All,
I have been kicking around lots of character ideas lately, and I have this one concept that I am not sure how best to represent.
1) I picture the guy as the main party Tank, though I want a blend of offense and defense, so maybe Tank should be 66% and offense 33%. Tough, but dont ignore him.
2) He uses Weapon and Shield. I prefer the weapon to be something standard like an axe or a sword. I dont envision this guy as *too* amazing to the point of min-maxing with dual shields or weird close weapons. Though I wouldnt mind throwing a feat or two at advanced punching and wrestling, because he should be able to be good in an unarmed fight. Not the best, but he should be decent.
3) I picture his as a second string Face. He should be good in alignment, but self centered. A likeable jerk who means well but has other people facepalming. I *do* want him to have legitimate ability at impressing people sometimes, or fast talking, or maybe saying the right thing or befriending someone or turning up some useful info. Not enough to challenge the soverignty of a full face, but maybe at 33% to 45% "face power" so to speak. :)
4) I picture hin as Full BaB, or close. Spells are too much for this guy. He isnt dumb (int and wis are normal or could be as high as 12) but thematically, not a spellcaster.
5) He shouldnt have a mount really, or not a dedicated one, and I dont really see him with an animal companion. If he had an animal around, I would want to run the joke that he wants it to get lost but the dog sticks around anyway and wont leave. And the guy talks trash about the dog and how the dog sucks, but secretly feeds the dog scraps. But really, I would prefer no dog. I can do the "gripes about animals but secretly is nice and feeds them" with no animal companion.
6) I kinda want to eschew heavy armor, or at the very least he always leaves his helmet off or leaves his face exposed because he wants to have a reputation. Imagine the villain from The Incredibles but as a hero, not a villain, maybe mixed with a little Kurt Russell from Big Trouble in Little China, except this guy isnt incompetent like Jack. He just wants people to see his face and wants people to like him. But at the end of the day he is a good guy.
Now with all this in mind, what would he be? I am not looking for a complex build, just a class or feat or trait or suggestion to build him as I envision. Is he a fighter? A cavalier with no mount? Something else?
Thanks for any help!
Edit: fixed some typos/errors. "It's all in the reflexes."
Paladin could work, if you smooth out the rough edges just a bit.
If not, a deecent Charisma Fighter/Ranger, with a couple traits that add the charisma based skills you are fond of, could be the ticket.
I definitely do not want a Paladin. This guy would fail 9 Paladin challenges before lunch, but still would manage to do the right thing by mid-afternoon. Probably.
Also, its hard to picture this guy as someone who worships a deity. Like I could see this guy thinking the gods are cool, kinda like buddies you have cool stories about, but prayer would be totally outside his real interaction. He would do the stuff you are supposed to do (pray at the right time) but to him, the gods are like guys on a sports team, or celebrities. He might truly want to emulate somebody like a helpful dumb jock god, if there is one, and he would admire a lying rogue/sneaking thief god, at least right up until it did something evil. But 5 minutes later he might be glossing that gods bad aspect aside because you know ... "Gods ... What can you do? Tenacious and cheeky, arent they?"
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I would suggest Tactician, though giving up that first level bonus feat and weapon training until level 9 is a bit eh.
You get 4 skills plus your intelligence (diplomacy becomes a Class skill), lose heavy armor and tower shields. Instead you get the Cavalier Tactician Ability, an initiative boost and a few other neat tricks.
Suggested PFS Legal Build (20-point buy, 2 traits)
Human
STR 16, DEX 16, CON 12, 12 INT, 9 WIS, 12 CHA
FEATS: Shield Focus, Weapon Focus
TRAITS: Defender of the Society (+1 AC when wearing Med Armor), Carefully Hidden (+1 Will)
So you pick up scale mail, a quickdraw light shield, and some 1 handed weapon.
You've now got 5 Armor+1 Shield+1 Shield Focus+1 Trait+3 DEX+10 Base=21 AC, 13 Touch, 18 FF
Your saves are a bit eh, FORT 3, REF 3, WILL 0, but you can take Iron Will at level 3 if you're really worried
You've got 6 skills to play with with a +1 to all CHA skills, take the +1 in Will at 4 so you're Will saves get a boost and you're starting to have a nice character that will be tanky
I vote ranger, and you can drop DEx because rangers get TWF feats without prerequisites.
That allows you to focus on str and some con and CHA, and you'll have skill points to spend on what you want. The right traits can add the class skills you don't start with.
Of course, two levels of fighter never hurt any melee character.
Look at Rondolero Duelist.Thats the best Sword and Board archetype IMO.You get the ability to Shield Bash with a Buckler at 3rd level and thats hard to beat. You can freely choose between two handing and two weapon fighting with Shield Bashes.
I like both Ranger & Tactician. However, spells are out, and traps or tricks dont suit this guy either. Hmm. I will keep thinking about it.
I do appreciate all replies tho! Gracias!
Well I don't know how well it would fit thematically with your campaign, but one of my players in the Skull and Shackles AP I'm running right now plays a Corsair, and he basically does exactly what you are asking. The Cleave feat progression he gets from the class makes him a beast in combat, but the fact that he can wear heavy armor on a ship and not have to worry about drowning when he falls overboard means he takes most of the heavy hits.
You could just run a fighter with the Shielded Fighter ACF. They get some nice abilities for a tank, but also gain some decent offense using shield bashes and whatnot.
Ranger is another good one with the Sword and Board fighting style, or two weapon fighting using sword and shield spikes.
Lore Warden with 2 or 3 level dip into Maneuver Master. more feats than a standard fighter, free combat maneuver each round (since flurry of maneuvers works with armor on), better saves, more skills, evasion (since your armor will be light)- you do lose 1 BAB and 2 or 3 hp, but its a really solid build. ignore wisdom and put 13 in Cha- take a trait to make diplomacy a class skill and gain +1 to it (i believe there's a human race trait called World Traveler that will do it), if you really want to give him something special/memorable pick a bloodline and take the eldritch heritage feat for it too: arcane would be memorable for the fighter's familiar; boreal or stormborn let you buff your own weapon; deep earth gives you a ranged combat maeuver (and if you take the upgrade at 11th, tremorsense) as does verdant- both will have a lower bonus than usual, but will benefit from your feats/class abilities; the debuff from fey doesn't allow a save (and is amusing) and neither do infernal or undead; orc gives you a little buff you can use if you don't want to attack for a round (hey, it could happen), and the 11th level upgrade is fairly sick; rakshasa would be handy for a face (maybe too handy if you're worried about outshining #1 face). you'll miss those two feats because sword and board is super feat intensive, but a human LW 4/MM 2 has 10 feats at 6th level! (if you take Focused Study human variant in preparation for Eldritch Heritage, at 8th level you'll have 13 feats, though two of them will be skill focus- and none of that's even including imp unarmed strike or stunning fist).
edit: also the class bonuses to CMB will help you really benefit from shield slam- combine that feat with a free trip or disarm from FoM and your tank will have quite a bit of control over the flow of combat.
Human Fighter Lore Warden or Shielded Fighter or Ranger.
Use your Fighter bonus Feat to make defender.
Use level feat to work on being a face.
Sugested feats
Antagonize
Enforcer
Additional Traits
Cosmopolitan
Combat Reflexes*
Combat Expertise*
Dodge
Endurance
Toughness
Cool thanks for the additional ideas and responses!
I will have to look closer at everything later this weekend.
What about an Urban Ranger who is also a Skirmisher, and who takes his allies as his boon companion? Tho I have to say its pretty horrible having to use a move action to half-buff allies against 1 target. Super weak.
I usually prefer single class stuff or limited dipping, and the idea of doing "weird" stuff like weapon/shield ranger appeals to me. Hmm.
Seems like going pure ranger, I wouldnt get enough feats to also do the Face thing.
Bleh/hmm.
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Take a look at the following thread im going to link. It has a lot of the builds if not all of the builds ive linked on these forums and u might find what u want from them. A few others have posted on it as well so u might get some thing from those as well. I hope it helps in some way but those are my takes on the way i approach a lot of builds.
http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2phof?Builds-for-high-levels
Ranger with a few traits like "Honeyed Tognue" and "Suspicious" could easily do it. Even more so it's human with the "Focused Study" alternate racial trait (use the free Skill Focus on social skills).
Really, a couple traits and maybe a feat is all you need. You can easily afford it and spend the rest of your resources increasing your overall badassery.
I can totally live without the fisticuffs/wrestling thing if I have to. If I went mostly fighter, I could tho.
My big problem is that when *I* think "fighter" in terms of generic fantasy and then apply that to Pathfinder/DnD, I think Medium Armor, Full BaB, good Fort and Reflex saves, and a fair assortment of skills and feats.
But what I *dont* think of is spells, animals, tracking, mounts, favored enemies, and a whole host of other stuff.
But there isnt really a way to get what I envision without picking up weird class abilities I dont want.
If I could just be a Fighter, with Good Reflex also, and 6 skills per level, I would be set. I figure an eventual +6 delta in reflex saves and a delta of 4 skill points a level has got to cost something. Say, heavy armor & weapon training? I dunno. But I do know that its hard to build what I want without a lot of baggage or weird carry-over class abilities that I dont necessarily want.
Thanks folks. I appreciate the responses and I will keep looking.
Not yet but I saw it. I plan to look in a moment.
I can totally live without the fisticuffs/wrestling thing if I have to. If I went mostly fighter, I could tho.
My big problem is that when *I* think "fighter" in terms of generic fantasy and then apply that to Pathfinder/DnD, I think Medium Armor, Full BaB, good Fort and Reflex saves, and a fair assortment of skills and feats.
But what I *dont* think of is spells, animals, tracking, mounts, favored enemies, and a whole host of other stuff.
But there isnt really a way to get what I envision without picking up weird class abilities I dont want.
If I could just be a Fighter, with Good Reflex also, and 6 skills per level, I would be set. I figure an eventual +6 delta in reflex saves and a delta of 4 skill points a level has got to cost something. Say, heavy armor & weapon training? I dunno. But I do know that its hard to build what I want without a lot of baggage or weird carry-over class abilities that I dont necessarily want.
How about a Barbarian? It can easily boost its skills points to 6 per level and doesn't need to be Wilderness-related unless you want. The Urban Barbarian archetype is actually pretty good, and can even be mixed with Invulnerable Rager.
And what about a Pistolero/Mysterious Stranger Gunslinger? It's Dex and Cha based, has 4 skill points per level and great class skills. Grab Weapon Finesse and some agile weapons and you'll be damn good at melee too.
Last but not least, here is the Lore Warden archetype for Fighters. It actually works, unlike Tactician, which is very underwhelming...
I like Lore Warden, from what I recall, but I think it doesnt get Medium Armor. Nothng 3 levels of Ranger couldnt fix ( stopping before spells).
As for the Barbarian, I hate the Rage Mechanic, conceptually, for this guy in any form, even if you re-skin it.
I do appreciate the reply tho and I will research Lore Warden more later.
Thanks!
Ranger definitely ranger. If you hate casting as an idea trade it out for tricks or traps via archetypes sword and board style gets you access to the best feat for a twfing shield user 5 levels earlier than anyone else and you have enough skill points to get your 50% of a real face face ability. Furthermore you already have an incentive to not use heavy armor because you get class bonuses when you aren't.
If you don't like Animal companions you could always trade it out for something or just not use the ability.
Ranger gets my vote as well.
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You did not specify a level range but I have a fighter build that meets your specifications.
Celebrian Elanesse
Female Garuda-Blooded Aasimar (Plumekith) Fighter 15
LG Medium Outsider (human, native)
Init +5; Senses darkvision 60 ft.; Perception +22
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Defense
--------------------
AC 45, touch 19, flat-footed 40 (+15 armor, +8 shield, +4 Dex, +3 natural, +2 deflection, +1 dodge)
hp 164 (15d10+70)
Fort +18, Ref +14, Will +12 (+4 vs. fear); +2 vs. [evil], +4 vs. effects that cause you to lose your grip on weapons
Defensive Abilities bravery +4; Resist acid 5, cold 5, electricity 5
--------------------
Offense
--------------------
Speed 30 ft., flight (20 feet, poor)
Melee Light Shield Bash +25/+20 (1d3+15/x2) and
. . +4 Adamantine Longsword +24/+19/+14 (1d8+24/17-20/x2)
Ranged +1 Adaptive Composite longbow (Str +0) +24/+19/+14 (1d8+9/19-20/x3)
Special Attacks weapon training abilities (heavy blades +5, bows +3, close +4)
Spell-Like Abilities See Invisibility (1/day)
--------------------
Statistics
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Str 21, Dex 18, Con 18, Int 16, Wis 14, Cha 12
Base Atk +15; CMB +20; CMD 39 (43 vs. Disarm, 43 vs. Sunder)
Feats Angel Wings, Angelic Blood, Angelic Flesh (Steel), Dodge, Greater Shield Focus, Improved Critical (Longsword), Improved Shield Bash, Improved Two-weapon Fighting, Power Attack -4/+8, Shield Focus, Shield Master, Shield Slam, Step Up, Two-weapon Fighting, Weapon Focus (Longsword), Weapon Specialization (Longsword)
Traits Dangerously Curious, Defender of the Society
Skills Acrobatics +9, Climb +8, Diplomacy +21, Disable Device +20, Disguise -1, Escape Artist +3, Fly +9, Handle Animal +5, Knowledge (dungeoneering) +7, Knowledge (local) +4, Linguistics +7, Perception +22, Ride +7, Sense Motive +5, Sleight of Hand +4, Spellcraft +4, Stealth +1, Survival +6, Swim +8, Use Magic Device +20
Languages Celestial, Common, Draconic, Dwarven, Elven, Goblin, Minkaian, Sylvan
SQ scion of humanity, truespeaker
Combat Gear Jingasa of the fortunate soldier (1/day), Scroll of Enlarge Person, Enlarge Person, Enlarge , Scroll of Feather Step, Feather Step, Feather Step, Scroll of Gravity Bow, Gravity Bow, Gravity Bow, G, Scroll of Invisibility, Invisibility, Invisibility, Scroll of Lead Blades, Lead Blades, Lead Blades, L, Scroll of See Invisibility, See Invisibility, See , Wayfinder, vanishing (1 @ 0 lbs); Other Gear +5 Full plate, +5 Light steel shield, +1 Adaptive Composite longbow (Str +0), +4 Adamantine Longsword, Amulet of natural armor +2, Belt of physical might (Str & Con +4), Boots of speed (10 rounds/day), Bracers of falcon's aim, Cloak of resistance +5, Eyes of the eagle, Gloves of dueling, Handy haversack (6 @ 0 lbs), Headband of mental superiority +2 (Disable Device), Ioun stone (clear spindle), Ioun stone (deep red sphere), Ioun stone (dusty rose prism), Ioun stone (dusty rose prism, cracked), Living garments, Ring of evasion, Ring of protection +2, Thieves' tools, masterwork, 169 GP
--------------------
Special Abilities
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Angelic Blood +2 saves vs. evil effects, to stabilize while dying, and 1 damage to evil or undead if bleeding.
Angelic Flesh (Steel) +1 natural AC and your natural attacks count as cold iron.
Boots of speed (10 rounds/day) Affected by haste
Bravery +4 (Ex) +4 to Will save vs. Fear
Damage Resistance, Acid (5) You have the specified Damage Resistance against Acid attacks.
Damage Resistance, Cold (5) You have the specified Damage Resistance against Cold attacks.
Damage Resistance, Electricity (5) You have the specified Damage Resistance against Electricity attacks.
Darkvision (60 feet) You can see in the dark (black and white vision only).
Defender of the Society +1 trait bonus to Armor Class when wearing medium or heavy armor.
Flight (20 feet, Poor) You can fly!
Gloves of dueling These supple gloves grant the wearer a +4 bonus to her CMD against disarm attacks, attempts to sunder her wielded weapons, and effects that cause her to lose her grip on her weapons (such as grease). The wearer doesn't drop held weapons when panicked or stunned. If the wearer has the weapon training class feature and is using an appropriate weapon, her weapon training bonus increases by +2.
Construction
Requirements Craft Wondrous Item, greater magic weapon; Cost 7,500 gp
Improved Shield Bash You still get your shield bonus while using Shield Bash.
Ioun stone (clear spindle) Sustains bearer without food or water.
Jingasa of the fortunate soldier (1/day) Activate to negate a critical hit or sneak attack as an immediate action.
Living garments On command, change coloring, fit, and basic design. Repairs 1 hp a round.
Power Attack -4/+8 You can subtract from your attack roll to add to your damage.
Ring of evasion No damage if you succeed on a Reflex save for half damage.
Scion of Humanity Count as a human for any effect related to race. Pass as human without using disguise.
Shield Focus +1 Shield AC
Shield Master No off-hand penalties for shield bashes, add a shield's enhancement bonus to attack rolls.
Shield Slam Shield Bash attack gives a free bull rush on a hit.
Step Up When a foe makes a 5 ft step away from you, you can move 5 ft to follow them.
Truespeaker Learn two languages for each rank you put in Linguistics.
Weapon Training (Blades, Heavy) +5 (Ex) +5 Attack, Damage, CMB, CMD with Heavy Blades
Weapon Training (Bows) +3 (Ex) +3 Attack, Damage, CMB, CMD with Bows
Weapon Training (Close) +4 (Ex) +4 Attack, Damage, CMB, CMD with Close-in weapons
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Looks pretty awesome, actually! He wears the heavy armor, doesnt have the "good" reflex saves, and I kinda wish he had some Bluff in there instead of Diplomacy. And I would almost favor a Cutlass for style, but ... yeah. Pretty intense, actually.
You know, it almost sounds like what you want is a Cad who took medium armor proficiency as one of his first level feats.
Human cad
20 pt buy
str 16, Dex 14, con 14, int 14, wis 8, cha 12
first level feats: Medium armor proficiency, Combat expertise, weapon focus (Weapon of choice)
skills: Acrobatics, Bluff, Intimidate, Sleight of hand, stealth (and maybe perception, if you use your favored class bonus for skills).
2nd level, take improved dirty trick.
Another option is to go the ranger freebooter plus skirmisher, if you want to go more pirate-y.
fighter rogue?
A Lore Warden who takes medium armor proficiency could do it. He does lack the the good reflex save, though.
How about a Ranger archetype that loses spell casting? Like Trapper ranger? I'm sure there are others, but I don't remember their names.
And how open are you and your group to modifying existing classes? Maybe you can convince your GM to let you play a ranger that loses spell casting and the animal companion for... I dunno... Fast Movement, Uncanny Dodge and Poison Immunity?
It's a shame that we don't have a full BAB swashbuckler kind of character. I've some good homebrews using the concept, though.
the skirmisher ranger trades spells for their own list of 'tricks' that they can learn... sounds a lot like what you might be looking for. it can be combined with almost any other archetype to de-emphasize the nature stuff that you don't like.
I dont like dealing with Tricks and Traps. It makes the character seem, well, like a Ranger or an outdoorsman. Not something I want for *this* guy. And if I am going to have to deal with a pesky out-of-character game system, I'd rather run spells. But I dont consider spells in-character at all. (Nor traps, certainly).
I do appreciate all the responses though!
You could always take a couple of levels of master of many styles for saves and crane style feats. After that, I would go with something like urban warrior for dexterity buffs, but you mentioned that you dont like the mechanic. Another option would be lore warden, just use a shield as your main hand weapon and unarmed strike for your off hand.
For diplomacy... I think the best option would be to ignore your charisma score itself and pick up the human alternate trait that grants three skill focuses for your level one feat. If you put skill focus into things like diplomacy, it will actually work out to be a better investment in the long run.
Have you considered two-handing a heavy shield?Actually, my above suggestion actually works well with this. You attack with a heavy shield with both hands to increase your damage, and then release your off hand to take advantage of crane style to ignore one hit a turn.
I really want to do a "normal" shield and a "normal" weapon because part of my concept of this guy is that he isnt weird or fancy. He would view himself as simple. "Grab a shield and an axe and be awesome, because I *am* awesome." That kind of thing. Walking around using a two-handed shield would make him feel silly. He would point and laugh at a guy doing that, even *after* that guy trounced him.
So mechanically, yes I am sure a two-handed shield would be cool, and dual shield builds could be cool, or shield+fist or shield+brassKnuckes or something could be cool, but at his heart, he is a "warriors use a sword and a shield" kinda guy.
did you look at the tricks? they're mostly combat abilities that have virtually nothing to do with ranger-y things (plus one really useful face ability). if you can't get past the name 'ranger' than take another look at my suggestion for a lore warden with a 2 level maneuver master dip... he would wear light armor instead of medium (though a simple feat could change that) but he'd make a great "grab a shield and an axe and be awesome, because I *am* awesome" sort of guy. (one below full BAB but huge number of feats, 4+int skills every level, lot of mileage out of shield slam, free trip or disarm every round, decent reflex- plus evasion; you'd have imp unarmed strike in case you get disarmed or caught unprepared, i can keep going if you want...)
Main hand heavy shield, off hand light sword or axe. It worked well enough for the rank and file in real life.
Yes they do give up shield proficiency. Nevertheless, it's easy enough to get one without an armor check penalty.
sounds like you want a vanilla fighter with charisma then.