Disarm reads, "If you successfully disarm your opponent without using a weapon, you may automatically pick up the item dropped."
If you make a successful disarm attempt with a claw attack, can you pick up the dropped item?
I would allow it, since unarmed attacks allow you to do it. A claw is not much more than a hand with sharp fingers really.
Yeah, I think there would be a low DC on the Fast-Talk GM check, but I'm really curious how it would hold up in PFS, as I'm trying to make a build that uses this as its main schtick:
Tengu (Claw Attack, Carrion Sense)
strength 8, dexterity 18, constitution 12, intelligence 10, wisdom 17, charisma 10
gear: Agile Amulet of Mighty Fists, wand of Mage Armor
1: Weapon Finesse, Improved Disarm, Improved Unarmed Strike, Elemental Fist
2: Improved Trip, Evasion
3: Weapon Focus (claws), Maneuver Training, Maneuver Defense, Fast Movement
4: Ki Pool, Reliable Maneuver
5: Fury’s Fall, Meditative Maneuver
6: Greater Disarm
7: Combat Reflexes
Whether or not it works, this character can make 4 disarm attempts on a full attack at level 1, and once he succeeds on the disarm, make the rest of his attacks at his full BAB.
But disarm is a lot more crippling if you can't just pick your weapon back up, so that would be the icing on the cake. It matters less at level 6, though, once he gets Greater Disarm.
I would rule that if you are attempting to disarm using the claw as a weapon then no, if you were attempting to disarm whilst unarmed with a clawed hand then yes.
To clarify, if you were willing to take the -4 to hit penalty for disarming whilst unarmed and were prepared to take an AoO unless you had both Improved Unarmed Strike and Improved Disarm then I would rule you could take the weapon.
Visually I see the claw attack as swiping at the weapon to dislodge it from the holder's grasp and the unarmed strike as grabbing the weapon and twisting it out of the opponent's hand.
EDIT: In the case of your character the -4 to hit would apply as you already have improved unarmed attack and improved disarm at level 1
If you make a successful disarm attempt with a claw attack, can you pick up the dropped item?
No.
There are two clauses in disarm.
Disarm: "Attempting to disarm a foe while unarmed imposes a –4 penalty on the attack."
and
Disarm: "If you successfully disarm your opponent without using a weapon, you may automatically pick up the item dropped."
The first one checks if you're armed. Are you armed? You've got claws (or spiked gauntlet or holding a sword, whatever) so you're armed. No penalty.
The second one checks to see if you used a weapon. Did you? If you used your claws (or sword or whatever) in the disarm attempt, then you used a weapon. If not, you didn't use a weapon, so you can automatically pick up the item.
If you're not using the weapon to perform the maneuver, then the weapon’s bonuses (enhancement bonuses, feats such as Weapon Focus, fighter weapon training, and so on) would not apply to the roll.
If you make a successful disarm attempt with a claw attack, can you pick up the dropped item?No.
There are two clauses in disarm.
Disarm: "Attempting to disarm a foe while unarmed imposes a –4 penalty on the attack."
and
Disarm: "If you successfully disarm your opponent without using a weapon, you may automatically pick up the item dropped."
The first one checks if you're armed. Are you armed? You've got claws (or spiked gauntlet or holding a sword, whatever) so you're armed. No penalty.
The second one checks to see if you used a weapon. Did you? If you used your claws (or sword or whatever) in the disarm attempt, then you used a weapon. If not, you didn't use a weapon, so you can automatically pick up the item.
If you're not using the weapon to perform the maneuver, then the weapon’s bonuses (enhancement bonuses, feats such as Weapon Focus, fighter weapon training, and so on) would not apply to the roll.
Unarmed Strike is considered a weapon. If I have an Amulet of Mighty Fists and attempt to disarm with a free hand, are you suggesting that the Amulet does not function for the disarm if I want to take the weapon?
Unarmed Strike is considered a weapon. If I have an Amulet of Mighty Fists and attempt to disarm with a free hand, are you suggesting that the Amulet does not function for the disarm if I want to take the weapon?
Rather, if you use the amulet (or any other weapon-specific bonuses or effects) then that means you're using that weapon to disarm, which means you can't automatically pick up the item.
Unarmed Strike is considered a weapon.So you stated yourself that unarmed strike is considered a weapon, and it's already been cited that you can only auto-pickup the enemy's item if you don't use a weapon.
The logic from here is not difficult.
I don't think the rules are clear on this (which is why I made the thread)
Unarmed strikes count as light weapons (for purposes of two-weapon attack penalties and so on).
If unarmed strikes count as weapons, it would never be possible to "disarm your opponent without using a weapon."
Yet clearly the intent is that you can do this with an unarmed strike, so could you also do it with a natural weapon?
If you make a successful disarm attempt with a claw attack, can you pick up the dropped item?No.
There are two clauses in disarm.
Disarm: "Attempting to disarm a foe while unarmed imposes a –4 penalty on the attack."
and
Disarm: "If you successfully disarm your opponent without using a weapon, you may automatically pick up the item dropped."
*snip*
To put those two sentences in more visual terms, you can disarm either by:
1) Flicking or knocking the weapon out of their hands (you are armed and cannot keep the weapon)2) Trying to grab the weapon away (-4 penalty and you keep the weapon in hand)
I believe that using an unarmed strike or claw to disarm is the first situation, and you cannot keep the weapon. Not sure if that is what was intended, though.
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If unarmed strikes count as weapons, it would never be possible to "disarm your opponent without using a weapon."
Yet clearly the intent is that you can do this with an unarmed strike, so could you also do it with a natural weapon?
You're missing some information. I'll fill you in:
Paizo Blog: Combat Maneuvers and Weapon Special Features
If you want exact quotes, I'll leave it to you to read it from that link, but here are the relevant parts:
First, by default, some maneuvers (disarm, trip and sunder) generally use a weapon. The rest (such as, say, grapple or steal or dirty trick or bull rush) don't use a weapon unless you have some kind of special exception.
Second, unarmed strikes (and natural attacks) count as weapons for this purpose.
Let me recap for emphasis: most maneuvers are performed without using a weapon, and unarmed strike is a weapon, therefore most maneuvers are performed without even using "unarmed strike".
Furthermore, this blog (and related FAQ entry) declare that the mechanical consequence of using/not using a weapon for a maneuver is that you do/don't get to apply weapon-specific bonuses to the attempt. For instance, having a +3 sword will add +3 to a combat maneuver check that uses it, but other maneuvers (like, say, a grapple) won't get that +3.
Now take that knowledge and apply it to disarm's "if you don't use a weapon, you can auto-grab" rule. We know from above that:
1) Unarmed strike is a weapon, therefore using unarmed strike for the disarm won't get you the auto-grab
2) It is possible to perform a maneuver with no weapon at all, not even unarmed strike
3) Not using a weapon means not applying any weapon-specific bonuses to the maneuver
Therefore, if you have Weapon Focus (unarmed strike) and a +1 amulet of mighty fists, you have two options: you can use unarmed strike to disarm someone, gain a +2 to your CMB for the attempt, and watch the disarmed item fall to the ground; or you can perform the disarm weaponlessly, forego that +2 on your CMB, and auto-grab the disarmed item if you succeed.
If unarmed strikes count as weapons, it would never be possible to "disarm your opponent without using a weapon."
Yet clearly the intent is that you can do this with an unarmed strike, so could you also do it with a natural weapon?
You're missing some information. I'll fill you in:
Paizo Blog: Combat Maneuvers and Weapon Special Features
If you want exact quotes, I'll leave it to you to read it from that link, but here are the relevant parts:
First, by default, some maneuvers (disarm, trip and sunder) generally use a weapon. The rest (such as, say, grapple or steal or dirty trick or bull rush) don't use a weapon unless you have some kind of special exception.
Second, unarmed strikes (and natural attacks) count as weapons for this purpose.
Let me recap for emphasis: most maneuvers are performed without using a weapon, and unarmed strike is a weapon, therefore most maneuvers are performed without even using "unarmed strike".
Furthermore, this blog (and related FAQ entry) declare that the mechanical consequence of using/not using a weapon for a maneuver is that you do/don't get to apply weapon-specific bonuses to the attempt. For instance, having a +3 sword will add +3 to a combat maneuver check that uses it, but other maneuvers (like, say, a grapple) won't get that +3.
Now take that knowledge and apply it to disarm's "if you don't use a weapon, you can auto-grab" rule. We know from above that:
1) Unarmed strike is a weapon, therefore using unarmed strike for the disarm won't get you the auto-grab
2) It is possible to perform a maneuver with no weapon at all, not even unarmed strike
3) Not using a weapon means not applying any weapon-specific bonuses to the maneuver
Therefore, if you have Weapon Focus (unarmed strike) and a +1 amulet of mighty fists, you have two options: you can use unarmed strike to disarm someone, gain a +2 to...
Great, thanks, this is awesome news! That means a Maneuver Master with three natural attacks can:
1) Flurry to make a disarm attempt (using no weapon) at BAB - 1 (no penalty for being unarmed, +1 to CMB because monk level exceeds BAB, but -2 for flurrying) and steal the weapon if it is successful.
2a) If the disarm was successful, he can drop the weapon as a free action and make all three of his natural attacks at full BAB.
2b) If the first disarm was unsuccessful, he can make another disarm attempt with a claw attack at BAB - 1, but may not steal the weapon if successful. If the first claw fails to disarm, he may try again with the second claw, and then with the bite.
3) If disarm succeeds before he has made all four attacks, he can make the rest of his natural attacks at full BAB.
So, it's not quite as much cheese as I was hoping to squeak out (I was hoping the natural attacks could each steal the weapon,) but it does mean that he does have one chance per round to steal the weapon.
You can pick up a weapon from an opponent's square?
Natural attacks, unarmed attacks, and weapons are in a really weird state in the game. Lots of contradictory stuff everywhere.
This is how I see it working:
You're unarmed. You attempt to disarm.
If you're successful, you have two options:1) You knock the weapon out of the person's hand, and the weapon falls to the ground.
2) You've pulled the weapon out of the person's hand and are now holding it.
To put those two sentences in more visual terms, you can disarm either by:
1) Flicking or knocking the weapon out of their hands (you are armed and cannot keep the weapon)
2) Trying to grab the weapon away (-4 penalty and you keep the weapon in hand)
You're lumping the two together.
You can be armed but not use the weapon to disarm.
If I have a longsword in one hand, and my other hand is empty, I'm armed. If I then disarm someone using my empty hand, and gaining no weapon bonuses or effects, I'm still armed so there's no -4 penalty, but because I didn't use a weapon to disarm, I can automatically pick up the item.
I believe that using an unarmed strike or claw to disarm is the first situation, and you cannot keep the weapon. Not sure if that is what was intended, though.
I think the intent was probably along the lines of "If you use your empty bare hand(s) to disarm someone, you can snatch the item." In which case it should probably be as you suggested, if you use your hands, -4 and snatch, if not, no penalty but item falls.
i don't know if i am just being picky, but the way i read it when you disarm you knock the weapon/item to the ground and then if you are unarmed you can then pick that weapon up as a free action. so long as you have hands that would be capable of handling items you should be able to pick the weapon/item up regardless of weather or not you are considered armed via the rules. though i think that you would still cause an Aoo for your trouble.
so i would say yes to natural weapons being able to pick up an item so long as their claws could manipulate the use of items.