... Still, from a flavor and verisimilitude perspective, bardic performances are among the silliest things in the game...
A thousand times YES!!!
Well, I broached the possibility of an archaeologist bard to my group and they responded positively even after I pointed out it would mean no bardic performances.
So... if I go that way, assuming a standard 15 point buy, what would be a good way to start?
I am arguing for a 20 point buy (not just for me, for the whole party, just because the module is supposed to be so lethal).
Well, I broached the possibility of an archaeologist bard to my group and they responded positively even after I pointed out it would mean no bardic performances.
So... if I go that way, assuming a standard 15 point buy, what would be a good way to start?
I am arguing for a 20 point buy (not just for me, for the whole party, just because the module is supposed to be so lethal).
Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the AP written for 4 characters assuming a 15 point buy?
Not that I care what you guys do since my group (of 5 players) always either does the 25 point buy or 4d6 dropping the lowest (the players pick what they want to do).
As an aside, my group just started this AP out and tomorrow is our second session. It's been pretty fun so far. We have a ranger (wields 2 kukris), wizard (me - evocation), summoner (with a red wolf eidolon), cleric (healer), and inquisitor (ranged). The first little bit has been a lot of RP and the story seems pretty interesting, the GM has also informed us that he's changed quite a bit to suit us and make it more personalized, so I'm excited to see where it ends up.
We had a 20 point buy for our carrion crown campaign, and we still got slaughtered. That extra 5 points won't matter. It's all about how you play and your tactics that will determine whether you survive.
Actually, given that most undead have a decent will save, how good is a dirge bard against them?
Not that I haven't been tempted to try one in Carrion Crown due to the way their fluff fits, especially if you make him/her affiliated with the church of Pharasma, but I think a regular bard, detective, archivist or archeologist would be great too. There are enough secret organizations in Ustalav to make the last 2 quite viable.
@ Adamantine dragon: considering that Ustalav is basically Pharasma country faith-wise, dirge bards would likely be a fairly significant part of the bard population there. I wouldn't call it that much of a metagaming, given the region.
I don't think a well informed and well played group of 4 or 5 PC's at 15 point buy should have too significant of problems with book 1.
Don't get me wrong, it is tough. But most of our problems were: 1) GM not thinking it was tough enough and modifying things. 2) Us players being fairly new and not knowing some of what was possible/allowed. 3) Wasting channels/positive energy when not needed then not having when it was needed. 4)Generally poor tactics. (We have some players that do not like to investigate and always want to get straight into the action so we didn't know some of what we should).
Sigh, archaeologist is in Ultimate Combat which is not allowed, so no archaeologist. I'm thinking of detective now.
From musings on APs somewhat long past ...
Whatever you do, find a way to be able to cast shield.
Afterwards, a robust Fortitude and Will saving throw bonus goes a long way to promoting PC survival.
Ugh, there's a detective bard in our Carrion Crown party and he is useless. He can't really buff, he can't fight, and his skill checks are unnecessarily high. Who cares that you can roll a 50+ if all the DCs are 30 or less?
Ok, so this is partially caused by the way he built the character (taking only divination spells such that he has nothing useful to cast in combat, etc.), but I just seen nothing useful about being a Detective.
Why are you so opposed to Dirge Bard? It was practically made for Carrion Crown. You will never regret it.
RE: bards - if you can't provide inspire courage, you'd best be sure that what you DO provide is of equivalent value to the rest of the group.
Well, I think I've more or less settled on a halfling detective bard. Which means no "inspire courage".
Now I'm looking at traits, feats and spells to learn.
The GM allows a campaign trait and one standard trait (from the APG). Right now I'm looking at a +2 to initiative and a +2 to concentration checks.
For a feat I'm torn between starting down the archer feat tree with Point Blank Shot or taking "improved initiative". The archer path is somewhat nerfed by being small and using a shortbow. But it's still a viable option.
I also haven't yet worked out my ability scores. If I go archer path then I'm going to definitely need a decent dex score.
Instead of archery, what about using your whip - especially with the Dirty Trick maneuvers in the APG?
|
Now that you've settled on the bard, let me maybe give you something else to consider. I'm playing in the same CC campaign as Emmit Svenson (Dirge Bard), and I've got a TWF urban ranger with favored enemy-undead. Granted, we also have a cleric with Diplomacy to back the bard, so my character doesn't need the face skills; he can specialize in maximizing damage vs. the most common enemies we've fought so far.
Instead of archery, what about using your whip - especially with the Dirty Trick maneuvers in the APG?
I dunno, it hasn't been that long since I played a trip-based spiked chain fighter with this group, so I dunno about another CMB based build. Plus there's the penalties to CMB and CMD for being small...
UPDATE: I also looked at dirge bard. I finally decided on the detective. I thought at first that you could do both, but in the end both modify one of the same class attributes, so no go.
I wish there was a way to get "disrupt undead" on my bard's cantrip list...
Instead of archery, what about using your whip - especially with the Dirty Trick maneuvers in the APG?I dunno, it hasn't been that long since I played a trip-based spiked chain fighter with this group, so I dunno about another CMB based build. Plus there's the penalties to CMB and CMD for being small...
UPDATE: I also looked at dirge bard. I finally decided on the detective. I thought at first that you could do both, but in the end both modify one of the same class attributes, so no go.
I wish there was a way to get "disrupt undead" on my bard's cantrip list...
I did it with the trait "Two World Magic."
I really don't see the benefits of being a Detective Bard, especially compared to Dirge, but to each his own.
mpl... I am not finding the dirge bard to be compelling at all, frankly.
Here are the reasons I am leaning detective over dirge.
Detective gives me the following:
- trapfinding as a rogue at level 2
- +1/2 level on perception vs +1/2 level on knowledge checks. Perception is probably the single most important skill in the game. It is used for a huge variety of game situations, and it is key to the ability to... find traps. It also gains +1/2 level to diplomacy and sense motive, two skills I believe are important to this adventure path.
- While losing "inspire courage" is a pain, "careful teamwork" is pretty nice as well. +1 to initiative and perception checks to the entire party is nothing to sneeze at.
It is my belief that these changes will allow my detective bard to be as good as, or better than, any rogue at finding traps.
Now, as far as I can tell, dirge doesn't grant any rogue-type abilities. Instead it gives me bonuses to checks against fear (which halflings already get, and a trait can get an additional +2 if I really want it). The main thing I like about the dirge bard is the ability to have mind-affecting spells affect undead. But with the party we are building I just don't see that as being as important to the party as the detective's ability to sneak, find and disable traps and improve diplomacy.
Maybe I'm missing something.
On "Two-world magic" I would have to get my GM's approval since that's not a trait in the APG or the players' companion for CC.
... if I could have my bard be dirge AND detective, that would perhaps be ideal...
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Here are the reasons I am leaning detective over dirge.
Detective gives me the following:
- trapfinding as a rogue at level 2
- +1/2 level on perception vs +1/2 level on knowledge checks. Perception is probably the single most important skill in the game. It is used for a huge variety of game situations, and it is key to the ability to... find traps. It also gains +1/2 level to diplomacy and sense motive, two skills I believe are important to this adventure path.
- While losing "inspire courage" is a pain, "careful teamwork" is pretty nice as well. +1 to initiative and perception checks to the entire party is nothing to sneeze at.It is my belief that these changes will allow my detective bard to be as good as, or better than, any rogue at finding traps.
Please, let me make it clear before I say this that I have no desire to ruin your fun, so if you actually think a Detective Bard is more fun or more fitting to your concept or something, just ignore me on this. I'm only coming at this from a mechanical perspective with some actual experience being in a party with both types of bards, so keep that in mind.
With as few spoilers as possible, my group, through 2 books, has encountered zero things that disable device would have been useful for (I admittedly did miss 3 sessions, but heard nothing about traps in recaps). We actually had a Rogue through half of book two and she was so frustrated with being useless that she remade an archer ranger.
Perception is nice and all, absolutely, and our Detective Bard is great at it. However, he's actually unnecessarily great at it. There's a certain breaking point at which it stops being useful. He has a set of abilities and spells that have him landing 50s on Perception checks at level 7--however, the rest of the party generally makes the low to mid 20s, so we all notice everything anyway.
Also note that the Detective's Diplomacy bonus is only to gathering information, so he's no better at the actually useful aspects of Diplomacy than any other kind of Bard.
He also only gets a bonus to one kind of knowledge skill, while Dirge Bards keep the full Bardic Knowledge. Ultimately, I was the one the party turned to for knowledges and social skills (I had no special advantage on social skills from being Dirge, just that we were equal and I had slightly better Charisma).
At this point, the Detective Bard has stopped using Careful Teamwork. I asked him to last session for the Initiative and he said, "It's so small a bonus, it doesn't even matter, and the trap part is a joke." The only Bardic Performance he's used lately is Inspire Competence. He's a great guy and roleplayer, but mechanically, we generally view the character as more of a burden in combat than anything else, and while out of combat, he looks like a stud hitting 50s on perception, it's just not necessary, so in reality, he's not really better out of a fight than anyone else (except the Fighter, of course).
Now, as far as I can tell, dirge doesn't grant any rogue-type abilities.
And that is fine, because they are totally unnecessary.
Instead it gives me bonuses to checks against fear (which halflings already get, and a trait can get an additional +2 if I really want it).
It's +4 to fear, energy drain, death effects, and necromantic effects. That's like 75% of what you're going to be hit with in an undead heavy campaign (which I assume is no spoiler). It was invaluable, much better than trapfinding and saves vs. illusions and disguises and crap.
The main thing I like about the dirge bard is the ability to have mind-affecting spells affect undead. But with the party we are building I just don't see that as being as important to the party as the detective's ability to sneak, find and disable traps and improve diplomacy.
I don't see how that could be anything less than amazingly useful to every party. In addition to their mind-affecting immunity, Undead are immune to anything with a Fort Save that doesn't specifically target objects, so you're left with, what, maybe Grease for CC? Create Pit, I guess? What about incorporeal undead? You basically can't CC them without a Dirge Bard (since even an Undead bloodline Sorcerer's arcana doesn't work on incorporeals).
Maybe I'm missing something.
Well, you are forgetting the Necromancy spells you get access to, and the amazing fear buffs you get.
Early on, I was contributing very well with Inspire Courage, Disrupt Undead, and Chill Touch (which is a fear effect on undead, so it gets buffed at 5th!). As time went on, I became the party hero with Cacophanous Call, Command Undead, and (later) Confusion--I was the only one really able to CC undead in any meaningful way. Fear was monstrous, since the level 5 feature buffed it.
I was also totally psyched about getting Magic Jar later, but alas, the GM kind of didn't like how awesome my CC was, and instead of talking to me about it, he changed one of the battles to include Attic Whisperers (the bane of Bards everywhere) on a day half the party couldn't make it, and I got massacred. :(
On "Two-world magic" I would have to get my GM's approval since that's not a trait in the APG or the players' companion for CC.
I hope he lets you--I played essentially a non-combatant with 20 Charisma and crap physical stats (I even took Flagbearer at level 1), so Disrupt Undead really carried me through the game until I got level 2 spells and Weird Words. I'm not aware of any other way to get access to it that would be worth pursuing.
Hmm.....
Well, this has become perilously close to the sort of pre-gaming information I was trying to avoid, but I suppose I took that risk by posting here in the first place.
Since my GM has already nixed Ultimate Combat content I'm pretty sure "two-world magic" is not going to fly.
I suppose the only specific thing that detective bards gain that they simply can't do otherwise is disabling magical traps. Finding and disabling normal traps is still something a bard can at least attempt, and there is probably a trait that allows disable device to be a class skill. Maybe not one that my GM will allow though.
Hmm....
Well, this has become perilously close to the sort of pre-gaming information I was trying to avoid, but I suppose I took that risk by posting here in the first place.
Sorry, I didn't mean to spoil anything. I always thought "spoiling" meant revealing plot or specific set piece battles or something, not "the rogue felt useless" or "there's lots of undead in a horror game that talks a lot about undead in the players' guide." Was it the incorporeal mention? Sorry, didn't mean to give you more than you wanted.
I've run two parties through Carrion Crown. One is Fighter, Sorc (slightly customized for investigation), and Rogue; the other is Paladin, Bard, Alchemist.
The rogue's player has been enjoying making lots of social rolls to gain allies and learn about Ravengro, using stealth/disable device to gather information, linguistics to make money through translation work, and using knowledges to do research. The Sorcerer uses knowledges to do research, diplomacy and intimidation to influence people, and perception to look for clues. The Bard uses social skills and performance to help the party's status among the townsfolk and to flirt with female NPCs, disable device on locks, Bardic Knowledge six times a day, and in combat he uses bardic performance (rousing oratory) and archery. The alchemist does a lot of alchemy and some research.
Everyone's having a good time getting full mileage out of their skill points.
mpl, I'm not saying you offered any "spoilers", that's why I said "pre-game information" instead of "spoilers".
I appreciate your advice and suggestions. I'm probably just being too concerned about making decisions that are meta-gamey.
I probably spend way too much time and effort on creating a new character anyway.
Okay, one last time for emphasis, because I feel that it got drowned out amongst the bard discussion.
Whatever Bard (or character) you choose, there are some skills that are extremely helpful in the AP. You can find all of this in the Carrion Crown Player Guide, but let me repeat it:
You will need Diplomacy.
You will need Knowledge skills.
And yes, you will need Perception. (But you always need that.)
... I wish there was a way to get "disrupt undead" on my bard's cantrip list...
You might consider a one level dip of undead bloodline sorcerer. That can give you something similar to the dirge bard for you spells and and the disrupt undead.
Honestly, if nothing else, this thread has made me consider rolling up a Dirge Bard in case my poor Life Oracle kicks the bucket in my current CC game. :3
A well run life oracle should be very hard to kill in this campaign. I would think you are safe unless the GM specifically targets you. Or of course, if you get too cocky and start doing stupid stuff. I have been guilty of that.
Kydeem, starting at level 1, it's sort of hard to dip any level.
I'm not much of a dipper anyway. I tend to view dipping to get a particular class ability as metagame thinking, and I try to avoid any more metagaming than necessary.
Mystically_inclined, thanks for your advice. I think my bard has the skills you mention well covered.
I haven't made a final decision yet (we've got plenty of time, it will be weeks yet before we can get our group to agree on a gaming schedule), but I am pretty strongly on the detective bard path now.
Yes, dirge gives some really nice things that might be perfect for this particular campaign, but detective bard just fits the sort of character I was thinking about playing better. If it ends up being less than optimal, I think we can still get by.
Thanks again to everyone for advice.
Instead of archery, what about using your whip - especially with the Dirty Trick maneuvers in the APG?I dunno, it hasn't been that long since I played a trip-based spiked chain fighter with this group, so I dunno about another CMB based build. Plus there's the penalties to CMB and CMD for being small...
UPDATE: I also looked at dirge bard. I finally decided on the detective. I thought at first that you could do both, but in the end both modify one of the same class attributes, so no go.
I wish there was a way to get "disrupt undead" on my bard's cantrip list...
I am at work but I belive that the Samarians (think that is what they are called) in advanced race guide can take an alt ability that lets them choose a number of spells equal to their int bonus from another casters spell list and add it to their own.
The only materials we are allowed to use are the Core rulebook, the Advanced Players' guide, Ultimate Magic and the Carrion Crown players guide.
Kydeem, starting at level 1, it's sort of hard to dip any level.
I'm not much of a dipper anyway. I tend to view dipping to get a particular class ability as metagame thinking, and I try to avoid any more metagaming than necessary.
I understand what you mean I rarely dip in builds myself unless really necessary (dragon disciple, rage prophet, or eldritch knight). Because I don't want to lose caster levels (or whatever other goody the class provides).
But you get through 1st level pretty fast if you survive. And you start in Ustalev. ANYTHING relating in any way to undead seems startlingly appropriate for that location.
That just seemed like a way to be kinda close to a detective dirge bard.
But you could always buy a wand of disrupt undead which will last you several levels if it has 50 charges. You may also want to consider one of the 2 metamagic feats that allow other spells to affect undead.
A wand of disrupt undead might be just exactly what I need... Thanks for the recommendation.