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Ok, so I'm playing Pathfinder Society Aasimar Priest of Pharasma.
Now I took the Scion of Humanity Trait. This means Human traits are open to me. Then I took Eye for Talent, in the Alternate Racial Traits for Humans.
Does this mean I get a +2 Cha +2 Wis and (for me +2 Con).
Please let me know if you are Paizo staff and if this would be acceptable, everyone else please chime in and state your opinion, if you have one. :D
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Asked this in a different thread so I may have used the wrong place for PFS rule clarification. If I take the Scion of Humanity Trait, does that open all Human traits to me?
For any Paizo staff reading, I took Eye for Talent. So I now have +2 Wis +2 Cha and for me (+2 Con) at lvl. 1, although I was considering +4 Wis and +2 Cha as a Priest of Pharasma.
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Maezer is correct, that doesn't work. In a bit more detail:
The confusion is due to a bit of similar wording. Scion of Humanity allows you to count as human for this kind of race trait, the half-feat ability that you can take when building a character and which is sometimes limited by race.
Eye for Talent is an alternate racial trait, which you cannot take unless you are a human and give up your human bonus feat to gain its benefits.
Also, Eye for Talent doesn't give you +2 to one ability score, it gives your animal companion, mount, familiar or cohort +2 to an ability score. Your post seemed to be confused on this point. You may be confused with Dual Talent will give a human who gives up their bonus skill and their bonus feat +2 to any two ability scores (instead of +2 to one).
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You are confused. Maezer is correct.
By the way, counting as another race, is more or less meaningless in PFS, as all the cool racial stuff(from Advanced Race Guide) is restricted to said race.
So, you might count as Human for spells, race traits(not racial), feats, and racial archetypes, you cannot actually take the Human feats or archetypes in the Advanced Race Guide due to PFS restrictions.
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Asked this in a different thread so I may have used the wrong place for PFS rule clarification. If I take the Scion of Humanity Trait, does that open all Human traits to me?
You count as human for the purpose of effects related to race, which means the same thing that it means for half-elves, half-orcs and the Racial Heritage feat:
For example, if you choose dwarf, you are considered both a human and a dwarf for the purpose of taking traits, feats, how spells and magic items affect you, and so on.
"And so on," of course, being the troublesome part.
You can take human race traits and racial archetypes but not human alternate favoured class options. You don't gain (and can't swap out aasimar abilities for) any human racial traits, whether core or alternate.
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So, by this definition a Human who is Adopted by Elves, can't have a Racial Trait of Fleet-Footed? So the Aasimar isn't really human is the ultimate conclusion, even if he is a SCION of Humanity, which literally translates to "son or daughter of." In my case I would be a "Son of Humanity" which then should mean that I should have access to Human Racial traits.
P.S. BTW, you guys are correct I meant Dual Talent, not Eye for Talent.
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Scion of Humanity is by definition "Son or Daughter" of Humanity. That would make my character a Human, except for some residual Celestial DNA.
Obviously this is meant to be an exploit on my part, so I'm not pushing this quite so strongly but I do believe this is a loophole that is as wide as a barn door. :)
P.S. I should be allowed this, purely as a reward for out of the box thinking. :D
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Obviously this is meant to be an exploit on my part, so I'm not pushing this quite so strongly but I do believe this is a loophole that is as wide as a barn door. :)
This is not a loophole, it's just a case of two confusingly similar terms. The Aasimar racial trait is extremely clear about what it grants as long as you have the terminology straight. It's no more a "loophole" than a guy with a PhD in physics saying he should be able to write a prescription because he's a "doctor." A Doctor of Medicine is an entirely different thing from a Doctor of Physics, even if we refer to both people by the title "Dr. Smith." They have different requirements (in terms of the academic program) and different benefits (in terms of career qualifications).
A race trait is an entirely different thing from a racial trait. They are bought using different resources - the race trait by spending a "character trait" slot, and the racial trait by trading out your standard racial traits. As an Aasimar, you have character trait slots that you can spend for race traits. You do not have the bonus feat and skilled human racial traits (or the standard human ability scores!) to trade for the alternate racial trait Dual Talent.
P.S. I should be allowed this, purely as a reward for out of the box thinking. :D
Out of the box thinking is stuff like using Entangle or Grease with a Pit to make it harder for the target to get out of the pit. It is not using the wrong definition of a game term to gain a overpowered benefit.
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What the difference between a Racial Trait and a Race Trait is, is still beyond me. I'm ok with not getting it but this illusion that these two terms are somehow different in RL is absurd. If someone wants to claim that in PFS play they mean different things, that fine but a different words should have been used.
This is a link to Race traits on d20pfsrd.com: http://www.d20pfsrd.com/traits/race-traits
Race traits are one of five categories of Traits (Basic, Campaign, Race, Regional, and Religion) which a character can take at GM Discression based on the campaign. PFS allows for 2 traits. Many published APs grant one or two traits and in addition to a Campaign Trait which brings the character into the world.
the "Racial Traits" to which you refer are the aspects of a race that are inherent to that race, and not "Traits" as referred to by Scion of Humanity.
the Racial Trait Dual Talent replaces the human bonus feat. only humans have that bonus feat, and only humans can replace it to get a +2 to a second stat.
This is a common question, and an unfortunately worded element of the game, but they are not the same thing.
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The fact that they're Outsider (native) not humanoid (tiefling)
Tiefling Racial Traits
+2 Dexterity, +2 Intelligence, –2 Charisma: Tieflings are quick in body and mind, but are inherently strange and unnerving.Native Outsider: Tieflings are outsiders with the native subtype.
Medium: Tieflings are Medium creatures and receive no bonuses or penalties due to their size.
Normal Speed: Tieflings have a base speed of 30 feet.
Darkvision: Tieflings see in the dark for up to 60 feet.
Skilled: Tieflings gain a +2 racial bonus on Bluff and Stealth checks.
Spell-Like Ability: Tieflings can use darkness once per day as a spell-like ability. The caster level for this ability equals the tiefling's class level.
Fiendish Resistance: Tieflings have cold resistance 5, electricity resistance 5, and fire resistance 5.
Fiendish Sorcery: Tiefling sorcerers with the Abyssal or Infernal bloodlines treat their Charisma score as 2 points higher for all sorcerer class abilities.
Languages: Tieflings begin play speaking Common and either Abyssal or Infernal. Tieflings with high intelligence scores can choose from the following: Abyssal, Draconic, Dwarven, Elven, Gnome, Goblin, Halfling, Infernal, and Orc.
Just a note, a Tiefling or Aasimar with Scion of Humanity would, I believe, be considered Humanoid. So any ability such an Aasimar or Tiefling could have would, I think, be a valid target for Racial Heritage. Corner case I know, but....
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Hadn't really considered it from the native outsider point, I had assumed it just meant humanoid like the description. I had just assumed any race that was considered half human would probably be good to go =D
Simultaneously more and less than mortal, tieflings are the offspring of humans and fiends
But that's not the rules, was a fun thought though!
Scion of Humanity Some aasimars' heavenly ancestry is extremely distant. An aasimar with this racial trait counts as an outsider (native) and a humanoid (human) for any effect related to race, including feat prerequisites and spells that affect humanoids. She can pass for human without using the Disguise skill. This racial trait replaces the Celestial language and alters the native subtype.
I would agree with you if it wasn't for the bolded part. It actually modifies the native subtype to be both outsider native and humanoid human.
Racial Heritage (Human)The blood of a non-human ancestor flows in your veins.
Prerequisite: Human.
Benefit: Choose another humanoid race. You count as both human and that race for any effects related to race. For example, if you choose dwarf, you are considered both a human and a dwarf for the purpose of taking traits, feats, how spells and magic items affect you, and so on.
Like I said, a corner case, but it looks to me legit RAW. The racial trait modifies the Aasimer to be both native outsider and humanoid, while the feat says humanoid race. Again, it's a corner case, and I don't know if it was intended to interact that way, but strictly raw, it works.
But then you lose the aasimar-ness, meaning you no longer qualify for the scion of humanity-ness and then you divide by 0 because you no longer qualify for the feat that you just took and then the world explodes.
I think you're mistaking my meaning.
I mean, I think a Human could use the feat to take an Aasimar trait or feat or use Aasimar only equipment.
Although, it does say Humanoid (human)... so I guess a Scion of Humanity also counts as human for taking feats, which means they should be able to take the feat to get say, an Orc racial trait or qualify for an orc feat.
That's not how it works.
The Aasimar is still an Outsider, and a Human cannot choose it for the Racial Heritage feat.
Question : Does the Racial Heritage feat require the selected race to be Humanoid? Yes. It does.
Question : Does the Human Scion change the Aasimar's racial type to both Native Outsider and humanoid human? Yes it does.
Question : Is Humanoid (Human) a Humanoid? Quite obviously, it is.
Question : Is an Aasimar (Human Scion) a different race from a Human? Ye, quite obviously it is.
Question : Does a Aasimar (Human Scion) have the ability to take Racial Heritage? Yes, it does, it is a Humanoid (Human).
Question : Can a Human select Aasimar (Human Scion) as another race for Racial Heritage? It is a humanoid, it is not the same race as the human. It appears to be valid.
Is that the intent? No, I think RAI, it's not a valid target for the feat. I think RAI, it is valid for a Human Scion to take Racial Heritage, but not be valid to be the target. However, RAW, we've got an odd corner case where it seems to be valid.
Unrelated question about the feat: What effects aside from feat prerequisites does being a human too open you to? Bane weapons, favored enemy, enlarge/charm person..? Like, I know it's all of them, but I don't know how broad a spectrum that is.
Just because it could count as Humanoid, doesn't make it Humanoid.
Again, if it said it counted as human, I'd agree. But it specifically says it changes the subtype. Since it changes the subtype (see the bolded quote above), it's no longer strictly native outsider. Again, RAI, I agree with you. RAW, it's now a different, but valid, race.
Also, as to human only class archetypes and feats...
An aasimar with this racial trait counts as an outsider (native) and a humanoid (human) for any effect related to race, including feat prerequisites and spells that affect humanoids.
An aasimar with Scion of Humanity would qualify for a human only archetype. Again, perhaps not RAI, but RAW.
Again, BBT, we are mostly in agreement on what the INTENT was, but the wording of the abilities makes it, as WRITTEN, work differently than was INTENDED.
EDIT : BBT, Racial Heritage doesn't make one Humanoid (Human, Dwarf) does it? No, it doesn't change the subtype. Scion of Humanity explicitly changes the subtype to Outsider (Native), Humanoid (Human). That is a major change rules mechanic wise. It creates an entirely new race that is both Native Outsider, and Humanoid (Human). They are as much human as aasimar. The closest I can come to it from a base rules perspective is Humanoid (Half-elf), which is functionally Humanoid (human, elf). This was not, I don't believe, the RAI, but it's what they wrote. I think it should probably be errata'd, the last line of Scion of Humanity is not needed. Because of it's addition though, anyone taking it is not Aasimar, or Human, they're both, which is a new race. They don't just count as, they are.
When you take the racial heritage feat, are you then able to take scion of humanity? nope, RAW totally can't.
RAI, regardless of scion or not, they are both described as half human so it would be ok with me as a GM.
Of course you can't. You can't take another race's race trait. You can never take another race's race traits. Ever. There's no rule (that I'm aware of) that ever let's you do so, so I don't understand this question.
It's like saying, if I take racial heritage, can I take the dwarven Sturdy trait. No, you totally can't. Because it's a race trait, which can't be taken by any non-dwarf. All racial heritage does is let you take Racial Traits (note the different spelling), qualify for feats, items only usable by the other race, archetypes, etc.
Except that by that logic, you would not be able to pick up a half-elf only feat or racial trait using Racial Heritage, but you can. So... the logic falls down.
Better to to be an Aasimar, with the Scion of Humanity alternate racial trait, and the Racial Heritage feat.
Agreed,
You can be a Scion of Humanity Aasimar, take the Racial Heritage feat, and be a Native (Outsider), Humanoid (Human), and count as say an Orc.The downside of course, is you give up immunity to spells that only affect humanoid (again, thanks to that darn line about altering your subtype, now you are humanoid (human) and can be charm person'd). Of course, you can also be enlarged.
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So, you might count as Human for spells, race traits(not racial), feats, and racial archetypes, you cannot actually take the Human feats or archetypes in the Advanced Race Guide due to PFS restrictions.
•Scion of Humanity Some aasimars' heavenly ancestry is extremely distant. An aasimar with this racial trait counts as an outsider (native) and a humanoid (human) for any effect related to race, including feat prerequisites and spells that affect humanoids. She can pass for human without using the Disguise skill. This racial trait replaces the Celestial language and alters the native subtype.
Emphasis mine. Scion of Humaninty does qualify for human racial feats.
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So, you might count as Human for spells, race traits(not racial), feats, and racial archetypes, you cannot actually take the Human feats or archetypes in the Advanced Race Guide due to PFS restrictions.Emphasis mine. Scion of Humaninty does qualify for human racial feats.•Scion of Humanity Some aasimars' heavenly ancestry is extremely distant. An aasimar with this racial trait counts as an outsider (native) and a humanoid (human) for any effect related to race, including feat prerequisites and spells that affect humanoids. She can pass for human without using the Disguise skill. This racial trait replaces the Celestial language and alters the native subtype.
Dude, did you just use some other guy's quote, as if it were mine?
Not cool.