Goblin Squad Member
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Said in blood bowl chat:
<fangbanger> wuhan, now he's the luckiest SOB on the sight , he's good mind you, but nuffle has truly choseen him as his adopted son, thats a fact jack, but again he skirts the rules , but he's NOT a cheater
<Synn> lol
<Synn> so true
So I don't want to get a criminal or attacker flag. But I want to hamper an operation/organization.
What can I get away?
Stinking Cloud?
Obscuring mist?
Control Weather?
Deeper Darkness?
Earthquake?
Have my pet attack?
Have my summoned monster attack?
Have my charmed creature attack?
Have my paid mercenary attack?
Because what's wrong with paladins paying an assassins guild in favors???
Aren't those that say they want to do the most good, really just politicians?
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Goblin Squad Member
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Yeah, but in a sandbox world its what adds spice and pizzazz. If it's not a game breaker, why not let the players be inventive. When you have too many rules you inch toward the themepark side, imo. Besides, won't we the players be able to police our own to some extent, and won't there be mechanics in the game itself that will "know" when the line is crossed and smack you with faction hits?
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Goblin Squad Member
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Wuhan raises an axcellent point - how can a character be an antagonist in the game (creating roleplay and content) without automatically getting a flag of some kind. This is not griefing nor exploiting. It is called subtelty- something a Rogue thrives on.
I want to play a Rogue archetype, but I don't want to pick up a criminal flag simply by looking at someone sideways, and thus be at risk of having my head served up to me on a platter. I want to be that guy that operates from the shadows. The annoying antagonist. The guerilla force that sets fire to your crops in a war. The guy that lays a trail of coins right into the ogres lair just so he can loot your corpse. In other words, content - as adversarial as those examples are.
If you get a mandatory flag for 'being mean' to another character, I may as well take a fighter archetype and just be good at smashing things with a big hammer.
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Goblin Squad Member
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It is griefing/exploiting (as Carbunkle said). You shouldn't be able to ruin someone without taking any penalties to yourself. They aren't making an Alignment system just so you can figure out how to bypass it.
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All those things would be considered offensive if used as such (not to mention people probably can figure out, and then dock your reputation AND alignment if the system hasn't done so, and may do so even if it does.)
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A paladin hiring assassins to kill what? if it's evildoers, do you really need assassins? If it's other political members you don't like, that's evil (and quite possibly chaotic)
STOP TRYING TO SKIRT THE SYSTEM!
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Goblin Squad Member
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Wuhan raises an axcellent point - how can a character be an antagonist in the game (creating roleplay and content) without automatically getting a flag of some kind. This is not griefing nor exploiting. It is called subtelty- something a Rogue thrives on.
I want to play a Rogue archetype, but I don't want to pick up a criminal flag simply by looking at someone sideways, and thus be at risk of having my head served up to me on a platter. I want to be that guy that operates from the shadows. The annoying antagonist. The guerilla force that sets fire to your crops in a war. The guy that lays a trail of coins right into the ogres lair just so he can loot your corpse. In other words, content - as adversarial as those examples are.
If you get a mandatory flag for 'being mean' to another character, I may as well take a fighter archetype and just be good at smashing things with a big hammer.
setting fire to a food supply is not subtle, and very evil (you're starving children as well.)
If you are going to be antagonistic, you are going to have to accept the consequences.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Often times when 1 person wants to 'mess' with a larger organization. Guerrilla warfare is used. In mmo's it's called griefing.
Are you serious? Since when does guerilla warfare equate to griefing? If by "guerilla warfare" you are implying some kind of cheating, then ok, but otherwise...what???
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Goblin Squad Member
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I have no problems with taking an alignment hit, or indeed a reputation hit (if caught).
But does it make sense that a rogue picks a pocket from the shadows while moving silently and is completely undetected, and yet gets the criminal flag? Does it make sense that a character could sneak behind enemy lines, approach a completely unguarded field of corn and set it alight and escape back to his lines, yet get the criminal flag? Does it make sense that a character could leave a poisoned mug of ale sitting on a bar in the tavern that someone drinks and dies, yet the character who is now an hour gone and several miles away, gets the criminal and murderer flag?
Characters need to be wary of their surroundings, need to guard their assets, need to not let game mechanics do everything for them. This makes it more fun and exciting all round for everyone and makes it a true sandpit game. Not a game of 'someone did something I didn't see, hear or notice until I encountered an undesirable effect - but due to game mechanics I and everyone knows who they now are and can take holy vengeance upon them'.
These examples may indeed be 'skirting the system' as of right now. What I am advocating is that the system be made so that they are in fact not doing such and are a legitimate part of playing the game. Give the rogues and the stealthy, sneaky character something to do and add rich content to the game at the same time.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I probably should have mentioned, I think you should still be able to do these things and possibly get away with it as long as no one saw you. However, ultimately you should still have the alignment hit, regardless if anyone saw you. Sure they might not know you did it, but the cosmos will.
On that note, I believe I read somewhere it will be hard to figure out someone's alignment without abilities such as a Paladin's Detect Evil or Clerics' Detect [Whatever] spells.
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Goblin Squad Member
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When characters that can track/reveal rogues are present, then yes, rogues sneaking about doing things without getting 'flagged' is spicy.
When no one around can hope to find them, not so much.
Evil needs to be able to make good get up off the couch, while not making it all about pvp.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I probably should have mentioned, I think you should still be able to do these things and possibly get away with it as long as no one saw you. However, ultimately you should still have the alignment hit, regardless if anyone saw you. Sure they might not know you did it, but the cosmos will.
On that note, I believe I read somewhere it will be hard to figure out someone's alignment without abilities such as a Paladin's Detect Evil or Clerics' Detect [Whatever] spells.
Jiminy isn't talking about ALIGNMENT hits, he's talking about criminal FLAGGING.
One just gives you a new alignment, the other marks you as a criminal and so able to be killed with no (or fewer) repercussions.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I probably should have mentioned, I think you should still be able to do these things and possibly get away with it as long as no one saw you. However, ultimately you should still have the alignment hit, regardless if anyone saw you. Sure they might not know you did it, but the cosmos will.
On that note, I believe I read somewhere it will be hard to figure out someone's alignment without abilities such as a Paladin's Detect Evil or Clerics' Detect [Whatever] spells.
Absolutely agree with you. I'm more than happy to fall into the Chaotic (and maybe evil if using the poison or crop burning examples) alignment areas. I just want to be able to be a Rogue and cause mischief, have fun and create content for others, without getting a criminal/attacker/murderer flag each and every time (on the proviso I'm not caught in the act).
Being able to do all this without automatically being flagged a criminal also opens up the potential for someone to run a 'Thieves Guild' organisation. Get others to join for a small fee and offer protection of sorts to members if caught performing 'rogue' type action.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I probably should have mentioned, I think you should still be able to do these things and possibly get away with it as long as no one saw you. However, ultimately you should still have the alignment hit, regardless if anyone saw you. Sure they might not know you did it, but the cosmos will.
On that note, I believe I read somewhere it will be hard to figure out someone's alignment without abilities such as a Paladin's Detect Evil or Clerics' Detect [Whatever] spells.
Absolutely agree with you. I'm more than happy to fall into the Chaotic (and maybe evil if using the poison example) alignment areas. I just want to be able to be a Rogue and cause mischief, have fun and create content for others, without getting a criminal/attacker/murderer flag each and every time (on the proviso I'm not caught in the act).
Being able to do all this without automatically being flagged a criminal also opens up the potential for someone to run a 'Thieves Guild' organisation. Get others to join for a small fee and offer protection of sorts to members if caught performing 'rogue' type action.
IMO this is the way to go, as thief you should be able to use subterfuge and thievery. If caught then you must be willing to take whats coming to you. The alignment shift is a no brainer, that must happen.
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Goblin Squad Member
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what I imagine is:
a group of 3 players, find a resource to exploit. A gold mine.
I want the resource they are extracting...but I can't directly fight them for it...
Perhaps:
A: We have an alliance, and my is at peace with their kingdom. (but I intend war later.)
B: I don't want to fight them, because they will hand me my butt, and start a conflict.
C: They are guarding the mine, and I want to hamper their efforts to extract it.
D: I am good, and I don't want a criminal flag, but I have allies who can attack, but I want to support their efforts in some way.
Is there any reason I couldn't set up a few Glyphs of Warding in my favored area, then let my allies attack and then lead them to that spot?
"Who put this spike growth here? And what's with the deeper darkness?"
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Goblin Squad Member
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Every good story has conflict. You can't have an impressive hero unless he is in conflict with an equally impressive villain. Without evil, whatever is a paladin to do? If nobody else is bad, the good will become the bad because of their oppressive dedication to laws that are suddenly without purpose.
There is a better way forward than to eliminate the opposition by making their role impossible. The bad guys, after all, are the Paladin's bread and butter. Without them he might as well retire.
I have no problems with taking an alignment hit, or indeed a reputation hit (if caught).
But does it make sense that a rogue picks a pocket from the shadows while moving silently and is completely undetected, and yet gets the criminal flag? Does it make sense that a character could sneak behind enemy lines, approach a completely unguarded field of corn and set it alight and escape back to his lines, yet get the criminal flag? Does it make sense that a character could leave a poisoned mug of ale sitting on a bar in the tavern that someone drinks and dies, yet the character who is now an hour gone and several miles away, gets the criminal and murderer flag?
Characters need to be wary of their surroundings, need to guard their assets, need to not let game mechanics do everything for them. This makes it more fun and exciting all round for everyone and makes it a true sandpit game. Not a game of 'someone did something I didn't see, hear or notice until I encountered an undesirable effect - but due to game mechanics I and everyone knows who they now are and can take holy vengeance upon them'.
These examples may indeed be 'skirting the system' as of right now. What I am advocating is that the system be made so that they are in fact not doing such and are a legitimate part of playing the game. Give the rogues and the stealthy, sneaky character something to do and add rich content to the game at the same time.
I plan on playing a Thief as well. I really really hope that the path (class) won't be totally gimped like they are in pretty much every other game. It's working out the mechanics that'll be the toughest part. I guess that's one reason I'm so looking forward to PFO. With the Devs actually listening to the players we stand a chance to actually see a fun, viable Thief role character! Maybe even an Assassin! Wouldn't that be something.
How the game will register a thief being noticed performing some act, like picking pockets or whatever seems fairly difficult to implement, but if they make their roll, and the victim fails theirs, well the thief should at least get a few coins for their trouble. I would love to be so skilled that I could assassinate a target in the midst of a market and have no one notice who did it :p
Goblinworks Executive Founder
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I'm just going to say it. I hope you (or I hope the hypnotical you, assuming your just playing devils advocate here) and people like you get caught in the Devs multi-layer Griefing defenses and perma-banned. We don't need EVE Fantasy, not with it's f***** meta of backstabbing, two-facing, and general constant treachery.
Either play Evil like this all points toward or go play another game.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I'm just going to say it. I hope you (or I hope the hypnotical you, assuming your just playing devils advocate here) and people like you get caught in the Devs multi-layer Griefing defenses and perma-banned. We don't need EVE Fantasy, not with it's f***** meta of backstabbing, two-facing, and general constant treachery.
Either play Evil like this all points toward or go play another game.
So you want people to be evil/villains/miscreants, but have giant flags above their heads stating as much and allow anyone to take actions aagainst them with minimal repercussions?
So basically, no mysterious shadowy figure working in the background. No elusive thief that poses as an innocent crafter, no spies or undercover agents in organisations/guilds/kindoms, no subterfuge or backstabbing politicians working their way up. Everyone needs a flag to make things black or white.
Sounds very boring.
We may as well all just play LG or CE fighters and line up in trenches and have a go at one another.
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Goblin Squad Member
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if the developers are listening...
"I want 20 bear traps, 20,000 gallons of water + proximity trap,
1 bleeding walls haunt, and 1 great white shark. Crocodile also works."
I can have all this in my fortress right? Special order, just pay a little extra?
(And water proof halls, with slight incline, a removable plug and drain at the end...got to think about the clean up.)
I'm just going to say it. I hope you (or I hope the hypnotical you, assuming your just playing devils advocate here) and people like you get caught in the Devs multi-layer Griefing defenses and perma-banned. We don't need EVE Fantasy, not with it's f***** meta of backstabbing, two-facing, and general constant treachery.
Either play Evil like this all points toward or go play another game.
So you want people to be evil/villains/miscreants, but have giant flags above their heads stating as much and allow anyone to take actions aagainst them with minimal repercussions?
So basically, no mysterious shadowy figure working in the background. No elusive thief that poses as an innocent crafter, no spies or undercover agents in organisations/guilds/kindoms, no subterfuge or backstabbing politicians working their way up. Everyone needs a flag to make things black or white.
Sounds very boring.
We may as well all just play LG or CE fighters and line up in trenches and have a go at one another.
We could all just Que up for Capture the Flag. Such a riveting experience :p
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Goblin Squad Member
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I'm just going to say it. I hope you (or I hope the hypnotical you, assuming your just playing devils advocate here) and people like you get caught in the Devs multi-layer Griefing defenses and perma-banned. We don't need EVE Fantasy, not with it's f***** meta of backstabbing, two-facing, and general constant treachery.
Either play Evil like this all points toward or go play another game.
So you want people to be evil/villains/miscreants, but have giant flags above their heads stating as much and allow anyone to take actions aagainst them with minimal repercussions?
So basically, no mysterious shadowy figure working in the background. No elusive thief that poses as an innocent crafter, no spies or undercover agents in organisations/guilds/kindoms, no subterfuge or backstabbing politicians working their way up. Everyone needs a flag to make things black or white.
Sounds very boring.
We may as well all just play LG or CE fighters and line up in trenches and have a go at one another.
Sounds like he prefers scripted, AI guided evil. Real intelligence behind your opponents is too much for some people.
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Goblin Squad Member
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(And water proof halls, with slight incline, a removable plug and drain at the end...got to think about the clean up.)
A twin empowered disintegrate trap with maximize thrown in will leave very little mess to clean up.
Actually, forget that, just use a 9th level Imprisonment spell in your trap. Guaranteed no mess.
No complaints about effectiveness, but I prefer it to be "terrible and terrifying."
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Goblinworks Executive Founder
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So you want people to be evil/villains/miscreants, but have giant flags above their heads stating as much and allow anyone to take actions aagainst them with minimal repercussions?So basically, no mysterious shadowy figure working in the background. No elusive thief that poses as an innocent crafter, no spies or undercover agents in organisations/guilds/kindoms, no subterfuge or backstabbing politicians working their way up. Everyone needs a flag to make things black or white.
Sounds very boring.
We may as well all just play LG or CE fighters and line up in trenches and have a go at one another.
Yep, or at least have those giant alignment flags as detectible as they are in P&P (by spells) because otherwise you get meta like EVEs where convoluted Out-of-Game spying using shell characters is a common and accepted practice. Doing what has no equivalent in-game mechanic that can be "fought" against.
I am 100% against the use of this kind of Meta-Knowledge for intentional tactical gain. If someone wants to be a shadowy spy infiltrating the opposite organization, make that a skill and make a counter for it. Or are you afraid to play a spy in such a system where your toons true nature could be discovered with appropriate resources.
Use in-game methods to hide what the character is so in-game methods can be used to discover it. Don't bull s~+~ the system by creating a 100% Good aligned character as the spy plant for your Evil one. That is hard core cheating and abuse of the system. Ditto goes for the other way around, Evil flagged alts spying for "Good" mains.
There will be more then enough action without Meta game b%~*~~~& creating an atmosphere of inherent mistrust.
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Goblinworks Executive Founder
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Sounds like he prefers scripted, AI guided evil. Real intelligence behind your opponents is too much for some people.
No, I got tired of EVEs general b!*%%~@# making it impossible to form impromptu groups. Which is why I don't play EVE anymore. Forgetting that EVE does't have "Good and Evil" outside the Concord rating (which doesn't mean much) just about anyone can be an Alt ready to betray everyone at the drop of a hat.
I seriously hope the Devs and Mods of PFO crack down hard on those kinds of Meta-games.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Where did I say I wanted to use the meta-game? Where did I say I want to be 'good' and perform evil acts?
If I didn't state myself clearly enough, let me try again:
I want myself and others to be able to play a character that specializes in stealth and subtlety. Someone that can pick pockets and not automatically get the criminal flag unless caught. Someone that can commit themselves to war (directly or via contract) and harry the enemy by sneaking through enemy lines and setting fire to their crops and not automatically get the criminal flag unless caught. Someone that can spy from within a company or kingdom and not automatically get the criminal flag unless caught.
Sure, these acts may be chaotic and lead to an alignment shift. Others may even be evil (if it leads to harm) and lead to an alignment shift. I'm absolutely happy with that as a concept. There are spells and magical means of figuring that out and then taking actions against such a miscreant.
What I am railing against it the automatic flagging of a character when they perform a criminal or evil act if they are not seen or captured. Nothing metagame about it. I want to play a thief/rogue in game and not get flagged for simply scratching my butt.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@Dorje you're not discussing something game programers can actually control. Even if they provide in game ways of spying, what's going to stop the meta game spies?
The mistrust that results is also meta game, but that's the point for some people. Blurring the game mechanics with meta gaming becomes a game in and of itself. Players create their own game above and around the basic code. No matter how you code spying, it's always going to be a script determining the outcome, and playing with AI gets boring fast. Meta gaming actually brings the skill of the player into it so it's not all random outcomes based on grinding out some arbitrary skill, and for some people that is a pro.
For others, as we are seeing in this thread in delightfully colorful language, that is a con.
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Goblinworks Executive Founder
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Then ban them, that's a moderation mechanic of the game's meta. Simple as that. Account, credit card, and IP if need be. Outright remove such players from the pool entirely. Rarely is such meta play anything other then another tool for griefing.
I would challenge the Devs to look at actual ways to support in-game spying as part of their 'next gen' efforts.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Basically I want the ability to play someone like: Palpatine, Moriarty, Mr Hyde, Iago, Lex Luthor, Keyser Soze, hell...even Batman, without getting some flag that allows everyone in the game to know I commited a criminal act, even though I was in the middle of the woods and 10 miles from the nearest character.
Imagine if all these famous villains of literature/Hollywood were flagged as criminals on page one of the book or in minute one of their movie? Not a very engaging tale when the paladin rides in and kills them (with no repercussions mind you) and puts an end to the story.
We the players are creating the story here. We need these characters.
Then ban them, that's a moderation mechanic of the game's meta. Simple as that. Account, credit card, and IP if need be. Outright remove such players from the pool entirely. Rarely is such meta play anything other then another tool for griefing.
I would challenge the Devs to look at actual ways to support in-game spying as part of their 'next gen' efforts.
But how is what Jiminy is describing not part of an "in-game" type of scenario? He's not using an alt, nor is he joining a group to betray information. He's simply playing a role that should be available to play.
I think your talking about a separate issue. One that will happen to a degree unless the Devs are able to prevent it as CCP apparently doesn't care to try, or is unable to.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Basically I want the ability to play someone like: Palpatine, Moriarty, Mr Hyde, Iago, Lex Luthor, Keyser Soze, hell...even Batman, without getting some flag that allows everyone in the game to know I commited a criminal act, even though I was in the middle of the woods and 10 miles from the nearest character.
Imagine if all these famous villains of literature/Hollywood were flagged as criminals on page one of the book or in minute one of their movie? Not a very engaging tale when the paladin rides in and kills them (with no repercussions mind you) and puts an end to the story.
We the players are creating the story here. We need these characters.
Except none of those villains you mention are necessarily Evil, they are just criminals. Evil is a religious term. In Golarion (PfO), alignment is decided by your "fame/reputation" with the deities who shape the nature of the universe. This is also why your rogue not getting caught by the local law can still take an alignment hit for doing dirty deeds, they are always visible to any deity which might be looking their way.
I do agree unobserved crimes should not flag you criminal, but desecrating a LG shrine will still probably piss of the LG deity (and gain the favor of those opposing ones)...whether you think you were observed or not. Likewise, those actions which are inherently evil (evil magicks, murder, etc) or good (healing, good magicks, etc) should draw the attention of those deities upon whose domain your actions tread...no matter how good your stealth/disguise roll.
So, Jiminy...I 100% agree with you concerning criminal flags, not so much about alignment flags.
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Goblin Squad Member
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This is one of the (main) reasons alignment and crime systems are separate. I'm sure we'll have months discussing this in the crowdforging subforums.
What I would like a better grasp on is what the Devs want to achieve with the alignment and crime systems.
It seems the alignment system is partly there to generate factions for large-scale warfare, but the crime system is there to prevent griefing. Ie. conflict is good as long as it's on a large scale?
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Goblin Squad Member
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Except none of those villains you mention are necessarily Evil, they are just criminals. Evil is a religious term. In Golarion (PfO), alignment is decided by your "fame/reputation" with the deities who shape the nature of the universe. This is also why your rogue not getting caught by the local law can still take an alignment hit for doing dirty deeds, they are always visible to any deity which might be looking their way.
I do agree unobserved crimes should not flag you criminal, but desecrating a LG shrine will still probably piss of the LG deity (and gain the favor of those opposing ones)...whether you think you were observed or not. Likewise, those actions which are inherently evil (evil magicks, murder, etc) or good (healing, good magicks, etc) should draw the attention of those deities upon whose domain your actions tread...no matter how good your stealth/disguise roll.
So, Jiminy...I 100% agree with you concerning criminal flags, not so much about alignment flags.
This is what I want and what I am trying to convey. I made an unconscious error in my post above when I wrote 'flagging for an evil act'. I should have said 'taking an alignment hit when performing evil acts'.
I am completely unconcerned with alignment with my arguements/statements here. I simply want the criminal flag not automatically registering for acts that are not directly observed.
The irony is, I am potentially thinking of playing the 'good' type of rogue ala Batman, so will possibly even not bother with any of the examples I have given. Playing a little of the devils advocate I guess.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I hope they entertain the idea of making Evil playable without greifing... Like for player run towns you can choose to have slave labor (no cost but obviously Evil so maybe you could not host any good shrines) or pay a percentage of profits/taxes for labor (in which case would be good and thus no hosting evil shrines). *shrugs so many posibilites just don't want to be surrounded by carebears telling each other they smell like roses ---> Not playing an evil character but love all the colors of the rainbow ya dig?
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Goblin Squad Member
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Jiminy I've understood what you've been saying this whole time. Not sure what the confusion is about.
I would like to see more solid definitions on what would trigger a criminal flag as it won't only affect how rogues are played but how the members of unfriendly if not quite warring guilds can act toward one another.
In Shadowbane (full PvP) there were no criminal flags. The Thief class could stealth and pickpocket another player and the only thing they had to worry about was getting away before getting caught. Of course, that could be a challenge since there was a ranged class in the game that could detect stealthed characters and you could also pop out of stealth when you attempted a pick pocket.
Since there will be a criminal designation in PFO (partial PvP?) perhaps they could make different severities for the crime committed (and caught doing?) But then you'd need to think of other punishments besides death.
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Goblin Squad Member
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There's the Criminal flag, but there's also a Thief flag. Not much has been said about the latter, since most discussion has been about PvP. From what I gather so far, the Thief flag is given to you if you loot someone's corpse. I wonder if that can be extended to other thievery type acts, and I also wonder what the mechanics of that flag is. With the Criminal flag, you can be killed with little consequence. With the Thief flag, would shop keepers not sell to you? Would you not be welcome in settlements that knew that you were a thief? Would underground organizations be more welcoming to you, thus making it a viable choice for a character concept instead of just a penalty? Would there be wanted posters in many places warning players of your past?
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Goblin Squad Member
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I really don't think the mechanics of being evil are really well thought out in some of our minds. The game provides the ability of the player to be evil, whether lawful or chaotic or a mix of those just like it does Good. Playing an evil character has to somehow be viable. Yet what will that look like in the game?
Assume it is going to be simply unviable to outright murder a good player because of whatever mechanics the developer adopts. Assume their machine is actually effective. What then? How do you manage to be evil?
How do you manifest your evilness? This is about as challenging as expressing your goodness as a Paladin under the conditions projected as desirable by the developer. There has to be a way built into the game for an evil character to be evil.
Alignment 'hits' for evil actions aren't going to make the evil character more good: those seem like they would actually be buffs for the evil character.
I'm guessing that Evil characters will be able to interact amicably with evil beings like goblins and orcs, the same way that good characters interact with NPC humans, elves, and dwarves.
Maybe that is what formation combat will be: The evil formation might be an evil aligned character leading a pack of hobgoblins. The good formation might be a paladin leading a squad of men-at-arms. A Guild might be many formations each of which leads a multitude of appropriate NPC combattents.
But maybe not. Might easily be something else. But that still doesn't really inform me of how they envision an evil character to be evil in a world that does not permit murder and theft.
It has to be viable to play the foil for good aligned characters.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Then ban them, that's a moderation mechanic of the game's meta. Simple as that. Account, credit card, and IP if need be. Outright remove such players from the pool entirely. Rarely is such meta play anything other then another tool for griefing.
I would challenge the Devs to look at actual ways to support in-game spying as part of their 'next gen' efforts.
Ban them for creating player generated content? Tsk tsk. What you call b+*%%@$@, others call "intelligent" opposition.
Are you really saying meta game spying is so bad in Eve that they're stopping you from forming impromptu groups? That's kind of hard to believe.
And no matter what devs implement for in game spying, there will always be some out of game spying too. And how do you suggest they even learn about it? Provided they are foolish enough to start banning people for it...