either of them. But I do not know about the spell like abilities and skills part. If they are replacing or adding.

this is why you should get ahold of the book ... it explains everything on how they work

Shadow Lodge

I have the PDF. Both for the Core book, and many others, and the Pathfinder Player Companion: Blood of Fiends. Just because it says one thing in a book, does not mean PFS works that way.

It's amazing sometimes watching a thread evolve...

First one guy asks, can I add Wisdom to damage? By the end of the page, where do I find all the alternate tiefling heritages and are they PFS legal?
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