I was just curious if this combination was even a viable option. I know in the Blood of Angels companion its states, "Though these features are particularly suitable for aasimars, GMs can permit characters of other races with appropriate back stories or world views to gain them as well." So if a GM allowed a kitsune to take the Wolfscarred Face curse, would the use of its Change Shape (Su) counteract the spell failure chance?
The way I'm looking at it is that it would. Since the curse gives you a muzzle (maybe an even more animalistic than the kitsune already has) that causes a 20% spell failure, and the Change Shape (Su) acts like alter self; this would change the mouth of the kitsune to a human mouth, would it not? Thus having a human mouth would negate the spell failure part of the curse? What do you guys think?
Looping for loopholes? How is this any different than the hundreds of Oracles that exist who specifically take the Wolfscarred and Deaf dual curses so they don't have to suffer the penalty? I just thought this was a nifty option and was checking to see if it could work.
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@ ciretose: Not to sound rude, but just because you're not a fan of it, there's no reason to accuse the OP of gaming the system. Besides, do you know the kind of group they play with? Maybe clever combinations like this are fun at their table.
Anyway though, as BBT said, I think the failure chance will likely persist in either, as Kitsune have a specific human form as much as they have their specific regular form. I'd expect it to be a problem in both.
Whether or not actual polymorph magic will alleviate it temporarily though is hard to say. Might depend on your GM. I'm inclined to say it'd still persist though.
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...So?
Like he pointed out, is that worse than a wolfscarred/deaf oracle who suffers no drawback from it?
What about a Barbarian/Oracle with Lame Curse? Fast movement offsets the speed penalty, while Immunity to Fatigue completely negates that drawback of rage.
Finding options that work together and make for an effective character is, in my opinion, a large part of the fun of the game. Just because you don't like it personally doesn't mean everyone plays that same way, nor should they. The OP asked about how the combination works, not whether you approve of how they play the game or not (and that's if they even are planning on playing this).
Again, this isn't meant to sound rude though, so I apologize in advance if it does. Your initial response just sounded a little antagonistic to me.
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First off, it's unimportant why he wants to know.
Second, just as a Kitsune Barbarian can Rage whilst shapechanged, the Oracle's Curse will still effect it, no matter the Curse chosen.
Also, anyone can select the Wolfscarred Face Curse, unless a DM houserules it out.
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Guys Guys Guys :)
It's real simple
This is the text your looking for
"The oracle’s curse cannot be removed or dispelled without the aid of a deity"
Question: does your solution to fixing you curse involve the aid of a deity ?
In this case Shape Change (Su) is clearly not the aid of a deity therefore it does not work.
Simple neat and doesn't even require a GM's ruling
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And you are being a different kind of 'that guy;' the one who is being rude about their own opinion. I personally agree, being munchkin-y or full of cheese isn't cool. However, I'd hardly lable this as cheese.
Seeking to not suffer the penalty of the oracle curse isn't munckin-y?
Really?What reason would you even consider this option other than in an attempt to get around a rule?
And if you are trying to get around a rule...
I think a larger problem is that people don't say "No, you are trying to figure out ways to cheat, which is really sad considering it is a game you play with your friends with no actual prizes. Stop it." and so this type of behavior become acceptable, rather than pointed out for what it is.
Trying to cheat.
And if someone is offended when they are trying to figure out ways to cheat and you say to them "Stop trying to figure out ways to cheat" that means the message got across as intended.
No, the OP isn't a bad person for asking. No it isn't wrongbadfun to play in that style.
But this is the rules forum, not the house rules forum, so if you come here and say "If I lie about what I rolled, but the GM didn't catch me, is that ok." the answer shouldn't be "Well it depends on your table..."
And you are being a different kind of 'that guy;' the one who is being rude about their own opinion. I personally agree, being munchkin-y or full of cheese isn't cool. However, I'd hardly lable this as cheese.Seeking to not suffer the penalty of the oracle curse isn't munckin-y?
Really?What reason would you even consider this option other than in an attempt to get around a rule?
And if you are trying to get around a rule...
I think a larger problem is that people don't say "No, you are trying to figure out ways to cheat, which is really sad considering it is a game you play with your friends with no actual prizes. Stop it." and so this type of behavior become acceptable, rather than pointed out for what it is.
Trying to cheat.
And if someone is offended when they are trying to figure out ways to cheat and you say to them "Stop trying to figure out ways to cheat" that means the message got across as intended.
No, the OP isn't a bad person for asking. No it isn't wrongbadfun to play in that style.
But this is the rules forum, not the house rules forum, so if you come here and say "If I lie about what I rolled, but the GM didn't catch me, is that ok." the answer shouldn't be "Well it depends on your table..."
Exactly, this is the rules forum. He didn't ask for opinions on whether or not this was admirable, but whether or not it is legal. I ask questions that I don't intend to implement just out of curiosity. Does that make me "that guy"?
This is more akin to finding ways to reduce twf penalties than it is sneaking in punpun anyway. I don't see anything cheaty about it.
PS. My group is very fine saying "knock off your cheese cheezer."
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"No, you are trying to figure out ways to cheat, which is really sad considering it is a game you play with your friends with no actual prizes. Stop it."
...Because trying to be more useful in a team game really is pretty terrible, huh?
But this is the rules forum, not the house rules forum, so if you come here and say "If I lie about what I rolled, but the GM didn't catch me, is that ok." the answer shouldn't be "Well it depends on your table..."
Weird analogy aside, yeah, this is the rules forum, not the house rules forum. So when someone asks a question, I'm inclined to say they deserve an objective answer, not a 'I don't like this and you're gaming the system, it absolutely shouldn't work, and you're a bad person for thinking about it.'
It's the fault of the way that the OP is phrasing it... as a way to get the benefits of being Wolf-scarred and avoid the price.
But so what? That can happen in tons of situations.
I mentioned the Barbarian + Lame Oracle Curse combination earlier. No penalty from the curse and no penalty at the end of a rage. Pretty good combination, and is completely within the game rules.
If you (not to get personal, this is a generic you) want to call it munchkin-y, that's fine, but where you draw the line is completely your own opinion, and shouldn't have any bearing on the answer to a rules question. At least in my opinion.
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I mentioned the Barbarian + Lame Oracle Curse combination earlier. No penalty from the curse and no penalty at the end of a rage. Pretty good combination, and is completely within the game rules.
If you (not to get personal, this is a generic you) want to call it munchkin-y, that's fine, but where you draw the line is completely your own opinion, and shouldn't have any bearing on the answer to a rules question. At least in my opinion.
There's totally a penalty for a Lame Barbarian: they're moving at 30ft. instead of 40ft. And, if you belong to any of the 10 archetypes that trade out fast movement, you don't even get that. Still, it's certainly a powerful combination.
And, on this particular topic, polymorph effects don't change the nature of your curse. A deaf Oracle is still deaf, whether she's taking the form of a life elemental, a dire tiger, or a human. You don't drop class features the instant you polymorph (though you may lose some extraordinary and supernatural abilities associated with your race). While a GM may well let you disguise your misshapen muzzle with a Kitsune's alter self, nothing short of divine intervention can actually change its mechanical impact.If you want to discuss rules, then, by all means, enrich this forum with your opinions. If you're simply interested in flaming... well, there are certainly other places on the internet for that.
Wolfscarred Face still has social downsides, and if you're wolfscarred and deaf, you still take all the penalties of being deaf. So, I guess if you're already deaf, you can indeed get a bite attack with no additional mechanical penalty (but some social stigma)... But Kitsune already have a bite attack in their hybrid form. And you can, with that combination, either choose from some special senses and ameliorating the -4 initiative penalty for deafness, or the magic fang spells and a stronger bite. I guess if you really want the replacement spells and the extra revelations, and don't mind the loss of class skills, it's one of the better combinations for that tradeoff.
I'd still say the curses would affect a kitsune in both forms though, and expecially the human form. Even in hybrid form it would probably have weird teeth or something that make it hard to talk.
First: the majority of my oracles have clouded vision because I like it! It is fun, and oddly not as bad as you would think 90% of the time. It is much, much worse 10% of the time. So that is my thought on curses.
Second: I would much much much much much rather play with players who actually read the rules, and looked up facts, asked questions on the boards, and had the kinf of vested interest in their character such research yields than play with the casual, "meh, my friends explained the rules once" or worse yet, "I memorized all the rules from 3.0 back in the day, so of course I know the rules now" people. Go right on reading and understanding the rules! I dont care how much you optimize, so long as you understand the rules.
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"No, you are trying to figure out ways to cheat, which is really sad considering it is a game you play with your friends with no actual prizes. Stop it."...Because trying to be more useful in a team game really is pretty terrible, huh?
But this is the rules forum, not the house rules forum, so if you come here and say "If I lie about what I rolled, but the GM didn't catch me, is that ok." the answer shouldn't be "Well it depends on your table..."Weird analogy aside, yeah, this is the rules forum, not the house rules forum. So when someone asks a question, I'm inclined to say they deserve an objective answer, not a 'I don't like this and you're gaming the system, it absolutely shouldn't work, and you're a bad person for thinking about it.'
It's the fault of the way that the OP is phrasing it... as a way to get the benefits of being Wolf-scarred and avoid the price.But so what? That can happen in tons of situations.
I mentioned the Barbarian + Lame Oracle Curse combination earlier. No penalty from the curse and no penalty at the end of a rage. Pretty good combination, and is completely within the game rules.
If you (not to get personal, this is a generic you) want to call it munchkin-y, that's fine, but where you draw the line is completely your own opinion, and shouldn't have any bearing on the answer to a rules question. At least in my opinion.
The question being asked is functionally "Will this let me get around this rule."
Full stop.
Cheating to help your team is still cheating. If you want to houserule everyone in your game gets unlimited hit points, feel free. This is the rules forum, not Nam...err...the house rules forum.
You can believe whatever you like about objective answers...
RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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I know of people in real life who take measures to work around handicaps.
I know of characters in the game who try to ameliorate the negative effects of class features, like oracle curses. "When I get into battle, I speak and understand only Ignan. Here are some ioun stones that allow you to speak and understand Ignan, too." "My class doesn't teach me to use swords, so I decided to play a Tengu." "I'm haunted: when I drop things, they go skittering away, so I tie my weapons to my wrists."
I don't think the OP is trying to cheat, or "get around" a rule.
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I know of people in real life who take measures to work around handicaps.
I know of characters in the game who try to ameliorate the negative effects of class features, like oracle curses. "When I get into battle, I speak and understand only Ignan. Here are some ioun stones that allow you to speak and understand Ignan, too." "My class doesn't teach me to use swords, so I decided to play a Tengu." "I'm haunted: when I drop things, they go skittering away, so I tie my weapons to my wrists."
I don't think the OP is trying to cheat, or "get around" a rule.
I think all your examples are ways to "get around" rules.
I don't think it's cheating.
I think it's a good thing.
I think objecting to it is the same as objecting to taking the two-weapon fighting feat because that's getting around the rule that you take a -4/-8 penalty while fighting with two weapons.
The rules are there to be used. Go forth and use them.
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And in all of your examples there is a cost and a penalty that comes with that choice that balances the bonus. Quite literally with the ioun stones, mechanically and literally with the weapon cords. And the Tengu has written into the class sword use as a class feature.
Not close to the same thing.
And if there were a "ignore the penalty of the curse" feat, then the TWF feat would be relevant to the discussion.
This, on the other hand, is some guy going "Hey, I wonder if I can talk my GM into not making me have to follow this rule..."
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Seems it needs mentioning again
"The oracle’s curse cannot be removed or dispelled without the aid of a deity"
Consider that your powers granted to you come at the cost of the curse. By bypassing the curse you are effectively thumbing your nose at the greater powers that give you your oracle abilities. Did you ever stop to consider that might piss them off so much that they stop granting you your abilities ?
It's not even a matter of cheating vs legitimate rule manipulation.
These two examples above are acutally quite good for showing the difference of what should work and what shouldn't
1) "When I get into battle, I speak and understand only Ignan. Here are some ioun stones that allow you to speak and understand Ignan, too."
2) "I'm haunted: when I drop things, they go skittering away, so I tie my weapons to my wrists."
The first is not directly effecting how your curse operates it simply allows the group as a whole to function with your curse , anyone outside the group still can't understand you if they don't speak Ignan. The curse is not bypassed its still very much in effect.
However the second is directly changing how the curse operates instead of dropped items are thrown away the dropped item is effectively dropped at your feet within arms reach. In this case the Curse beats the solution unless a deity tied your weapons to your wrists. GM explanation: the malevolent spirits undo the knots you tied to keep your items from being flung away.
The first is okay because your curse operates unchanged the second does not because its trying to change the curses' effect.
And in all of your examples there is a cost and a penalty that comes with that choice that balances the bonus.
Not that it matters to my point, but as a side note, there is a cost. Wolfscarred Curse gives a bonus to your bite attack and an arcane spell failure. Using change shape would negate both (in his argument).
This, on the other hand, is some guy going "Hey, I wonder if I can talk my GM into not making me have to follow this rule..."
I think its a guy trying to sell actually applying the alter self rules and the accompanying polymorph effects.
Although, double-checking the rules, they wouldn't give him what he wants, because nothing in the wolf-scarred curse rules states that the speech impediment is dependent on the muzzle to manifest.
So he can polymorph out of having the muzzle, but since the curse says,
"You have a severe speech impediment, and any spells yu cast with a verbal component have a 20% chance of failing, wasting your action but not expending the spell. "
nothing in alter self changes that.
And in all of your examples there is a cost and a penalty that comes with that choice that balances the bonus.
Not that it matters to my point, but as a side note, there is a cost. Wolfscarred Curse gives a bonus to your bite attack and an arcane spell failure. Using change shape would negate both.
"The oracle’s curse cannot be removed or dispelled without the aid of a deity"
Is Change Shape being aided by a deity ?
If its not then the curse overrides it
And in all of your examples there is a cost and a penalty that comes with that choice that balances the bonus.
Not that it matters to my point, but as a side note, there is a cost. Wolfscarred Curse gives a bonus to your bite attack and an arcane spell failure. Using change shape would negate both.
"The oracle’s curse cannot be removed or dispelled without the aid of a deity"
Is Change Shape being aided by a deity ?
If its not then the curse overrides it
Even if it did what he wanted, Change Shape would neither be removing nor dispelling it, so this line of approach is irrelevant.
Even if it did what he wanted, Change Shape would neither be removing nor dispelling it, so this line of approach is irrelevant.And in all of your examples there is a cost and a penalty that comes with that choice that balances the bonus.
Not that it matters to my point, but as a side note, there is a cost. Wolfscarred Curse gives a bonus to your bite attack and an arcane spell failure. Using change shape would negate both.
"The oracle’s curse cannot be removed or dispelled without the aid of a deity"
Is Change Shape being aided by a deity ?
If its not then the curse overrides it
So your saying Change shape has no effect and the penalties and benefits of wolfscarred still apply ?
So your saying Change shape has no effect and the penalties and benefits of wolfscarred still apply ?Even if it did what he wanted, Change Shape would neither be removing nor dispelling it, so this line of approach is irrelevant.And in all of your examples there is a cost and a penalty that comes with that choice that balances the bonus.
Not that it matters to my point, but as a side note, there is a cost. Wolfscarred Curse gives a bonus to your bite attack and an arcane spell failure. Using change shape would negate both.
"The oracle’s curse cannot be removed or dispelled without the aid of a deity"
Is Change Shape being aided by a deity ?
If its not then the curse overrides it
Yeah, the penalties for Wolfscarred aren't written to depend on the the muzzle or any other body part, so the rules aren't on his side. It says you have a speech impediment and also have a muzzle. Not that the muzzle impairs your speech. There's no RAW reason not to apply the penalty even if you ditch the muzzle.
Yeah, the penalties for Wolfscarred aren't written to depend on the the muzzle or any other body part, so the rules aren't on his side. It says you have a speech impediment and also have a muzzle. Not that the muzzle impairs your speech. There's no RAW reason not to apply the penalty even if you ditch the muzzle.So your saying Change shape has no effect and the penalties and benefits of wolfscarred still apply ?Even if it did what he wanted, Change Shape would neither be removing nor dispelling it, so this line of approach is irrelevant.And in all of your examples there is a cost and a penalty that comes with that choice that balances the bonus.
Not that it matters to my point, but as a side note, there is a cost. Wolfscarred Curse gives a bonus to your bite attack and an arcane spell failure. Using change shape would negate both.
"The oracle’s curse cannot be removed or dispelled without the aid of a deity"
Is Change Shape being aided by a deity ?
If its not then the curse overrides it
Cool, then I misunderstood what your were saying as I agree the curse still applies.
Cool, then I misunderstood what your were saying as I agree the curse still applies.
No worries.
I was agreeing with the people saying no dice, but I was also arguing that trying to get around one rule by applying others was a legitimate approach, even if it doesn't work in this instance.