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Also, no offense to paizo, but the Iconics kinda suck. They are great to have a general idea of what a barbarian, monk, etc. looks and feels like for new players or fleshing out NPCs but they ARE FAR from optimized at all.
thejeff: the NPC codex book has them at lvl 1,7,12 (or something like that) most of them have been uploaded to the PFSRD so if you look at say, barabarian, you will see a sidebar that has a link to the iconic barbarian.
For the them not being very optimized look at the VERY simple build that Nicos posted vs the base fighter to give yourself some sort of idea.
Also, no offense to paizo, but the Iconics kinda suck. They are great to have a general idea of what a barbarian, monk, etc. looks and feels like for new players or fleshing out NPCs but they ARE FAR from optimized at all.
They're not meant to be optimized—they're meant to be characters that are easy to pick up and play for new players and give a general idea of what barbarians, fighters, monks, wizards, etc. can do.
Liz Courts: Which is what I what I said...
Liz Courts: Which is what I what I said...
Pretty sure what she means is if they're fulfilling their purpose (Fighter/Wizard/Barbarian 101) then they don't suck...
True...I should have been more specific. They are not a good example of the full potential of the class and using them as an average benchmark to determine the effectiveness of any given strategy is a weak argument and should have little bearing to this style of discussion.
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True...I should have been more specific. They are not a good example of the full potential of the class and using them as an average benchmark to determine the effectiveness of any given strategy is a weak argument and should have little bearing to this style of discussion.
They are a good average benchmark. 90% of people out there don't read the forums, don't share optimization guides, and aren't math savvy. Not everybody has a character perfectly built and honed to the max.
If you use optimized characters as a "proof" that some mechanic is, or is not, broken, you are missing the shot for 90% of the customer base PCs. That you can build an optimized lorewarden with a +10 dueling weapon that can disarm solars and trip Titans doesn't help to the poor Bob The Average Pathfinder Player who is frustrated because his 18th level fighter with improved trip can't trip anything.
If you use optimized characters as a "proof" that some mechanic is, or is not, broken, you are missing the shot for 90% of the customer base PCs. That you can build an optimized lorewarden with a +10 dueling weapon that can disarm solars and trip Titans doesn't help to the poor Bob The Average Pathfinder Player who is frustrated because his 18th level fighter with improved trip can't trip anything.Ja, we are now at the opposite side of the spectrum, note however that the claim here is that it can be done, not that it is easy, reasonable or balanced. I partiulary would like to not need a dueling FG weapon for this.
EDIT: note that I am not using lore wardens here.
In a game that has Wish, everything can be done. That doing it is cost effective or reasonable, it's another thing.
However, I was not pointing at your OP here, but to Lord Prophet assertion. I think the iconics *should* be able to have at least *moderate* success chances. Iconics are basic characters, which are played by most people out there, specially new gamers. Even if they don't play exactly the Icon, they do play basic 2h barbarian, or TWF fighters, etc, with regular stuff.
And when one of those players who has built a fighter, get "improved trip" at level 16 to check how it goes, he should be able to *moderately* trip things. It shouldn't be a trip machine that autoflip every enemy in his path, but he should be able to trip *Someone*. And with a basic fighter stuff and improved trip (no duel weapon, no more feats, etc), you don't trip a shit.
You might want to clean up the language of your post. It'd be a shame if your whole thought was removed because a moderator saw you bypassing a profanity filter.
But grappling is also the combat maneuver that doesn't benefit from weapons, so toss all those weapon-specific bonuses out the window.Well, you could use the Dan Bong which gives you +2 to Grapple.
And with the -4 penalty for not having two free hands, you're only at a net -2!
Or did that ever get sorted out?
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I expect that performing maneuvers against fellow humanoids is pretty functional even at higher levels. I haven't crunched the math on it, but intuitively;
numbers
When making maneuvers against someone at a slower BAB progression, you'll be at an advantage, and as you get higher level, that advantage will increase. Monks may be an outlier here, they get some bonuses to maneuvers, but in general the high-BAB classes get more bonuses to add to CMB/D than others classes, widening the gap.
So in general, if you play Full BAB, you can do maneuvers against lesser-BAB classes based purely on numbers.
Gear - again, martial characters will collect a lot of relevant gear. Your gear and their gear should balance each other out, but only someone really interested in maneuvers will really go the extra mile, giving an edge.
Let's now take a peek at specific maneuvers:
Bull Rush, Drag, Reposition
Size isn't an obstacle. Some races (dwarves) receive some relevant bonuses, but nothing that can't be overcome if you really want to. Pushing people into pits may be an option, but at higher levels, anyone who can't cope with Create Pit just doesn't want to live. Pushing people around for the AoOs is certainly an option.
Trip
Some classes rate flying very highly (wizards, witches), against them it won't work. Maybe it's worth it against other martials, to prevent full attacks. Even they may be flying, because of the aforementioned pits; but probably only occasionally. Tripping them as the first part of a full attack, then AoO as they stand up, has potention that should be looked at.
Disarm
People with classes tend to have tools. Unfortunately the worth increases against classes that are harder to disarm (full BAB classes). Also, there are some pieces of gear (locked gauntlets, I think) that may make this impossible.
Sunder
If you get an adamantium weapon, it can be a good semi-last resort. It's no fun hacking your loot to bits, but against someone in too-tough armor or with a nasty weapon you're not specialized in - maybe worth it. Bonus points if you already know Sunder because you're into Spell Sunder. Also weigh the value of just hacking things to Broken, then repairing them with spells after looting.
Grapple
High stakes. If it works, it can absolutely crush someone, spoiling his entire strategy. By the numbers, possible. Even some really tough fighters can't do nearly as much if they don't have room to use a twohander.
The problem with Grapple is that it's the maybe most guarded-against maneuver. So many monsters try to grab you to swallow or constrict you or have tentacle intercourse, that any real adventurer or higher-level character has a Plan. Freedom of Movement, Grease, Shift, or several Domain powers can all free someone.
Dirty Trick
Much more reliable against humanoids than against monsters. Instead of worrying about kicking sand into the ooze's eyes or kicking the floating skull in the privates, you can do it to humanoids. Humanoids have lots of vulnerabilities, and there's less uncertainty about "would that work" that might make the GM say "no!".
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The verdict? Maneuvers are a real option against humanoids, but don't overdo it. Don't be a one-trick pony, but some maneuvers could be good in over half the fights.
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True...I should have been more specific. They are not a good example of the full potential of the class and using them as an average benchmark to determine the effectiveness of any given strategy is a weak argument and should have little bearing to this style of discussion.
Seriously?
Min/Maxing a character against an unoptimized opponent is about as useless and one-sided an experiment as can be.
What a joke... and I thought this topic could be interesting.
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But grappling is also the combat maneuver that doesn't benefit from weapons, so toss all those weapon-specific bonuses out the window.Well, you could use the Dan Bong which gives you +2 to Grapple.And with the -4 penalty for not having two free hands, you're only at a net -2!
Or did that ever get sorted out?
It's my interpretation that the Dan Bong needs to be errata'd to include the language from the Garrotte and the Mancatcher.
Garrote: You must make a grapple check (though you avoid the –4 penalty for not having two hands free) to successfully begin garroting your opponent.
Mancatcher: Make a touch attack to hit an opponent and a combat maneuver check to grapple him (without the –4 penalty for not having two hands free)...
I expect that performing maneuvers against fellow humanoids is pretty functional even at higher levels. I haven't crunched the math on it, but intuitively. . .
The math should back you up nicely. A standard race with class levels has HD equal to its class level and a CR equal to its class level -1. Most monsters have more HD than their CR, pushing up their CMB.
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True...I should have been more specific. They are not a good example of the full potential of the class and using them as an average benchmark to determine the effectiveness of any given strategy is a weak argument and should have little bearing to this style of discussion.Seriously?
Min/Maxing a character against an unoptimized opponent is about as useless and one-sided an experiment as can be.
What a joke... and I thought this topic could be interesting.
The vague character build that Nicos presented ( a couple of feats, 2 magic items and standard BAB) is FAR from Min/Maxing. And he presented that total CMB against equivalent opponents of the CR...so I really do not get your argument or the reason for your apparent attitude.
I only said that the Iconics really do not represent the full potential of a class and only serve as basic intro characters (who usually want to stay away from anything even remotely complicated anyways) and to flesh NPCs.