Armour makes it easier to flex and deflect the blow.
Shield makes it easier to absorb and deflect the blow.
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I think what i ultimately like about sword and board fighting are all the options I have in combat. I dont just "SWING BIG SORD AND CHOPPY CHOPPY!"
I added the throwing property to the shield I wield, so I can hurl it for a distraction/attack, then 2 hand the long sword.
I can shield bash and 1 hand wield the long sword.
I can have the longsword sheathed and still do solid hits with the shield.
Its a quickdraw shield, so I used this the other night on some gnolls...I had a bow out, dropped bow re-eqipped shield, used spiked gauntlet and shield and killed 2 of the gnolls that way.
There are just a lot of versatile options, and my AC is highest in the group before I smite...its pretty awesome.
There are only a few Shield feats that really help. Mostly though, it's that the game rewards offense over defense so the defensive benefits of a shield don't compare well to the offensive benefits of other options. Including TWF with shields.What more do you want? Fighters use feats to bolster offense, and you've got feats to bolster shield use. You even have archetypes to take it further. Just about any improvement over the status quo takes investment and it's not like Fighters are that lacking in the feat department.I really wish Sword and Board was more viable without the full time TWF. I'm not going to dispute historical use of Shields as weapons, but they really were designed and used primarily for defense.
It's a shame that isn't better supported by the rules.
In a game with fast natural healing, abundant magical healing, and Raise Dead spells, defending yourself will never be as important as killing off enemies. Also, unlike the real world where the greatest threat in battle is being struck by a weapon wielded by another human (or possibly stomped by a horse), in Pathfinder you have to worry about spells (shield doesn't help), and enemies like giants & dragons who are going to hit you so hard it won't matter if you're carrying a shield (i.e. attack bonus so high that the shield didn't help)! It kinda makes sense that shields aren't all that useful.
On the other hand, I'd love to see a really good set of feats (or class abilities, or gear, or spells) to make shields a bit better than they are now.
There are some abilities that allow shields to become useful against Spells.
Isn't there a Mundane Shield Property that makes them into a Ranged Weapon?
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Celebrian Elanesse is a level 1 sword & board fighter I am planning for PFS. At level 2 I plan on improved shield bash, level 3 is weapon focus (longsword), level 4 is weapon specialization. After that I am thinking about shield slam at 5, improved twf at 6 and power attack at 7.
She's not min-maxed for damage, but should combine a healthy AC, enough damage to threaten, and be able to contribute in non-combat situations.
Celebrian Elanesse is a level 1 sword & board fighter I am planning for PFS. At level 2 I plan on improved shield bash, level 3 is weapon focus (longsword), level 4 is weapon specialization. After that I am thinking about shield slam at 5, improved twf at 6 and power attack at 7.
She's not min-maxed for damage, but should combine a healthy AC, enough damage to threaten, and be able to contribute in non-combat situations.
Interesting Build...
In a game with fast natural healing, abundant magical healing, and Raise Dead spells, defending yourself will never be as important as killing off enemies. Also, unlike the real world where the greatest threat in battle is being struck by a weapon wielded by another human (or possibly stomped by a horse), in Pathfinder you have to worry about spells (shield doesn't help), and enemies like giants & dragons who are going to hit you so hard it won't matter if you're carrying a shield (i.e. attack bonus so high that the shield didn't help)! It kinda makes sense that shields aren't all that useful.Your argument is circular.
he posted three points to support his "shields arent all that useful" statement. how is that circular?
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The problem you have with that is that you wind up having to use so many feats twice (weapon focus, specialization) plus your weapon training feature isn't as leveraged.
If my focus was damage I might try to take those feats twice. Of course, if my focus was damage, I would not be doing sword & board.
Your argument is circular.
In a game with fast natural healing, abundant magical healing, and Raise Dead spells, defending yourself will never be as important as killing off enemies. Also, unlike the real world where the greatest threat in battle is being struck by a weapon wielded by another human (or possibly stomped by a horse), in Pathfinder you have to worry about spells (shield doesn't help), and enemies like giants & dragons who are going to hit you so hard it won't matter if you're carrying a shield (i.e. attack bonus so high that the shield didn't help)! It kinda makes sense that shields aren't all that useful.
I welcome you to disagree with me, but circular? Could you explain the circularity to me?
The core problem with Sword and Board and even TWF is how awesome THF is in comparison. Because BAB tends to progress at a faster rate than AC (in order to make iterative attacks more viable) hit mitigation via AC boosting is often seen as an inferior strategy to just going THF with a big killstick. TWF Sword and Board negates some of the problems with TWF (mediocre AC) and regular sword and board (mediocre damage). It's feat intensive but generally worthwhile.
Fighters have plenty of bonus feats, Paladins have great saves and smite already which helps boost damage, Rangers can avoid some of the issues with feat prerequisites. I'm less in favor of the Cleric TWF Sword and Board simply because it's so feat starved but I think it might work for a battle cleric. I really haven't played with a Cavalier or Inquisitor TWF Sword and Board.
If all you're going to measure is damage, than forget about talking anything other than two handed fighter. However the shield use give you damage options along with a shield bonus to AC, and whatever magical properties that might be tied to the shield itself.
If you are a class with a strong static bonus to damage like paladin or ranger, that 2nd set of attacks can outweigh the advantage of using a two-handed weapon.
First level high AC Falcata build:
Human Fighter
Str 18, Dex 16, Con 12, Int 10, Wis 10, Cha 8
Feats: Dodge, Shield Focus, Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Falcata)
Equipment: Scale Mail, Large Shield, Falcata
You have an AC of 22 (+5 Armor, +3 Shield, +3 Dex, +1 Dodge), and the facata is +5 to hit, 1d8+4 with a 19-20 x3 crit. With some Chakram (+4 to hit, 1d8+4 dam), You will be fine for most combat situations at first level. If you want, you could pick up Weapon Focus (Falcata) instead of shield focus, if you think a 21 AC is high enough.
Chakram the one Weapon Paizo FUBAR'd completely.
If you want to know why PM me.
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Projected builds for Celebrian Elanesse as she levels up in PFS
Not built for damage, but in any fight where AC matters, she'll have enough to avoid most opponents while hurting anything that try to ignore her.
The bow is by no means a primary weapon, but she can still use it if necessary. Consumables, such as potions of flying and wands, will be purchased with excess prestige. As such, they won't really impact wealth-by-level.
Projected builds for Celebrian Elanesse as she levels up in PFS
Not built for damage, but in any fight where AC matters, she'll have enough to avoid most opponents while hurting anything that try to ignore her.
The bow is by no means a primary weapon, but she can still use it if necessary. Consumables, such as potions of flying and wands, will be purchased with excess prestige. As such, they won't really impact wealth-by-level.
I might be missing something but how are you going to get Hellknight Plate?
And I have a Stat Block if you want it.
@sunbeam: Ezra Scarlet Acadia VI. Even in her base Fighter form she never uses Gloves Of Dueling. Especially since she needs things like Gloves Of Storing or Gauntlets of the Warmaster.
Personally I think sword+board is prefectly viable, but it takes alot of feats. Either as a ranger/fighter, pure fighter, or paladin.
Ranger 6/Fighter X is pretty good if you want to ignore Dex. You kind of need fighter simply because to get all the 'goodies' of shield bashing it does take alot of feats.
Paladin is a little differnt. S&B is kinda meh until high levels OR when smiting. TWF with smite evil is good no matter what you are hitting with.
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You've got the first fighter build in a while I haven't seen use the Gloves of Dueling.
Kind of refreshing, but there really is nothing else comparable if they fit your budget right now.
15,000 for gloves of dueling would make the gloves my most expensive piece of gear. I could do it, but would have to give up 2 AC and drop the admantine from my sword.
The admantine is no big deal. The 2 AC is huge. Going with the suggested attack values by CR, high BaB encounters with an APL of 12 to 14 should involve monsters with +21 to +23 to hit.
With my Build, the average high BaB CR 12 opponent will need a natural 20 to hit. The average high BaB CR 14 will need an 18. Dropping my AC by 2 will triple the average damage I take vs the CR 12 opponent and increase the average damage from the CR 14 opponent by 60%.
As I stated: I am not building for high DPR. I do still hit on a 5+ with my first round of attacks and 10+ on the second round vs the average CR 12 encounter and deal enough damage to ensure I am not ignored (barring meta-gaming by the DM). Even then, I will certainly take my AoO's against anything running past me.
Remember too, I can reposition most opponents whenever I hit them with my shield. This includes pushing them back on their turn if they provoke an AoO attempting to move past me.
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I might be missing something but how are you going to get Hellknight Plate?
Hellknight Armor is not restricted to the Hellknight prestige class. Members of other classes simply do not benefit from the special properties.
The special properties Hellknight Armor grants to Hellknights happen to exactly match the benefits of Armor Training, which I already have.
So you are basically paying more for Masterwork Full Plate than if you just bought Masterwork Full Plate...
Masterwork Full Plate has the same stats as Hellknight Plate...
And is 350GP cheaper...
And can be mocked up to look like anything you want.
I not saying call it Hellknight Armour I am saying just say your Full Plate looks like the picture.