I like the concept of the alchemist, but quite dislike the mutagen. There are archetypes that change how it works, but strangely, none that replace it. Without an archetype that replaces it, we're left to guess at what it's equivalent value is. My question to any who would be so kind as to answer: What do you think would be a fair trade to replace mutagen?
You do have the option to just not use it, or there used to be an infusion for it so you could pawn it off on barbarian. Could give to mage with the Dubious Gift (?) spell so enemy drinks and gets sick...
As an alchemist, you could also go with the mind mutagen. Boost your int for your bombs. A fair trade is kinda hard to determine, cause is like a cleric you trades in channel... To me its an integral part. Like all doctors know how to stitch, but alot dont...
maybe an alchemist injecting his friends with it for half the benefit? kinda a pseudo rage? also, what kinda alchy are you thinking of, just bombs, there is a wizard archetype that gets their bombs... If you going for the buffs (their spells) then perhaps an inner pack that sacrifices one spell slot of each level to give you a chosen (chosen once) formulae that is in a pac inside of you, that you can use as a swift action? or std with no provoke, or perhaps even a buffed version (+1 CL, for instance)
just my 2cp
The mutagen is a powerful ability that can't have 100% uptime. Other than mind/body altering substance, what do you want from it? I'll throw some ideas out once you give us something to work with.
There are several archetypes that replace it though. Cryptbreaker, Mindchemist, Plague Bringer, and Saboteur all replace it.
Edit: Well, I suppose those are just mutagens that give different abilities instead of turning you into the hulk. Personally, I would just flavor them as different kinds of buff potions.
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The mutagen is a powerful ability that can't have 100% uptime. Other than mind/body altering substance, what do you want from it? I'll throw some ideas out once you give us something to work with.
As much as I understand the obvious Jekyll and Hyde reference, mutagen seems to clash horridly with the feel of the class. We've got a bookish scholarly type who essentially distills magic into a liquid form, and now he's turning into a brutish pounder? It makes as much sense to me as a wizard with the Rage ability.
What I'd like is something that makes sense for a bookish chemist/scholar type to have. I don't really have an idea where to start though, because the only published things are just different versions of the same thing. The Vivisectionist replaces Bombs with Sneak Attack. Two rather different things. I'd like to find a similar "different thing" to replace Mutagen with for Alchemist in my home game.
How does the mind mutagen (personality stat in place of physical) not fit... but... enchantable glasses? For x time grants bonus to knowledge when you consult a book for gather info/knowledge checks?
or a straight + to know, with penalty to str skills?
hmm..., tough one...
And I have seen raging wizards, and a more fearsome foe is hard to find...
As much as I understand the obvious Jekyll and Hyde reference, mutagen seems to clash horridly with the feel of the class. We've got a bookish scholarly type who essentially distills magic into a liquid form, and now he's turning into a brutish pounder? It makes as much sense to me as a wizard with the Rage ability.
What I'd like is something that makes sense for a bookish chemist/scholar type to have. I don't really have an idea where to start though, because the only published things are just different versions of the same thing. The Vivisectionist replaces Bombs with Sneak Attack. Two rather different things. I'd like to find a similar "different thing" to replace Mutagen with for Alchemist in my home game.
I disagree, the mutagen really plays into the flavor of the class abilities. An alchemist specializes in altering himself in order to handle situations. If anything, the bomb class feature clashes with the flavor of the class.
However, it would be interesting to replace mutagens...
Maybe give the alchemist some kind of inherent bonus or stat increase? A couple of evolution points to play around with?
As much as I understand the obvious Jekyll and Hyde reference, mutagen seems to clash horridly with the feel of the class. We've got a bookish scholarly type who essentially distills magic into a liquid form, and now he's turning into a brutish pounder? It makes as much sense to me as a wizard with the Rage ability.
What I'd like is something that makes sense for a bookish chemist/scholar type to have. I don't really have an idea where to start though, because the only published things are just different versions of the same thing. The Vivisectionist replaces Bombs with Sneak Attack. Two rather different things. I'd like to find a similar "different thing" to replace Mutagen with for Alchemist in my home game.
I disagree, the mutagen really plays into the flavor of the class abilities. An alchemist specializes in altering himself in order to handle situations. If anything, the bomb class feature clashes with the flavor of the class.
However, it would be interesting to replace mutagens...
Maybe give the alchemist some kind of inherent bonus or stat increase? A couple of evolution points to play around with?
It seems as though I'm in the minority in regards to not finding Mutagen a good fit for the Alchemist. I suspect I see the class differently.
They allready get Throw Everything, how would an ability allowing them to throw potions at allies to bestow the effects sound? Admittedly, a bit FF Tactics, but it's an idea.
No, I can see that. I'm not sure how bookish they are considering bombs, but that's valid. Hmm.
RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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It seems as though I'm in the minority in regards to not finding Mutagen a good fit for the Alchemist. I suspect I see the class differently.
I agree with you, I am not a fan of mutagens. In my home game, I gave them unique monster inspired alchemical abilities they can use. Flame aura, acid breath, shockwave, electric discharge, etc.
HEY WAIT A MINUTE! I already wrote this archetype. It's in the PDF secrets of tactical archetypes II as the spellchymist. I'll see if there's an online version of it.
Nope, not yet. It should be on d20pfsrd.com some day, and is in the private contributor's work stage page for now.
It seems as though I'm in the minority in regards to not finding Mutagen a good fit for the Alchemist. I suspect I see the class differently.I agree with you, I am not a fan of mutagens. In my home game, I gave them unique monster inspired alchemical abilities they can use. Flame aura, acid breath, shockwave, electric discharge, etc.
Sort of a Monster Lore based emulation? That's an interesting concept. Do you allow them to learn new ones by observing and/or experiencing monster abilities, ala blue mages?
Nope, not yet. It should be on d20pfsrd.com some day, and is in the private contributor's work stage page for now.
Some day I hope to read it. :P
I liked the cryptbreaker's version, not so much a fan of the "make mind stronger, body weaker" versions already in print.
A tangent, if you will: what about alternative 'template' type abilities developed from the same basic concept as mummification?
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idea one
start with Infusion as a free discovery instead?
this'd allow you to share your Extracts right out of the gate. may not match the Mutagens 'power level' but will make your alchemist more of a team player!
if this is not enough, you could allow a 'buyback' system which allows you to create persistent extracts that if 'bought back' with gp liberate the spell slot. this could follow a pricing similar to potion-crafting.
idea two
you want a bookworm?
take +2 skill points, grant Bardic Knowledge ability, and trade out Perception skill for all Knowledge skills.
Hrm .... you have some promise there rainzax.
Mutagens are the "Jekyll and Hyde" (arguably the inspiration for the class to begin with).
Three alchemist alternate base classes:
#1) "Hyde" - no bombs, it's all about the mutagen and smooshing stuff without bombs at all = master chymist writ large.
#2) "Jekyll" - no mutagen, more about alchemical discoveries that don't have to do with being a terrorist.
#3) "Mad Bomber" - self explanatory - this is ALL bombs, all day, YEAH BAAAYBEE!! Narrow but nightmarishly devastating until it runs out of bombs. Then ... worm poop.
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Drink This (Ex):
The alchemist can grant the effects of one of his extracts to an adjacent ally as a standard action. The ally must be willing, and must also be able to act (not be dazed, flat-footed, helpless, or stunned) to receive it's effects. If the ally is entangled or grappled, the alchemist must first succeed on a touch attack with a -4 to hit (a failure does not spoil the extract).
At 14th level, the alchemist may do this as a move action.
This ability replaces mutagen and persistent mutagen.
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If you have $3 to spend, get Advanced Options: Alchemist's Discoveries by Super Genius Games. They have two options that can fully replace on of the three other Alchemist class features, including Mutagen. One is a little week for player characters going off of the whole lead-to-gold thing. But the other one, Spagyric Devices, is just awesome and will replace Mutagen for any alchemist I play from now on (GM willing). It gives you a pool of gold that you can use to make temporary magic items each morning. Very cool and flavorful ability in my opinion. It alone was worth the price to me.
If you have $3 to spend, get Advanced Options: Alchemist's Discoveries by Super Genius Games. They have two options that can fully replace on of the three other Alchemist class features, including Mutagen. One is a little week for player characters going off of the whole lead-to-gold thing. But the other one, Spagyric Devices, is just awesome and will replace Mutagen for any alchemist I play from now on (GM willing). It gives you a pool of gold that you can use to make temporary magic items each morning. Very cool and flavorful ability in my opinion. It alone was worth the price to me.
I might just have to check that out, thanks.
Drink This (Ex):
The alchemist can grant the effects of one of his extracts to an adjacent ally as a standard action. The ally must be willing, and must also be able to act (not be dazed, flat-footed, helpless, or stunned) to receive it's effects. If the ally is entangled or grappled, the alchemist must first succeed on a touch attack with a -4 to hit (a failure does not spoil the extract).At 14th level, the alchemist may do this as a move action.
This ability replaces mutagen and persistent mutagen.
This is an interesting idea, but I think if I were going this route, I'd use your earlier suggestion of simply starting alchemists with Infusion. Maybe give them the ability to share an infusion effect with adjacent allies a limited number of times per day instead of persistent Mutagen.
The biggest flaw IMHO with the Alchemist: Black powder? We have a chemist and he's got nearly NO ability connected to guns and blowing things up?
Well, bombs, yeah. But could he really blow a bridge up? No, he's only got bombs that blow up within seconds.
So give him real big bombs. And guns and cannons.
Kobold Quarterly #19 had a great one gave animal companion that could have Discoveries for giving up bombs or mutagen it was awesome.
I highly recommend the spagyric devices too. Really cool idea.
I think the KQ thing is related to magical ink.
I've tried to fast track my thing on d20pfsrd.
I highly recommend the spagyric devices too. Really cool idea.
I think the KQ thing is related to magical ink.
I've tried to fast track my thing on d20pfsrd.
same book but that's the Calligaphist also a good archetype though
The archetype I was referring to is up on the website now.