This came up in last weeks game so I tried doing some digging without much luck.
while engaged in combat, you can deliver touch attacks to friendlies without a roll, however if we wanted to voluntarily get hit by a "weapon," what part of your main AC (if any) is voluntarily ignored?
we were thinking something like dex, dodge, monk wisdom and AC increase, canny defense at least (because your not trying to avoid the strike).
still would have to get past enhancement, natural, armor, luck, misc magic
Thoughts?-
If you wish to voluntarily be hit by an attack, the person doesn't need to roll to hit you at all. You're hit. The rules for AC assume that you don't want to be hit, as is generally the case in combat. But if you want to be hit, then there is no need for any attack roll.
Eh, not really.
If someone is unconscious and on the ground, you should still roll an attack against them. It will be easy to hit them, as they are flat-footed and have an AC of zero. Missing is still a possibility.
If you let someone hit you, they might still just ding off your armor.
Or, to answer your question directly, it seems you could stand perfectly still and be flat footed with an effective dex of 0.
If you let someone hit you, they might still just ding off your armor.If you're letting a person hit you, why can't they aim precisely and hit an unarmored/unprotected area? Again, the AC rules for creatures assume that the creature is in some way moving, which means they simply don't have the time to aim precisely around your armor, because you're constantly moving/evading. They have to take their shot and hope that you don't reposition yourself in a way that makes your armor deflect the blow. If you are willing to be hit, this is no longer a factor. Armor is meaningless if they're letting you aim for a weak spot.
If someone is unconscious and on the ground, you should still roll an attack against them. It will be easy to hit them, as they are flat-footed and have an AC of zero. Missing is still a possibility.If a person is unconscious and on the ground, there's this thing called a Coup de Grace, which is not only an auto-hit (no need to roll), but also an auto-crit. A creature that cannot defend itself doesn't need to be rolled against, unless the situation is still too dire for you to take the time to line up your strike (for example, if you're still being threatened by another creature -- this is the reason why performing a Coup takes longer, and provokes AoO's).
The AC rules do not assume you are moving. They also cover attacking immobile objects and paralyzed creatures.
If someone is unconscious, you have the option of a coup de grace. You can also just attack them.
EDIT: My statements are supported by the rules for attacking the unconscious, the paralyzed, and objects. You are working off of assumptions.
If I missed a "you don't have to roll to hit stationary objects or paralyzed people" rule, let me know.
For instance, consider paralyzed:
Paralyzed: A paralyzed character is frozen in place and unable to move or act. A paralyzed character has effective Dexterity and Strength scores of 0 and is helpless, but can take purely mental actions. A winged creature flying in the air at the time that it becomes paralyzed cannot flap its wings and falls. A paralyzed swimmer can't swim and may drown. A creature can move through a space occupied by a paralyzed creature—ally or not. Each square occupied by a paralyzed creature, however, counts as 2 squares to move through.
A dexterity is still need to determine reflex saves and AC for attacks. They tell you the character now has a dexterity of 0 so you can recalculate those things.
The AC rules do not assume you are moving. They also cover attacking immobile objects and paralyzed creatures.No. Hitting an object is different than hitting a creature. Hitting a creature assumes the creature doesn't want to be hit. Hitting an object is different because the object doesn't have a choice. If you don't hit the object just right, you won't hurt it because the object has its own natural resilience to taking damage. Thus, and object has an AC to represent this -- however, you are capable of spending a full-round to line up your strike and auto-hit an object. (Still need to beat its hardness though).
The AC of an object takes into acount the same factors as a character. Dex (-5 modifier), size modifier, etc.,
If someone is unconscious, you have the option of a coup de grace. You can also just attack them.Missing the point here. Yes it's an option but it's an option that bypasses the attack roll, meaning an attack roll isn't always necessary.
So there is one situation in which you can obviously bypass an attack roll; I would not disagree with that. It is, however, a special full-round action and not a normal attack.
You are working off of assumptions.I'm working off of statements by the 3.5 devs for when attacks are or aren't needed, because these questions came up hundreds of times across the game's lifespan. PF copied and pasted the combat rules (except for the specific things that PF changed) over for the sake of backwards compatibility. Unless the PF devs give a statement to the converse, it still applies.
I am much more sympathetic to this argument than I think many on these boards will be. Can you cite this? What if a character has a high AC due to things like force effects and sacred bonuses (which require no effort on the part of the character to benefit from)?
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If a person is unconscious and on the ground, there's this thing called a Coup de Grace, which is not only an auto-hit (no need to roll), but also an auto-crit. A creature that cannot defend itself doesn't need to be rolled against, unless the situation is still too dire for you to take the time to line up your strike (for example, if you're still being threatened by another creature -- this is the reason why performing a Coup takes longer, and provokes AoO's).
This is the difference between taking a full round to hit someone and a standard attack to hit someone.
If you want to take a full round to hit a willing target, then no roll needed (but you do provoke AoO from nearby foes same with the coup de grace). But if you want to try to hit a willing target with one attack as either a standard or part of a multi-strike full attack, then I would say aim for their flat footed AC (as that takes into account armor and really nothing else).
Not RAW (as nothing is listed for this), but that would be my call as a GM.
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If a person wanted to get smashed with a treetrunk I'd say his AC would be reduced by the Base 10(I always thought of this as the active attempt to dodge incoming attacks), Dexterity, Dodge, insight, probably shield and anything else that is reliant upon yourself.
Armor, Sacred/profane, Deflection, and maybe others I can't really see you being able to control (without stripping the source). And since you're trying to get hit stepping into the attack would probable be like a Dexterity of 1.
But for the sake of simplicity, if a player wanted to get whalloped I'd raise an eyebrow and say ooooooookkkkkkaaaaaayyyyyyy!
If a person wanted to get smashed with a treetrunk I'd say his AC would be reduced by the Base 10(I always thought of this as the active attempt to dodge incoming attacks), Dexterity, Dodge, insight, probably shield and anything else that is reliant upon yourself.
The problem with thinking of the base AC 10 as attempting to dodge is that inanimate objects have this same base AC. A medium immobile object (or person) should be AC 5; Base AC 10 - 5 Dex mod.
Edit: Inanimate objects take an additional -2 penalty to their AC,
Why?
Why?
What?
Thanks for all the advice everyone :) I think were going to stick with the minus dex and dodge route. It's a weapon that heals when it hits friendlies x times per day (it compares to a cure mod, but it's a non touch attack).
It would be exceptionally useful as a coup de grace heal (for someone who had fallen already, since it would auto crit at a high multiplier) but the Fort DC 10+ damage-done (in this case no damage so just a base DC10) has a 1 in 20 change of an insta-death, which makes that option less viable for us. :)
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Thanks for all the advice everyone :) I think were going to stick with the minus dex and dodge route. It's a weapon that heals when it hits friendlies x times per day (it compares to a cure mod, but it's a non touch attack).
It would be exceptionally useful as a coup de grace heal (for someone who had fallen already, since it would auto crit at a high multiplier) but the Fort DC 10+ damage-done (in this case no damage so just a base DC10) has a 1 in 20 change of an insta-death, which makes that option less viable for us. :)
That's an interesting item. I'm going to put it in my ideas folder.
Where?When?Why?What?
How?
If I missed a "you don't have to roll to hit stationary objects or paralyzed people" rule, let me know.
There is such a rule for stationary objects if you use a full-round action to take aim
Furthermore, if you take a full-round action to line up a shot, you get an automatic hit with a melee weapon and a +5 bonus on attack rolls with a ranged weapon.
You get a bonus, so you have to roll...
How?Where?When?Why?What?
Whence?
whale cancer, you get a bonus to ranged, melee is automatic hit
As a full round action, not as an attack action. If you attack normally or attack as a full-round action with iterative attacks, you still need to make attacks rolls. That is the issue at hand.
But yeah, the point is, if you attack normally you have to roll and there are two (not just the one as I had said upthread) special full-round attack actions that allow an automatic melee hit.
If we are still trying to answer OP's question, and we accept attacking an immobile target as a baseline for attacking a willing target, using a full round action is probably suboptimal in most cases.
you asked for a rule that gives you automatic hits on stationary objects, which is what I cited... whether or not that applies to the OP is a different question (that I didn't try to answer)
I asked for a rule that said that you didn't need to roll to attack stationary or immobile targets. I asked for such a rule because the person I was responding to suggested attacks against such targets are auto-hits (as in, a standard attack would auto-hit).
You provided a rule that allows a special action to auto-hit such targets (and I had already acknowledged the coup de grace as a way to auto-hit, another such special action).
While it may seem like hair-splitting, the difference is quite important in the context of the thread.
Nothing allows you to auto hit with a weapon as far as I know. You auto crit with a coup de grace but not auto hit. There's always a 5% chance you roll a 1 on an attack and fail.
You auto-hit with a CDG.
Coup de Grace: As a full-round action, you can use a melee weapon to deliver a coup de grace (pronounced “coo day grahs”) to a helpless opponent. You can also use a bow or crossbow, provided you are adjacent to the target.
You automatically hit and score a critical hit. If the defender survives the damage, he must make a Fortitude save (DC 10 + damage dealt) or die. A rogue also gets her extra sneak attack damage against a helpless opponent when delivering a coup de grace.
Delivering a coup de grace provokes attacks of opportunity from threatening opponents.
You can't deliver a coup de grace against a creature that is immune to critical hits. You can deliver a coup de grace against a creature with total concealment, but doing this requires two consecutive full-round actions (one to “find” the creature once you've determined what square it's in, and one to deliver the coup de grace).
Nothing allows you to auto hit with a weapon as far as I know. You auto crit with a coup de grace but not auto hit. There's always a 5% chance you roll a 1 on an attack and fail.You auto-hit with a CDG.
Coup de Grace: As a full-round action, you can use a melee weapon to deliver a coup de grace (pronounced “coo day grahs”) to a helpless opponent. You can also use a bow or crossbow, provided you are adjacent to the target.
You automatically hit and score a critical hit. If the defender survives the damage, he must make a Fortitude save (DC 10 + damage dealt) or die. A rogue also gets her extra sneak attack damage against a helpless opponent when delivering a coup de grace.
Delivering a coup de grace provokes attacks of opportunity from threatening opponents.
You can't deliver a coup de grace against a creature that is immune to critical hits. You can deliver a coup de grace against a creature with total concealment, but doing this requires two consecutive full-round actions (one to “find” the creature once you've determined what square it's in, and one to deliver the coup de grace).
Perhaps Khrysaor is getting at the corner cases where some suggest abilities that trigger on a successful attack do not trigger on an automatic hit?
Perhaps Khrysaor is getting at the corner cases where some suggest abilities that trigger on a successful attack do not trigger on an automatic hit?
There's a difference between a successful attack and a hit?
There's a difference between a successful attack and a hit?
Perhaps Khrysaor is getting at the corner cases where some suggest abilities that trigger on a successful attack do not trigger on an automatic hit?
Perhaps the assumption is that without an attack roll, an attack hasn't been made.
Example: Invisible creature casts cure light wounds and automatically touches an ally. No attack roll has been made (you touch allies automatically) so the creature can remain invisible.
I don't really know how it's relevant to the thread, though.
Why?What?
Chicken butt.
There's a difference between a successful attack and a hit?
Perhaps Khrysaor is getting at the corner cases where some suggest abilities that trigger on a successful attack do not trigger on an automatic hit?Perhaps the assumption is that without an attack roll, an attack hasn't been made.
Example: Invisible creature casts cure light wounds and automatically touches an ally. No attack roll has been made (you touch allies automatically) so the creature can remain invisible.
I don't really know how it's relevant to the thread, though.
That's the only explanation I could think of for his distinction that a coup de grace "auto-crits" but not "auto-hits"...
I vote against the auto hit.
I'd like to chime in about range too. Take an extreme case where you want to be hit and someone 1000 ft. away fires an arrow from a longbow at you (-18 to hit for range). Just cause you want to be hit, doesn't mean that archer is going to hit you every time.
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I vote against the auto hit.
I'd like to chime in about range too. Take an extreme case where you want to be hit and someone 1000 ft. away fires an arrow from a longbow at you (-18 to hit for range). Just cause you want to be hit, doesn't mean that archer is going to hit you every time.
Take that same archer and make them an arcane archer, and have the arrow imbued with a good AoE spell that you do not mind hitting your friend with....
You could argue that it's easier to hit someone who wants to be hit, than someone that wants to be hit and isn't moving (Dex 0). What is that? Aiding the attacker to give them a +2 bonus to hit you, or something like that.