my perspective of jade regent is somewhat different then most people, in that i've never so much as read a back cover for rise of the runelords or curse of the crimson throne or even second darkness so i had no history with ameiko and company so it was quite easy for me to kind of push them to the back of the caravan so to speak. i will try to add more to them in the last adventure maybe since no one in the party has a desire to be empress or emperor of minkai so someone's gotta take over:).
one member wants to return home in the land of the linnorm kings (with a linnorm head preferably), the witch doesn't care where she goes as long as she gets her dancing hut at 18th level (thank you ultimate magic!) the bard (archaeologist archetype) wants to be a famous explorer, with a focus on local food and spirits (he's a halfling) and the ninja just wants to be a super sneaky ninja (played by my 9 year old daughter so its understandable)
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Are you talking about NPCs carrying over between adventures and playing strong roles?
Foreshadowing?
Recurring villains?
Monster themes?
A recurring philosophy or organization or religion?
Something else entirely?
Foreshadowing, recurring npc allies, making it so the players have some idea of what's going on, and sticking to the story.
To use CotCT as the example the first book Edge of Anarchy, was exactly that. You start off with a foundation for how the city feels, get to do some adventuring in it; and then anarchy happens! This anarchy continues strongly for the next two books, the first three books easily feel like one big book. History of Ashes/Scarwall make for a break in the action (one a bit too long in hindsight, I think those two should have probably been combined as one book by making Scarwall smaller) and then we are back in the city to save the day.
Skull and Shackles also does this well; your home base traveling with you is a huge boon. I would put Jade Regent with that, but my DM isn't really playing up the NPCs at all, I am not sure if that is his playstyle or as written.
Carrion Crown and Runelords both suffer from the PCs at some point (usually around book 4) going "Wait, what is it we're doing it and why?" Carrion Crown you end up just tailing behind the WW cleaning up whatever horror-themed mess they've left behind. Runelords (as originally written) comes off as a series of adventures that just so happened to have a big bad running things behind the scenes. The PCs need to be invested in completing the entire AP from the first book. The Cressidia/Ileosa dynamic does a fantastic job of that (a solid ally and a solid villain. Also Sandara/Harrigan).
This got a bit rambly and it's late here so I'm gonna hold it off on that and will add more if I think of it after sleeping :)
Soon, we're transitioning over to 64 page adventures. The first of these, "The Dragon's Demand," starts at 1st level and it looks like it'll have enough content to carry PCs to 6th or maybe 7th level. Perhaps more.As James already points out the one recent example we have of a single-writer AP, Way of the Wicked, is releasing over a period greater than six months. Paizo can't do that. They need an issue to release every month if it's to be in the core AP line. Now, a mini-AP released under the new Module format may be of interest to you but even these probably won't cover more than 3 to 4 levels of progression.
I've been looking forward to it since it was announced. As for future modules that might start at higher levels: do you expect the same degree of level range? Is my 3 to 4 levels (on average) estimation too conservative? I'm good either way,regardless of the answer, and I'm really looking forward to seeing what comes out of the new format.
Creative Director
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I've been looking forward to it since it was announced. As for future modules that might start at higher levels: do you expect the same degree of level range? Is my 3 to 4 levels (on average) estimation too conservative? I'm good either way,regardless of the answer, and I'm really looking forward to seeing what comes out of the new format.Soon, we're transitioning over to 64 page adventures. The first of these, "The Dragon's Demand," starts at 1st level and it looks like it'll have enough content to carry PCs to 6th or maybe 7th level. Perhaps more.As James already points out the one recent example we have of a single-writer AP, Way of the Wicked, is releasing over a period greater than six months. Paizo can't do that. They need an issue to release every month if it's to be in the core AP line. Now, a mini-AP released under the new Module format may be of interest to you but even these probably won't cover more than 3 to 4 levels of progression.
No, but only because higher level encounters take up more room. Certainly I could see a high level 64 page adventure cover 3 levels. Maybe 4.
I have heard that about AE, but have not the money to rebuy an AP I already finished. I am running Shattered Star now and would place it towards least cohesive from book to book. It was not intended to be cohesive though; it really needs an antagonist (like competing adventurers) for me to consider it cohesive.In fact, back to the "cohesive feel," that's something I think that we CAN improve on while still using multiple authors. Because every AP has only one developer, and that person can really shape the entirety of the Adventure Path.Most cohesive: Crimson Throne, Skull and Shackles
Least: Runelords, Carrion Crown
Honorable mention: Second Darkness as both very cohesive and not. Books 1-3 and 4-6 awesome. Going 3-4 is the failure
Runelords Anniversary edition actually fixes A LOT of the cohesive issues people had. Also, you should check out Shattered Star because they do a really good job at keeping things together and calling back to older volumes.
Also I like the fluff in the AP. While I'll never get to run all the APs I have, I do enjoy reading them and the fluff in the back keeps me coming back for more.
Really? I've found it to be the opposite for Shattered Star, although perhaps we have different stipulations for cohesive. I found that the adventures flowed into each other rather well, especially since the artifacts lead you to where the next one is at. Admittedly, each zone was it's own adventure that made up a more general adventure, but I liked how the adventures had call backs to what happened to the PC's previously, especially that special trap in Book 2.
And while it did introduce the final boss towards the end, they do such an incredible job of building him up in that dungeon that by the time you finally fight him, you feel as though you pretty much know all about him. I think it fits well with that AP. That said, they do mention research you can do on the runelords which could help to let the players know who Xin is early on.
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Yes it has been done. But not by the person who inspired me to post this request again. And just because it's been done before doesn't mean there's nothing more I can learn.
And simply saying an AP is a "particularly notable offender" helps no more than saying one AP works well.
I'm looking for specific examples.
Are you talking about NPCs carrying over between adventures and playing strong roles?
Foreshadowing?
Recurring villains?
Monster themes?
A recurring philosophy or organization or religion?
Something else entirely?
I think recurring NPCs with strong roles, recurring villains, foreshadowing, and recurring themes tend to be a big part of it.
AP SPOILERS EVERYWHERE
Shattered Star worried me a bit here, because while I love the BBEG and he is built up within the final adventure, it would probably help more if his influence was felt and known earlier on. That's why one big change I'm making for my group is to build up Xin as a possible hero cut down in his prime, before the truth comes out.
The other big change I really think I need to make for my groups is just completing what is already present in part for allies: Recurring villains. Expanding some of the already present major enemies into full blown rival factions, as well as introducing some new ones to the AP(like the Aspis Consortium), as well as new potential allied factions and factions that could go either way will hopefully make things "flow" a bit more from one book to the next. Each book would probably still have its own theme, but there would be more continuity carrying over as their relationships and struggles with these other groups changes and updates as they go along. I guess that would be my big complaint about Shattered Star: No villains/rivals designed to carry over across multiple books. But, it's feeling like Shattered Star has been made to easily adjust towards that direction.
EDIT- One thing I need to say about both Crimson Throne and Shattered Star that really got me eager to run them was the abundance of rich characters that went beyong "these are evil so PCs should kill them". Crimson Throne really encouraged players to really think about what they were doing and the morality of their choices, and Shattered Star looks like it's going to do the same thing.
From a player's perspective, and this is only going off of these APs as I've experienced them so far, Jade Regent has felt the strongest so far, due partly to how smoothly the books seem to flow from one to the other(I honestly can't tell when one begins and one ends for certain), and the NPC cast. The NPCs have been a huge boost to player investment. I'd hesitate to credit the Relationship rules for that, because I still have misgivings about overquantifying roleplaying, but it has honestly been difficult to tell many "minor" NPCs from "major" NPCs so far. They've all felt so well realized.
The locales we've passed through being brought to vibrant life is also a huge deal. There really is a lure to explore everything you can whenever you stop at a town while also aching to see what's next over the horizon.
EDIT-I believe the seal and what it does may be playing a big part in that too, after looking down and seeing my note about Skull and Shackles' early lethality and resulting disconnects.
Carrion Crown's NPC cast felt a bit less endearing to me, but that's probably expected from its evoked genre to a point. As we experienced it though, it did sometimes dip into "darkness induced audience apathy". I think the other thing that felt rather jarring was the sudden appearance of sanity rules, which I have to admit I have a hard time with as they were presented to us when many of the things meant to be mind-breaking weren't much worse from what we had faced already or all that different from what most adventurers face without ever losing it. I think the sanity check that really knocked me out of the mood most was caused by seeing what I'm pretty sure was a shantak, which honestly doesn't look too different from a dragon, flying over and sticking its head through a ceiling to roar at us. Ultimately, that probably comes down to both presentation and expectations. I think the fourth book was where it hit us the most with the "audience apathy" feel, while Trial of the Beast felt the other way around, though I may be focusing on one NPC in particular there.
Legacy of Fire, we hadn't gotten far enough along to really tell, but the beginning did seem to have a good flow starting up and potential NPC-investment goodness seeming to be in the wings. The idea of rebuilding that town and populating it with those and other NPCs certainly did have me excited about the future.
Skull and Shackles, we're still pretty early in, but if one buys into the premise put forth in the beginning it seems to hit the ground running. Again with the rich cast of NPCs. If I had to make a complaint, it was that the first book felt overly lethal, to the point that it causes a disconnect when new characters are brought in to replace those that had developed friendships and rivalries with those NPCs. In our current game, we only have one PC that was there from the beginning. While those of us bringing in new characters have gotten fairly comfortable with them, I can't deny that we lost something that had been built up in those sessions before reaching that island.
Kingmaker, it seemed to really hinge on what the GM and group made of it, so it's hard to judge for certain. I felt like there was a lot of investment potential there in NPCs and themes, but group dynamics could make it hard to get to them sometimes. I honestly feel like the kingdom building rules were more time consuming and distracting than they needed to be, as well as overly constraining how folks may have wanted to build their fantasy kingdom by restricting them to tightly quantified subsystems that seemed to encourage breaking theme in order to survive the kingdom-maintenance portion of the game.
I think the subsystems as a whole tend to distract more than help actually, from both a GM and player standpoint. For example, I honestly can't say I wasn't relieved to find out Shattered Star wouldn't be using a new subsystem of rules. Having subsystems that don't have all the kinks worked out before implementation can be frustrating too, especially if it results in the group failing catastrophically in the subsystem game when their focus was on the main game.
Then again, I'd be hardpressed to say "no subsystems ever" because I can definitely see where they would be needed. It just that they tend to worry me when they turn up.
EDIT-Things that overly quantify roleplaying into numbers tends to kill the mood too, if that makes sense.
Huh...
I often come on these boards and get surprised by what the accepted truth is on various Paizo products. I don't consider Carrion Crown to be incoherant at all, it's a chase that for me flowed perfectly from module to module.
Doesn't have to do anything with "accepted truth" or "common wisdom" or whatever. I GM'ed that AP myself and had to do extended rewrites so that there even existed recurring NPCs between modules. If you use it as written, the first four modules are almost completely unrelated to each other and the fifth and sixth modules connection is really tenuous. I think Count Galdana is about the only NPC who makes it from one module to another and he is an incredibly minor character.
The problem with getting the authors together along with the editing staff is that is a TREMENDOUS amount of logistics to pull off. If I can solve it by involving one person—the developer—that's a much more efficient way of handling multiple NPCs who play recurring roles in an adventure. We've done it before, I think, quite well—Savage Tide, for example. And Curse of the Crimson Throne. But those were adventure paths where recurring NPC elements were built in from the start.
I've been a member of raid guilds when World of Warcraft still had 40 man raids. We managed to get everyone into Teamspeak once or twice a week without too much trouble. Set an hour and everybody makes some free time and gets out the headset. It's not that huge an amount of logistics and the authors want to get paid, contrary to us people who just showed up reliably for some virtual loot.
In theory, Jade Regent was going to have that element, but that AP suffered a bit due to the fact that the developer was not the person who outlined the adventure path—that also happened with Carrion Crown. That's something we've stopped doing, but since then, we've not really done an Adventure Path that features a lot of recurring NPCs... I guess there are some, in fact, in Skull & Shackles... does that do the job? Or was it a disappointment.
While I have Skull and Shackles, I haven't really read it, beyond looking cursory at some stat blocks and the artwork. I'm not up for GM'ing a pirate adventure and thus want to keep some suspense in case someone else in my circle of friends one day decides to GM it. Same with Serpents Skull and Shattered Star.
IN ANY EVENT: I'm getting from all this feed back that you in particular are simply looking for recurring NPC allies, NOT anything else, correct?
I'll need to think on that a bit, I wrote my post yesterday at around midnight while being quite tired and right now I need to leave for work in 15 minutes. I'll try to get my thoughts together there, but I had the feeling yesterday that I was still missing something, but I was a bit too tired to really concentrate.
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So I started a little 3rd party publishing company called KromeDragon Games. I wrote 3 little, simple adventures you can drop in an adventure. They did quite well. I was VERY happy with how well they did.
Then I took an old adventure I had worked on ages ago, something I thought would be a great adventure path and started fleshing it out. O M F G!
My best estimate is 2 years. Based on the time I have to write and the amount of work to be done.
Then factor in that a buddy and I are working on a hard sic-fi game using a different mechanics, we might as well push it back to 4 years. *sigh*
You know the worst part? You get to a section and say "I've done it! That is COMPLETE" ... and then you get a new idea... son of a blankety blank! that is SOOOOO much better so back to rewrite and modify the plot... and then you're all done with that part, except... wait... that one part of the plot doesn't REALLY make sense after that idea was put in... oh bother it all! back to the plot... bangs head on keyboard... no more ideas! Please gods, no more ideas! *cries hysterically* then an idea pops into your head... NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO! Then you hand it off to friends to read... and one of them says "Hey you know that part with the worms... do you think it would have been better as snakes?" snakes? snakes. SNAKES! Of course it was so OBVIOUS why didn't I make them SNAKES! so you rewrite it all and it is now snakes... you give it to another friend who reads it and say... "Hey you know those snakes? Would have been cool if you added in a Medusa in that encounter." bangs head on wall. why? why? of course it would have been better, and the Medusa could have a backstory that fit PERFECTLY!
I hating writing adventure paths! I wanna go back to my side quests. *whimper*
And THAT boys and girls is why I am NOT a professional game writer. I could never afford the psychiatrist bills. :)
Oh well... back to working on the adventure now. :)
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Alright, some further thoughts on what the story areas are in which I perceive that the APs could be improved.
First off, what Mikaze says about CotCT is absolutely true. I'm a bit less on board with what he says about the NPCs from Jade Regent being so well realized, but that could well be a lingering grudge because I expected even more RP material for them. I've went on in length here and in my review thread of the AP about Carrion Crown, so I think I've said most I can about that subject.
While I've personally focused on recurring friendly NPCs so far, recurring villains are also very important. A main villain who is known early on in the AP ( not necessarily as a villain from module one. I had the main villain from Carrion Crown appear as an outwardly friendly NPC and benefactor until the beginning of module six ) is highly helpful so that players can build up some sort of connection/rivalry with him.
Foreshadowing also could be improved upon. Having an "A-ha!" moment later on in the AP for something mysterious or something which seemed innocuous at first glance helps create connection between the modules. In the Dresden Files, Jim Butcher just put additional context in the fourteenth part of the series about plot points which happened in the first novel.
Monster themes are a nice thing for Rangers and people who favor Bane weapons. :p
As for recurring religions/philosophies, I think those could be coupled with improving the presence of recurring friendly NPCs throughout the campaign. One thing which I found was lacking in many NPCs is that they have no local "flavor", as in that characters from Varisia do not behave noticeably different than NPCs from Brevoy. NPCs which better exhibit local customs or their religion would help to familiarize players with Golarions varying locales and make it clearer that they are playing in an area with different traditions than the last one they were playing in one AP ago.
For example, I still don't have a firm grip on what makes Golarion elves different from their counterparts in other settings. As such, I often recur to the stereotypical "think themselves superior to everyone else" schemata, which I think is the wrong one. Having a permanent elf NPC along for a whole AP, who is fully fleshed out as a character, would help immensely to show how Golarion differs from other settings.
Shalelu could have been the one to do that in Jade Regent, but from her write-up she didn't seem particularly different than any human NPC, only very melancholic and stoic.
As for the number of recurring friendly NPCs, more than two or three are a chore for the GM and, as James himself said earlier, run the danger of taking away the focus from the players. I don't particularly enjoy running a conversation with myself in front of my players, which conversations between the four+ major NPCs of Jade Regent have often devolved into.
I think that covers most of it, although if anything else comes to my mind, I'll chime in again later. But better writer coordination and recurring NPCs really are my main points of contention, so that APs seem more like a seamless story than a series of barely related novellas.
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It also helped that I had Kendra Lorrimor accompany the players. I played her as a no nonsense Victorian adventuress with a bit of an austere but friendly attitude. In my game there was absolutely no way that she was not going to track down her Father's killers. I used her social connections to set up meetings with various NPC's in the AP particularly Embreth Daramid who Kendra considered to be an aunt.
Looking back I think that this was one of the most important things I did in the whole AP. The players were not hunting an ethereal nebulous enemy but rather the murderer of Kendra's father. This made a big difference
As for recurring religions/philosophies, I think those could be coupled with improving the presence of recurring friendly NPCs throughout the campaign. One thing which I found was lacking in many NPCs is that they have no local "flavor", as in that characters from Varisia do not behave noticeably different than NPCs from Brevoy. NPCs which better exhibit local customs or their religion would help to familiarize players with Golarions varying locales and make it clearer that they are playing in an area with different traditions than the last one they were playing in one AP ago.
A minor threadjack. THIS. This is precisely what I want to see in spades in not only APs, but every single campaign setting product. I as a GM, want a little bit of help when it comes to portraying the ethnic/regional/local identities of the NPCs.
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You know the worst part? You get to a section and say "I've done it! That is COMPLETE" ... and then you get a new idea... son of a blankety blank! that is SOOOOO much better so back to rewrite and modify the plot... and then you're all done with that part, except... wait... that one part of the plot doesn't REALLY make sense after that idea was put in... oh bother it all! back to the plot... bangs head on keyboard... no more ideas! Please gods, no more ideas! *cries hysterically* then an idea pops into your head... NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!
It may be cruel and sadistic of me to say so, but I laughed as I read this.
As someone who often has trouble due to getting NO good ideas, or no ideas at all, I'm afraid I can't offer any sympathy.
Are you talking about NPCs carrying over between adventures and playing strong roles?
Foreshadowing?
Recurring villains?
Monster themes?
A recurring philosophy or organization or religion?
Something else entirely?
In the campaign I recall most clearly from when I used to play (nearly 30 years ago), we met the BBEG fairly early on, when she seemed a fairly minor boss. I guess the DM levelled her up through the campaign, because we mostly never felt that she was too powerful for us. But she kept escaping. A lot of the rest of the campaign was either us interfering with her plans or her interfering with ours. She was a nasty piece of work anyway (for example, wiping out an entire village to replace the residents with her own people, and a nasty pleasure in torture for the sake of it). Add in being captured and having to crew a ship for her, and thinking we'd caught her and having her escape with contingencies at least twice, by the end, we really, really hated her. I imagine my PC returning to her grave annually and dancing on it. If, as a GM, I could inspire that amount of hatred for the BBEG in my players, I'd be proud of myself. But it relied on actually meeting her. It wouldn't have worked with a shadowy background figure.
Of course, while there was probably only a very small risk of us killing her early on, with the number of APs sold there will be parties that get very lucky, so the NPC would need a believable failsafe means of escape every time.
The advantage for the DM was an irresistable hook - by the end, any news of her meant we dropped everything else we were doing and went after her.
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Creative Director
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I've been a member of raid guilds when World of Warcraft still had 40 man raids. We managed to get everyone into Teamspeak once or twice a week without too much trouble. Set an hour and everybody makes some free time and gets out the headset. It's not that huge an amount of logistics and the authors want to get paid, contrary to us people who just showed up reliably for some virtual loot.
I've been there as well in Warcraft, and that's hardly the same thing as getting folks together to build a product. For one thing, if the logistics in a Warcraft raid fail and fall apart, there's not a chance of anyone involved losing a job. World of difference.
I've said it before and I'll say it again: The BBEG needs to be front and Centre the whole way through. CotCT worked because the PCs knew who to hate pretty early.
The APs need to stop shying away from revealing the last boss early. "Oh crap THAT'S the villain? We're going to need a bigger sword."
Not a designer or developer, just an amateur author, but from my perspective, it would seem the big issue with making the villain up front from the beginning is finding a way to rationalize why the PCs don't just go after him right away.
Mechanically, you explain it as "He/She/it's just higher level" but that's kind of an unfulfilling and uncreative way of expressing things. Even then, as the PCs progress through the AP and gain levels, at a certain point you need to find some other way of expressing the BBEG's uber-badness aside from simple levels, for the same reason. Which starts to beg the question of what sets one apart from the previous one?
Some more foreshadowing can work, but I don't think there needs to be one uber-BBEG as the throughline connecting all points of an AP. There are many ways of laying out a story (and an adventure) that don't require such solitary focus.
Not a designer or developer, just an amateur author, but from my perspective, it would seem the big issue with making the villain up front from the beginning is finding a way to rationalize why the PCs don't just go after him right away.
I liked the way the "Coin" trilogy of modules (by Kenzer and Company) handled that problem.
They then need to seek out an expert on the subject to find out how to defeat the Coin. When they find that expert, he tells the PCs that the only way to destroy the Coin is with another Coin. So the party has to quest for various items to help make a second Coin. Then a party member needs to TAKE the coin to the villain, all the while hoping that (s)he doesn't get corrupted by its power. Think "Lord of the Rings".
(But then, one could argue that an AP is so much bigger than a measly trilogy of modules, so that such a plot would be stretched too thin. I wouldn't know. I've never run such a big campaign before.)
I've been a member of raid guilds when World of Warcraft still had 40 man raids. We managed to get everyone into Teamspeak once or twice a week without too much trouble. Set an hour and everybody makes some free time and gets out the headset. It's not that huge an amount of logistics and the authors want to get paid, contrary to us people who just showed up reliably for some virtual loot.I've been there as well in Warcraft, and that's hardly the same thing as getting folks together to build a product. For one thing, if the logistics in a Warcraft raid fail and fall apart, there's not a chance of anyone involved losing a job. World of difference.
Sure, but maybe I am simply missing something here. You set up a day and an hour, do that maybe one or two months ahead of time and then everybody gets into voice chat and you talk it out, throw around ideas and so on. Of course that needs some moderation and order to be really productive, but I imagine about everybody on the team wants to write the best AP they can. Establish some ground rules so it doesn't devolve into people talking over each other and presto.
I'm probably simply missing some context here to get why the logistics are so difficult.
I've said it before and I'll say it again: The BBEG needs to be front and Centre the whole way through. CotCT worked because the PCs knew who to hate pretty early.
The APs need to stop shying away from revealing the last boss early. "Oh crap THAT'S the villain? We're going to need a bigger sword."
Not a designer or developer, just an amateur author, but from my perspective, it would seem the big issue with making the villain up front from the beginning is finding a way to rationalize why the PCs don't just go after him right away.
Mechanically, you explain it as "He/She/it's just higher level" but that's kind of an unfulfilling and uncreative way of expressing things. Even then, as the PCs progress through the AP and gain levels, at a certain point you need to find some other way of expressing the BBEG's uber-badness aside from simple levels, for the same reason. Which starts to beg the question of what sets one apart from the previous one?
Some more foreshadowing can work, but I don't think there needs to be one uber-BBEG as the throughline connecting all points of an AP. There are many ways of laying out a story (and an adventure) that don't require such solitary focus.
Well, in case of CotCT it was because
And you can include a main villain in other ways, without revealing him as the main bad guy. I did just that in Carrion Crown.
But I find that few things are more anticlimactic than facing the final boss at the end of an AP and both sides going "And who are YOU?". Carrion Crown did just that, if unchanged from the script.
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What Magnuskn said. Here are more examples:
Skull & Shackles Spoilers
It was the spotlight on the villain that sold me on Skull & Shackles. I'm turning up the volume on the second and third villain in that series in order to make it clear to the PCs on what they should be focused.
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In both my own Campaigns and in the AP's I have run, I have one exercise that I think has greatly increased the coherency.
After the PC's have been created, but before the game actually begins, I sit down and develop a premise. By premise I mean a short statement that addresses some character attribute, that implies some type of action and is phrased in the form of a question.
This concept of premise is similar, but not identical to Lajos Egri's idea of premise in his book "The Art of Dramatic Writing".
Anyway, I try to choose a premise that touches on the back stories of the PCs and, if possible, is related to the NPCs backstory and/or the conflicts in the stories.
examples of my premises include
Kingmaker AP "How important is your home to you?"
Jade Regent AP "What will you sacrifice to do your duty?"
Skull & Shackles AP "How selfish are you?"
Homebrewed Alkenstar Campaign "What is the price of justice?"
Forgotten Realms 3.0e "What do you do when facing impossible odds?"
After coming up with a premise, I then take a long look at the NPCs and the encounters.
For the NPCs I try to pick out attributes to emphasize that either illustrates some aspect of the premise or is in complete opposition to the premise. For example, if the premise is "Will True Love conquer all?", perhaps I will create a romantic interest for an NPC that is not described in the book, and make the relationship the most idealized example of romantic love that I can imagine. OR, perhaps I choose to describe that person that has had a life completely devoid of love and has no expectation to ever encounter it.
I then spend a little thought about how any characters will change over the time the PCs interact with them. If the NPCs are only briefly encountered, they may only change a little or not at all. For NPCs that are seen throughout the AP, I always script major changes for them.
Using the examples from the previous paragraph, perhaps the romantic interest is seduced by the BBEG, and the timid NPC farm girl from Book 1 becomes an avenger determined to win him back in Book 6, despite the fact she is a mere level 1 commoner. Or the cynical Mercenary who does not believe in love in Book 1, by Book 6 he is fighting to save a child that he has become ersatz parent of.
For a more concrete example, in the Jade Regent AP, I set the premise as "What will you sacrifice to do your duty?". In Book 1 I described Keiko as not wanting to go on the journey to Minkai; I described her as looking for any excuse to return to her old life. By Book 6, I was describing her as a person who did not relish the idea of taking the throne, but chose on her own free will to do so because she saw it as her duty.
For the encounters, I similarly look for ways to bind them to the premise. If I've chosen to emphasize "seductive but without love" in a particular Boss NPC, perhaps I will describe their lair as being outward flashy & attractive but lacking any substance; "gilt over rotten wood".
Now to be clear, when I describe changes, I don't mean a change in anything like changing stat blocks or in game abilities, but a change in how I describe them, choice of words in flavor text, speech patterns and so forth.
To keep these things straight, I list the following on an index card and clip it to the inside of my GM screen:
Premise
PC's Name and how premise relates to them
NPC's Name, how premise relates to them in the beginning and how they change over time.
Encounter Name and what to emphasize in descriptions
Then whenever I'm giving color text I can glance at the card as a reminder.
After every few gaming sessions I look at the card and make any changes necessary.
So.....
What does this have to do with One Writer AP's, coherency between books in an AP and coordination between writers simultaneously developing different AP books?
Perhaps the "showrunner" could set a premise for the entire AP. the showrunner could also specify the changes each continuing NPC; "Hates Bob at the end of Book 1, but by the end of Book 2 she respects him, and by the end of Book 3 treats him as a brother."
But of course, I have no experience with developing APs and while this technique may work for me, it may not be useful for anyone else.
I would be interested in any comments, positive or negative.
Those are my 2 cp.
EDIT: module ==> AP
I've been a member of raid guilds when World of Warcraft still had 40 man raids. We managed to get everyone into Teamspeak once or twice a week without too much trouble. Set an hour and everybody makes some free time and gets out the headset. It's not that huge an amount of logistics and the authors want to get paid, contrary to us people who just showed up reliably for some virtual loot.I've been there as well in Warcraft, and that's hardly the same thing as getting folks together to build a product. For one thing, if the logistics in a Warcraft raid fail and fall apart, there's not a chance of anyone involved losing a job. World of difference.Sure, but maybe I am simply missing something here. You set up a day and an hour, do that maybe one or two months ahead of time and then everybody gets into voice chat and you talk it out, throw around ideas and so on. Of course that needs some moderation and order to be really productive, but I imagine about everybody on the team wants to write the best AP they can. Establish some ground rules so it doesn't devolve into people talking over each other and presto.
I'm probably simply missing some context here to get why the logistics are so difficult.
I don't get it either. Teleconferencing with multiple participants is hardly a big deal for... any business, really. We do it all the time - continent wide.
I don't get it either. Teleconferencing with multiple participants is hardly a big deal for... any business, really. We do it all the time - continent wide.
Yea, and it was not a big deal when I was working either (retired now), but everyone is making an assumption that these guys are paid professional full time writers.
Greg is going to medical school. I don't know what the others do, but I very seriously doubt that any of them are full time at this gig. Coordinating schedules for folks that are US (and Europe?) that also have other full time jobs / requirements on them, is extremely difficult.
I know, even when everyone is full time on the job as when I was system support, it was still difficult between US, Europe and India to coordinate this stuff.
-- david
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The main reason the logistics would be difficult is indeed because they're freelancers. If they were staff writers, that's a totally different thing. But getting six authors to set aside several hours at a time for multiple meetings is tough when those authors have jobs, go to school, have newborn children, etc.
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If I land a freelance job (legal advisory or writing/research) and I read "video conferences over Internet" in the job description I cringe. These always gets scheduled when I'm supposed to a) teach at the university b) handle regular clients c) tend to my private life if time zones are involved.
Yeah, but they get paid for their work, so at least I'd be highly motivated to make some hours free, if that were in the contract. I don't know, send out a mail to everyone well in advance, give a number different possible dates for the voice chat conference and go from there. If I were a writer, personally I'd be totally fired up to coordinate with the other writers and I'd make some time, even if it were set up on the weekend.
Hell, you probably could sell visitor slots to fans just to listen in and make a pretty penny. ;)
Put it this way. Freelancers may be anywhere, not just in the US, which makes timezones a pain. (I've tried to co-ordinate real-time meetings across continents for other things, it's messy)
Say, meeting at 2pm Paizo time, like the RPGSS reveals. Handy for the developer.
Now for Freelancer A that's 5pm and he's stuck in the rush hour getting back from work.
For Freelancer B it's only 3pm and they are at home - but the school run needs to be done.
For Freelancer C it's 10pm and talking until midnight is likely, with work the next day as well.
For Freelancer D it's a cheerful 8am and needing to see 1 child to school, 1 to nursery, and get themselves to college in time for a lesson.
For Freelancer E it's 11pm, and it's been a long day...
Also, you have the potential problem of people for whom english is not a first language and those who struggle to understand the different accents in a voice chat (but can write well).
*shrugs.*
Co-ordination is good, but it doesn't have to be sit there and talk at a given hour. It could as easily be a shared document in a cloudspace somewhere everyone has access to - or even a forum.
I would add that a significant thing that breaks the sense of a cohesive arc is when an adventure path seems to re-use the same storytelling formula.
A good (or bad) example of this is Legacy of Fire. I GMed Legacy and loved it. My players loved it. But, books four and five felt eerily similar to us.
Consider the following summary, which could apply equally well to either book.
Against their will, the players are sent to an alternate plane of existence which previously served as a home to the efreeti Jhavhul. Travel away from this strange plane is blocked by powerful magic, and the group has no choice but to find the key to their release. Trapped without hope of resupply, the group must explore, meeting along the way powerful factions (which have been further split by Jhavhul’s departure) each of which vie for control of this plane.
Yeah. That all felt a little too familiar to me, and I had to change a good bit to make book five feel more "new". Arcs should avoid reusing the same storytelling formula, especially in books that occur back to back.
Put it this way. Freelancers may be anywhere, not just in the US, which makes timezones a pain. (I've tried to co-ordinate real-time meetings across continents for other things, it's messy)
Say, meeting at 2pm Paizo time, like the RPGSS reveals. Handy for the developer.
Now for Freelancer A that's 5pm and he's stuck in the rush hour getting back from work.
For Freelancer B it's only 3pm and they are at home - but the school run needs to be done.
For Freelancer C it's 10pm and talking until midnight is likely, with work the next day as well.
For Freelancer D it's a cheerful 8am and needing to see 1 child to school, 1 to nursery, and get themselves to college in time for a lesson.
For Freelancer E it's 11pm, and it's been a long day...
Also, you have the potential problem of people for whom english is not a first language and those who struggle to understand the different accents in a voice chat (but can write well).
*shrugs.*
Writing for Pathfinder is a bit different than being an artist for Marvel comics. I know that a lot of artists live in other countries than the US and don't even speak English all that well. But writing an AP requires a good command of the English language and I think most of contributors to Paizo are recruited out of the 3.x team of writers which has assembled in the US during the last 13 years and local fans. I could of course be wrong here.
Co-ordination is good, but it doesn't have to be sit there and talk at a given hour. It could as easily be a shared document in a cloudspace somewhere everyone has access to - or even a forum.And that actually is an excellent point. If the logistics of scheduling a voice call conference are really that ginourmously difficult, make a private forum and hash things out there. It will certainly take a bit longer, but people can participate on their own schedule.
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I am curious James, what so far you have taken from this thread?
Confirmation that folks do indeed like recurring NPCs.
A resolve to try to make the adventure paths have more foreshadowing.
And an observation that the call for more interconnected elements in the adventure paths isn't an overwhelming one—lots of folks seem to feel that the APs do a pretty good job at this already, with opinions as to which ones do it best relatively spread out. There's a vocal minority of folks who want more interconnections, particularly some who've been calling for us to do this for some time, and as it turns out I kind of agree with them.
Which makes me wonder if we can push things a bit more along the assumption that folks aren't afraid to look back and forth between volumes of an AP rather than err on the safe side and spend extra page count duplicating content when it comes to reccuring NPCs and villains.
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Which makes me wonder if we can push things a bit more along the assumption that folks aren't afraid to look back and forth between volumes of an AP rather than err on the safe side and spend extra page count duplicating content when it comes to reccuring NPCs and villains.
I think I'd be in the "don't mind looking back and forth between volumes" crowd. Then again, I prefer not starting the heavy-duty prep work until all volumes of an AP are out, and keep all six(and other books) on me when running. I'm perfectly fine with "See pg. 23 SDEoA #2" or such.
I guess one risk with that route might be if something falls through the cracks in one volume that's referenced in volumes before or after. Repeating does offer a bit of a safety net there.
But it hurts to give up all that space that could go to more material.
Probably the people most likely to be upset about that won't be posting on the forums.
I wonder what proportion of customers buy a single AP instalment without being concerned about having the rest?
Argh, quoting fail on my part in my last post. :(
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Which makes me wonder if we can push things a bit more along the assumption that folks aren't afraid to look back and forth between volumes of an AP rather than err on the safe side and spend extra page count duplicating content when it comes to reccuring NPCs and villains.
I'd rather look back in my existing AP modules and get some new developments for the recurring NPC in the current module than have important NPCs vanish from the plot between every module.
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Single-author-APs? Yeah, would be cool, but not managable, at least, not on a monthly basis, as it was already explained above.
BUT, I think the new 64-page modules will be exactly what I am looking for! The first module will get pcs from 1st to 6th, and it is written by a single author. Maybe, there will be follow up to modules from the same author, which picks up the story, and get us from 6th to 10th, or so.
Modules are also not such a huge commitement on time, as the APs.
So, I hope, the "64ers" will fill that gap!
I understand the underlying logistic problems about the one-writers AP. But I'd really love to see the AP being designed by an overall supervisor, which make a master plan for the whole AP and decides what is the metaplot and how to foresee it in the AP, how to make the story feel connected.
In some AP, the plot is clear (CotCT Queen has gone mad), in others, it is too hidden until too late (Nyrissa's plans in Kingmaker).
Some of the books are too disconected. Varnhold's Vanishing, in Kingmaker's 3rd book. Why is it a Kingmaker's adventure? It could be a Carrion Crown adventure, or Rise of Runelords, or any other AP. It's a settlement with missing people, sequestered by a cyclopean lich. But the Lich isn't related to Pitax or Nyrisssa. It has nothing to do with the AP, or the PC, or the plot. It's really a one shot adventure, that you happen to play during Kingmaker AP.
The relation is that you can expand your kingdom into this new domain, which will better prepare it for the upcoming conflict with Pitax. But in regards to the overall storyline, you are completely correct.
The relation is that you can expand your kingdom into this new domain, which will better prepare it for the upcoming conflict with Pitax. But in regards to the overall storyline, you are completely correct.
But the PC don't know there is an upcoming conflict with Pitax yet. They don't even know they can expand their kingdom until they finish the AP: they know the people of Varnhold is missing, but they don't know if the regents of Varnhold are dead or not. They could go there, save everybody, find that the regents are alive, and go back to their kingdom. The only reason we, as players, went there, is because we were told to do so. We even felt we were missing things in our own kingdom, which we were developing.
Also, take that adventure and move it to Rise of Runelords. Take RoR Hook Mountain Massacre. Interchange both. Do you see any problem? That's the problem, then. Varnhold Vanishing is so dissociated from the rest of the adventure path, that you could remove it, change it with an adventure written for a different AP, and... NOBODY WILL NOTICE. That's, Imho, the greatest sign of a unconnected AP. When you can change it with something else, and the plot doesn't even notice.
It happens with CotCT 4th book for example. Books 1-3, and 5-6 seem connected. But book 4 is bassically a sidetreck. You could remove the shoanti, make them elfs, and it will work just as well. You could swap it with some 1 shot module, or a book from another AP, then go back to scarwall and hunting something to defeat Illeosa, and it'll be just OK.
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I am curious James, what so far you have taken from this thread?Confirmation that folks do indeed like recurring NPCs.
A resolve to try to make the adventure paths have more foreshadowing.
And an observation that the call for more interconnected elements in the adventure paths isn't an overwhelming one—lots of folks seem to feel that the APs do a pretty good job at this already, with opinions as to which ones do it best relatively spread out. There's a vocal minority of folks who want more interconnections, particularly some who've been calling for us to do this for some time, and as it turns out I kind of agree with them.
Which makes me wonder if we can push things a bit more along the assumption that folks aren't afraid to look back and forth between volumes of an AP rather than err on the safe side and spend extra page count duplicating content when it comes to reccuring NPCs and villains.
Given the kind of risks Paizo is willing to take lately (going to earth in Reign of Winter and basing an entire AP on a new hardcover book of optional rules), I think the risk of attempting to create an AP with much stronger connections between adventures is rather minor. I can see a lot more people turned away from Wrath of the Righteous because it requires a whole new rulebook than people turned away from an AP module because it requires to get the previous adventures in the same AP. Of course evry AP Paizo creates is a risk by it's own unique features and stacking on top of that the desire to creat stronger connections between adventures only adds to that risk.
I join those who are willing to flip back and forth between seperate books in the AP to find the information about the background and plot rather than have it reprinted several times.
Are you talking about NPCs carrying over between adventures and playing strong roles?
Foreshadowing?
Recurring villains?
Monster themes?
A recurring philosophy or organization or religion?
Something else entirely?
Foreshadowing, recurring npc allies, making it so the players have some idea of what's going on, and sticking to the story.
To use CotCT as the example the first book Edge of Anarchy, was exactly that. You start off with a foundation for how the city feels, get to do some adventuring in it; and then anarchy happens! This anarchy continues strongly for the next two books, the first three books easily feel like one big book. History of Ashes/Scarwall make for a break in the action (one a bit too long in hindsight, I think those two should have probably been combined as one book by making Scarwall smaller) and then we are back in the city to save the day.
.......
Carrion Crown and Runelords both suffer from the PCs at some point (usually around book 4) going "Wait, what is it we're doing it and why?" Carrion Crown you end up just tailing behind the WW cleaning up whatever horror-themed mess they've left behind. Runelords (as originally written) comes off as a series of adventures that just so happened to have a big bad running things behind the scenes. The PCs need to be invested in completing the entire AP from the first book. The Cressidia/Ileosa dynamic does a fantastic job of that (a solid ally and a solid villain. Also Sandara/Harrigan).
I will strongly agree with this.
CotCT gave the GM a phantastic chance to establish the city and have people fall in love with it. Which made them return to it, invest in it and explore the details and subplots
And meeting the "BBEG" early on ? why not.... even make him/her a benefactor or sponsor for one of the earlier adventure (my CotCT players only realized the Queen was running the show occured in part #4 - until then, they very much assumed that the Queen was being manipulated and enchanted by her bodyguard and Chelian advisors). Have the BBEG someone getting corrupted under the PCs' eyes. Or have them replace a mentor from the earlier parts, or dominate them into asking stranger and stranger services from the PCs.
Sticking to a theme : Carrion Crown felt much too disjointed with the "new opposition" with each part. In a way, like a "Best of Horror" setpiece. Nevermind there really being few clues to the eventual BBEG, who actually seemed rather "tacked on".
Looking at "Skulls and Shackles" and character consistency : Nick Logue laid out a wonderful portfolio of crew and "minor bosses" for Harrigan's crew... but noone actually felt fit or induced to do anything much with them for the rest of the path.
Overall : I'd hope not for a single author AP, but one conceived and realized with a stringent theme, with recurring NPCs, plot-hooks linking up the individual AP parts, say starting in one and being resolved later on in another ....managed overall by a single supervisor in charge of the AP superstructure.
Excellent example. And an excellent Adventure Path too!
A few things that make Way of the Wicked so cohesive:
You have an identified goal since the begining (defeat Talingarde and impose Asmodeus)
The enemies are interconected: Lord Havelyn, lord havelyn's son, the knights of aleryon, the king, the celestials... When you need to put a silver dragon, it's the silver dragon which is related to the founder of the actual governing house. It's not a random silver dragon.
There are NPC that you can talk with, before fighting them. The second knot, Tiadora, Thorne, the seventh knot... You have chances to speak with Lord Havelyn, or the captains. You even talk with Valin Darian in Vandermir's birthday party.
If you notice, most of those are also relevant in the other AP highly praised as very coherent and immersive: Curse of Crimson Throne. There's a goal right in the begining (uncovering who killed the king), which promptly turns into defeating the Queen. You can talk to the Queen (even beeing congratulated by her) before confronting her. You can talk to the Arkona noble house, you see several NPC acting as anchor from the begining of the AP to the end. Vencarlo, the bard, the captain of the guard, the hellknights...
I wonder what proportion of customers buy a single AP instalment without being concerned about having the rest?
I would also wonder about a moderate form of that. How often would a GM prepare one volume of an AP before looking at the rest? Maybe the GM doesn't have time to read the all the volumes before beginning the campaign, or maybe not all the volumes have come out yet. The GM might later read further and shout "What?!? That NPC was secretly a bad guy? If I had known that, I would have run him completely differently!"
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I understand the underlying logistic problems about the one-writers AP. But I'd really love to see the AP being designed by an overall supervisor, which make a master plan for the whole AP and decides what is the metaplot and how to foresee it in the AP, how to make the story feel connected.
There have been several statements of this nature in this thread (so I'm not just picking on your, Gustavo) that reflect an inherent misunderstanding of the publishing mechanism by which APs are produced.
This "master plan" and "overall supervisor" person already exists. It is the AP's lead developer. So if you'd love it, you've not only got it, but you've always had it! =-)
Taking the current Shattered Star AP an an example, the plotline was written and finalized by Paizo long before any freelancer ever got a look at it. Oftentimes, such as the case of Shattered Star, the author of that outline is also the lead developer (in this case James), so you already have a Paizo professional who is not only responsible for tying all of the elements together between books, but is also usually the author of the AP's basic story structure.
Freelancers, in turn, receive this master outline as we are assigned chapters, and are immediately aware upon reading it of everything that comes before and after our respective chapters. In most aspects in very great detail. It is our job to flesh out those story elements and deliver an adventure that fits within the outline's structure. In some cases, we have relative freedom to do as we please within that overall plotline (your chapter might be a two-page outline, for example, that dictates certain plot elements, monsters, and continuing threads or NPCs), but at other times can't step beyond the bounds of the AP's basic assumptions and overall story arc.
So you've already got the grand architect you're requesting, both in the gigantic AP outline and in the lead developer. In fact, it is an inherent quality of the lead developer's job. Another inherent job is tying the overlapping plotlines together as tightly or loosely as they see fit, and, as this thread demonstrates, that's either done with various degrees of intent or effectiveness depending on the goals of the lead designer and considerations that range the entire gamut from single-volume sales to real-play consideration of "oh-crap-they-killed-the-BBEG-because-he-showed-up-in-Chapter-2."
So, with all that, from a freelancer's perspective, we've got someone watching our backs whose job it is to tie all the disparate elements of the various chapters together. And we proceed in that confidence, oftentimes turning over notes to reflect back on outline elements that leave it up to the developer to drop or pursue. And we trust them to do what they see fit, because they're pros and it is their baby, too. And given my privileged view from the inside, I think they do a fantastic job
I wonder what proportion of customers buy a single AP instalment without being concerned about having the rest?I would also wonder about a moderate form of that. How often would a GM prepare one volume of an AP before looking at the rest? Maybe the GM doesn't have time to read the all the volumes before beginning the campaign, or maybe not all the volumes have come out yet. The GM might later read further and shout "What?!? That NPC was secretly a bad guy? If I had known that, I would have run him completely differently!"
Using again Way of the Wicked as an example, FireMountain Games solved that, because it gave the customer a guide of what is going to happen in the 6 books. Just a little sentence here and there.
In book 1, the PC do that and go there.
In Book 2, they are asked to retrieve X, and are betrayed by Y
In book 3, they have to clean up the mess, and go to Z.
In book 4, they kill their target, but discover that the boss isn't fair.
In book 5, they go and kill the boss
In Book 6, the PC rule.
A bit of info here and there, and you know what to do with who, which characters are important, and what motivations do the NPC have. Enough to play them. Of course, having the whole story helps, so you can modify whatever you want to fit your PC, or anything else. But a guideline is good enough.
There have been several statements of this nature in this thread (so I'm not just picking on your, Gustavo) that reflect an inherent misunderstanding of the publishing mechanism by which APs are produced.
This "master plan" and "overall supervisor" person already exists. It is the AP's lead developer. So if you'd love it, you've not only got it, but you've always had it! =-)
Fair enough. Then I change my statement: I'd like to see the hand of the lead developer being clearer. In some AP, (some) chapters feel disconnected. I think the example of Book 3 of RotR and Kingmaker being interchangable completelly is a proof of how little is connected to the main plot in Kingmaker's Varnhold Vanishing. It's a good adventure, but it's a standalone adventure.
Also, it is good to know from Jacobs that "In theory, Jade Regent was going to have that element, but that AP suffered a bit due to the fact that the developer was not the person who outlined the adventure path—that also happened with Carrion Crown. That's something we've stopped doing, but since then, we've not really done an Adventure Path that features a lot of recurring NPCs..."
I'm in a game playing carrion crown (far from finished) and up u ntil now I feel a complete lack of cohesion. Perhaps it is different for the gm, as he knows how it all connects.
Perhaps it is different for the gm, as he knows how it all connects.
No, it's not.