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So this came up in a game I was playing today
NPC pirate was hit by Hideous Laughter , I then had a flash of inspiration and pushed him into the water. There was a collective pause in the group and then everyone stared laughing. GM ruled he drowned (rule of cool)
But as an afterthought I'm curious if the rules support it?
IIRC: It is possible in the Rules... Does HL have a clause saying something that could mean if they need to they no longer laugh til they are safe?
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First off, I wholly agree with your GMs ruling on the spot. It is definately the cinematic and coolest consequence.
However, I've played with someone who wanted to combine Hideous Laughter and Aqueous Orb. Largely making a kill combo featuring a lvl 2 and a lvl 3 spell, that is somewhat equal to Suffocation (a lvl 5 spell).
Therefore, as a generel rule, I have to say. While the flavour might suggest it, Hideous Laughter doesn't specifically affect your ability to hold your breath. Eventhough your are under water, you can normally cast spell with verbal components, or even (i think) use bardic performances.
So from a rules perspective, no laughing doesn't prevent you from holding your breath.
Does HL have a clause saying something that could mean if they need to they no longer laugh til they are safe?
nope no clause, fall prone and lose your actions
I've always allowed rule of cool and instant kill combos on mooks. A BBEG gets proper rules or even GM fiat to make the encounter interesting. My players know this, and respect it, and have tons of fun with crowds.
HaraldKlak is correct, while very cool, it does not have any rule support. A person under the effects of Hideous Laughter can still hold their breath (by the rules).
This of course flies in the face of how many people view it and so it is not unreasonable to use HL the way your GM did but, it will lead to a number of game busting combinations.
Of course, there are already a number of completely legal game busting combinations in Pathfinder. (Example: an Arbiter Improved Familiar +wand of shield other) *shrugs*
- Gauss
I agree, rule of cool totally applies here.
But I also don't see this backed by the rules. I'd probably have ruled that the pirate is able to hold is breath, as that's a 'no action', but his rounds until suffocation go down as if he'd take a standard action every round. I guess, he'd sink to the bottom of the sea before the spell expires and it's pretty unlikely that he'd come back up from there but at least it wouldn't be an insta-kill anymore and more an excellent use of circumstances.
Of course that's not backed by the rules as well.
Nullpunkt, there are rules in one of the modules Paizo wrote for how far a person sinks if they fail a swim check. (Not making one qualifies as failure I think.) 10feet for light/medium encumbrance and 20feet for heavy.
The pirate should easily be able to swim back to the surface (assuming an adequate swim check). Even if the duration was 10rounds (1round hitting the water, 9rounds sinking) the pirate would be able to get back after 3 rounds assuming all swim checks succeeded.
Of course, the total time would be 12 rounds underwater so with your statement of standard (or full-round) action to laugh that would mean he would need a con of 12 or would have to start making drowning checks.
- Gauss
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So this came up in a game I was playing today
NPC pirate was hit by Hideous Laughter , I then had a flash of inspiration and pushed him into the water. There was a collective pause in the group and then everyone stared laughing. GM ruled he drowned (rule of cool)
But as an afterthought I'm curious if the rules support it?
I think that if I didn't just rule that he drowned I would have given the pirate another saving throw. If he failed, then swim checks as if he were in a stormy sea (no taking 10, DC 20). If he failed, he would drown.
For those that say that RAW supports holding your breath while suffering "gales of manic laughter." RAW would also allow you to recite the complete works of Shakespeare while holding your breath, a few sentences per round until you suffocated.
Suffocation
A character who has no air to breathe can hold her breath for 2 rounds per point of Constitution. If a character takes a standard or full-round action, the remaining duration that the character can hold her breath is reduced by 1 round. After this period of time, the character must make a DC 10 Constitution check in order to continue holding her breath. The check must be repeated each round, with the DC increasing by +1 for each previous success.
When the character fails one of these Constitution checks, she begins to suffocate. In the first round, she falls unconscious (0 hit points). In the following round, she drops to –1 hit points and is dying. In the third round, she suffocates.
No rules in there about not speaking.
Speak
In general, speaking is a free action that you can perform even when it isn't your turn. Speaking more than a few sentences is generally beyond the limit of a free action.
Some times common sense has to prevail.
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Doesn't matter what the rules say, the GM is the final word! Besides, fun is the Golden Rule in any rpg (IMO)!
brewdus,
This is not the 'fun' forum, it is the 'rules' forum. Thus, we speak RAW (and to a lesser extent, RAI) and try to keep 'fun' to ourselves or as a small afterthought.
If the OP wanted 'is this fun' opinions he would have asked that in a different forum.
While I agree that fun should supersede rules in certain cases some people prefer to know that they are superseding those rules. Thus, knowing what the RAW is before modifying it into 'fun' is what some people use this forum for.
- Gauss
[...] 10feet for light/medium encumbrance and 20feet for heavy.
[...] Even if the duration was 10rounds (1round hitting the water, 9rounds sinking) the pirate would be able to get back after 3 rounds assuming all swim checks succeeded.
With a successful swim check you can only move half your speed as a full-round action. So assuming average speed of 30 ft. and 90 ft. deep water that's six rounds of successful swim checks and a total of 20 rounds of holding your breath (because each round counts double towards the limit). So I don't think he could make it.
Doesn't matter what the rules say, the GM is the final word! Besides, fun is the Golden Rule in any rpg (IMO)!
For some reason I find it even more fun if the rules support cool moves!
Nullpunkt, assuming an average speed of 30' that means they can move 60' in one round as a full-round action. Half of that is 30. 90/30 = 3.
- Gauss
Nullpunkt, assuming an average speed of 30' that means they can move 60' in one round as a full-round action. Half of that is 30. 90/30 = 3.
- Gauss
Well actually the rule is "Success means you may swim at up to half your speed (as a full-round action) or at a quarter of your speed (as a move action)."
Thus with a speed of 30', you can move 15 as a full-round action. It is half their actual speed, not half what the normally can move on a full-round action.
Bah, yeah I missed that. :)
Ok, so 90/15 = 6. 6+9 going down is 15 rounds. Since spending an standard/full action underwater reduces the time you can hold your breath by 1 and a person with a 12 con can hold their breath for 24 rounds he has to make his first check in round 13.
Round 13: DC10 = 60% chance of success
Round 14: DC11 = 55% chance of success
Round 15: DC12 = 50% chance of success
Cumulative chance of survival = 16.5%
Of course, we are assuming the following: 10round duration, 12con, successful swim checks.
Yeah, at that point it is probably a death sentance. But, staying on board would probably have been a death sentance against a level 10 party anyhow.
Im curious what the actual level of this encounter was.
- Gauss
not sure on the exact EL but its as far as I could tell it was appropriate for our level 3 group, we were level 8 but got zapped back in time.
The mook that died had a couple of similar/same mooks that took a few hits to take down as well as others and their Captain.
So level 3 means you would have a 3 round duration of Hideous Laughter. No chance for drowning there (by RAW) unless he fails swim checks while trying to ascend.
Round 1: he gets knocked into the water.
Rounds 2 and 3: sinks 10 (or 20) feet. 1 round applied to holding breath clock (2 with Nullpunkt's house rule).
Rounds 4-5: swims up. 2 rounds applied to holding breath clock.
Total time underwater: 6rounds (8 using Nullpunkt's houserule). He survives (unless he has failed several swim checks).
- Gauss
So level 3 means you would have a 3 round duration of Hideous Laughter. No chance for drowning there (by RAW) unless he fails swim checks while trying to ascend.
Round 1: he gets knocked into the water.
Rounds 2 and 3: sinks 10 (or 20) feet. 1 round applied to holding breath clock (2 with Nullpunkt's house rule).
Rounds 4-5: swims up. 2 rounds applied to holding breath clock.Total time underwater: 6rounds (8 using Nullpunkt's houserule). He survives (unless he has failed several swim checks).
- Gauss
Looks like a decent enough interpretation of the rules
The way we looked at it was that if your laughing uncontrollably then your also breathing uncontrollably to fuel the laughter hence when you hit the water and take a big deep breath to keep laughing you flood your lungs with water and then its all over.
Phasics, many people interpret it the same way. But that way leads to abuse since PCs can use that interpretation to combine a number of effects to produce near-instant kill combos. Use it carefully. :)
- Gauss
You can laugh while holding your breath... Though it is pretty difficult...