Goblin Squad Member
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People sometimes limit themselves by their preconceptions. If you cannot imagine donating to a cause purely for the sake of that cause then you may have limited your ability to understand your world and the people therein.
Some contribute/donate to projects that may advance our international culture through electronic media.
I will likely never ever use the .pdfs. Probably will not open them. Or maybe I will since there is literary value in looking at scripts just as there is artistic value in a staged production based on that script.
Other hand I'd like to see a VR role-play environment done right for once. We have been trying to do it for thirty years and always the product ended up something else entirely.
Will the future be very shallow?
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People sometimes limit themselves by their preconceptions. If you cannot imagine donating to a cause purely for the sake of that cause then you may have limited your ability to understand your world and the people therein.
I'm sorry, but saying that to a perfect stranger who you don't know on the internet demonstrates that it might be you who have preconceptions about people. As it happens, even with my modest pay and student support, I make monthly donations to a number of non-profit organizations, representing a not insignificant portion of my income. This for no returns to me.
That comparison is also moot, because this is not a charity we're talking about. If all proceeds from Pathfinder Online were going to fund RPG books for kids suffering from terminal diseases, then it would be different.
And as I said, there is a fault in your line of thinking: the people contributing just for the PnP loot aren't doing it out of a sense of charity. They're doing it because their contribution gets them stuff. When I give 10€ a month to [insert non-profit organization here] I don't expect them to send me more than a "Thank You" note once a year. This is, quite obviously, not the same situation.
So, yeah. I can perfectly well understand charity, but this is not a charity. It's a fundraiser for a video game. Because of this, I'm thinking of the situation by way of the business sense behind raising funds for your product by appealing to a crowd who is not interested in your product.
EDIT: I'm not taking issue with the idea of contributing selflessly to a cause or a project. What I take issue with is the idea that somehow the people who are getting potentially increased returns for their donation in the form of RPG books and .pdfs are somehow doing it out of charity and with no consideration as to the rewards they get. Sure, there are exceptions, (like DJEternalDarkness, who seems like a pretty swell person) but as a rule the people who are actually saying that they're in just for the PnP loot are actually reaping rewards for their supposed charity. Thus making it not a charity, actually?
It seems like a significant cultural shift has happened when it is considered illogical for people to contribute to a project they may never actually use. It is as if people cannot wrap their minds around non-selfish motivations. Once, but it was long ago, people thought helping others out was a generally good thing to do. Now people are just bewildered unless everyone is only in it for whatever they can loot.
Not quite. 'Non-selfish motivations' implies some sort of common good hardly qualifies as unselfish. In fact, it's pretty centered on the self...
Though I agree on the cultural shift (for the bad). With all the needs in this world, for someone to put $5,000 towards this kickstarter....
Right now people are mostly backing this kickstarter because they want to play the MMO.really? my impression was that folks are mostly in it for the P&P loot. Judging from the comments in the kickstarter over xMas at least.Doesn't this, in the long run, actually run counter to the goals of GoblinWorks? They are getting contributions from people who are not actually interested in the product they are making. Up until now one could assume that everyone who's pitched in would be a potential future player and thus most certainly a future subscriber. By selling an only tangentially related product to fund their Kickstarter, there's likely to be many more contributors who are not interested in supporting the actual product when it comes out. Unlike the people who are in for the actual in-game benefits when the product finally ships, people who are shilling in just for the PnP stuff do not translate to potential surefire subscribers in the future.
That said, I'm not personally pitching in for this Kickstarter. The idea of a fantasy sandbox MMO appeals to me, but as of now this thing is still so up in the air that I can't justify contributing monetarily. I'm an instant gratification sort of guy and I've been burned on a number of Kickstarters that promised me product at a certain time only to push back their deadlines over and over again. I'd hate to become emotionally (and monetarily) invested in the potential of getting to play a fantasy sandbox that might see the light of day as early as one year of now. I'll probably check out PFO when it comes out.
I suspect a lot of other potential contributors feel the same way.
Well there are a few ways to look at this. From a Pathfinder TT aspect sure those that aren't interested in the MMO get a great value for their money. But by supporting this project they also advance TT gaming by getting the Pathfinder name out there to those who never tried PF TT. Heck I'm even thinking of trying to get people interested in the PnP game and I've not played PnP for 25 years. So that's a plus for that crowd. It also benefits Paizo who are connected with the MMO by bringing more potential customers to them.
Then there are those who will never play the MMO, but supported the Kickstater. Goblinworks doesn't lose by having them contribute but not subscribe because they won't be relying on subscriptions to survive. Post EE, or on release they will transition to FTP. They don't want the spike and drop type of income that most MMOs rely on to make money, they want a slow growth like Eve saw and is still seeing. So by having the PnP crowd support the project but not play the MMO, they aren't going to lose.
Then there are the people like Being and I. We have been playing online games since the early 1990's and have been let down again and again because we seek a challenge in a game and the gaming market has steadly transitioned toward a "hold your hand", "everybody wins" type of game that just isn't what we seek. Pathfinder Online has promised to have features that we have been seeking. Oh much can change between now and release, but we are optimistic enough to give Goblinworks a chance.
So from my view everybody wins here. Granted my view might be jaded by my desire for the Kickstarter to succeed and the project to develop as I (we) hope.
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Though I agree on the cultural shift (for the bad). With all the needs in this world, for someone to put $5,000 towards this kickstarter....
Why would this indicate a shift "for the bad"? You have no idea how much money such a backer already donates to the needs of the world, nor what percentage of that person's disposable income is represented by that $5000. Why shouldn't people do, or support, something they enjoy with part of their hard-earned money?
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Well there are a few ways to look at this. From a Pathfinder TT aspect sure those that aren't interested in the MMO get a great value for their money. But by supporting this project they also advance TT gaming by getting the Pathfinder name out there to those who never tried PF TT. Heck I'm...
You may be right. In fact, with an EVE-style staggered launch, they might not need that many subscribers to begin with. Still, the fact that the Kickstarter doesn't have that many individual yet may bode ill for the game in the long run. Of course all of this will remain to be seen, but all of the money for the P&P materials has to come from somewhere. With all the Megadungeons they need to print and artists and writers they have to pay for writing all the P&P material, without even mentioning all of the miniatures and .pdf packs that need to be distributed...
well, all of that money will have to come from somewhere. Either from Paizo's coffers or from the funds gathered via this Kickstarter.
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It seems like a significant cultural shift has happened when it is considered illogical for people to contribute to a project they may never actually use. It is as if people cannot wrap their minds around non-selfish motivations. Once, but it was long ago, people thought helping others out was a generally good thing to do. Now people are just bewildered unless everyone is only in it for whatever they can loot.
People sometimes limit themselves by their preconceptions. If you cannot imagine donating to a cause purely for the sake of that cause then you may have limited your ability to understand your world and the people therein.
I thought Goblinworks was a business offering a product. When did they become a charity case?
Goblinworks Executive Founder
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You may be right. In fact, with an EVE-style staggered launch, they might not need that many subscribers to begin with. Still, the fact that the Kickstarter doesn't have that many individual yet may bode ill for the game in the long run. Of course all of this will remain to be seen, but all of the money for the P&P materials has to come from somewhere. With all the Megadungeons they need to print and artists and writers they have to pay for writing all the P&P material, without even mentioning all of the miniatures and .pdf packs that need to be distributed...
well, all of that money will have to come from somewhere. Either from Paizo's coffers or from the funds gathered via this Kickstarter.
Maybe Goblinworks isn't actually *paying* for the PnP content but are instead getting a percentage of the final income, or conversely they are paying for the production but they then get a percentage of future sales.
The only reason I think there must be some sort of percentage system going on is it wouldn't make a lot of sense for GW to cover the burden of getting all the artists, authors, production, etc paid for and then Paizo selling the book later on their website (like they will be doing with Thronkeep). I would imagine there is some sort of agreement there that reduces the costs to GW or provides additional funds over time to GW.
I don't see this KS project happening. I'm well aware that KS projects don't follow the linear progression, but aside from the exponential growth during the first few days, it's been pretty linear so far. Since it reached $350,00 after 18 days, it doesn't appear that realistic that will acquire that much funding in just 6 days.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I don't see this KS project happening.
I do...
I wonder which of us will turn out to be right. Maybe we can make a game of it. A gentlemen's bet.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I don't see this KS project happening.I do...
I wonder which of us will turn out to be right. Maybe we can make a game of it. A gentlemen's bet.
If we're playing for Black Wolf's honour, I'm in!
You may be right. In fact, with an EVE-style staggered launch, they might not need that many subscribers to begin with. Still, the fact that the Kickstarter doesn't have that many individual yet may bode ill for the game in the long run. Of course all of this will remain to be seen, but all of the money for the P&P materials has to come from somewhere. With all the Megadungeons they need to print and artists and writers they have to pay for writing all the P&P material, without even mentioning all of the miniatures and .pdf packs that need to be distributed...
well, all of that money will have to come from somewhere. Either from Paizo's coffers or from the funds gathered via this Kickstarter.Maybe Goblinworks isn't actually *paying* for the PnP content but are instead getting a percentage of the final income, or conversely they are paying for the production but they then get a percentage of future sales.
The only reason I think there must be some sort of percentage system going on is it wouldn't make a lot of sense for GW to cover the burden of getting all the artists, authors, production, etc paid for and then Paizo selling the book later on their website (like they will be doing with Thronkeep). I would imagine there is some sort of agreement there that reduces the costs to GW or provides additional funds over time to GW.
Plus, after reading through the Paizo blogs I'm convinced that Lisa Stevens has worked out exactly how much of an investment Paizo has in the KS material and weighed the projected returns and has realized that Paizo will benefit from the MMO.
You may be right. In fact, with an EVE-style staggered launch, they might not need that many subscribers to begin with. Still, the fact that the Kickstarter doesn't have that many individual yet may bode ill for the game in the long run. Of course all of this will remain to be seen,
Well even though GW isn't counting on the spike and drop model for funding, it's going to happen anyway. Even horrid MMOs get crowds of people checking them out when they open to the public. Many flee back to Wow when Blizzard publishes another $60 carrot, so GW, and PFO will only benefit by their visiting and eventual departure. Thats how I see it.
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Goblin Squad Member
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At this point it needs to average about $50,000 per day remaining to succeed. That's pretty steep given performance thus far, but other kickstarters have done significantly better in their final days. I don't really have a good feel whether there is a vast pool of people out there waiting to jump in at the end, but I hope so.
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Goblin Squad Member
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At this point it needs to average about $50,000 per day remaining to succeed. That's pretty steep given performance thus far, but other kickstarters have done significantly better in their final days. I don't really have a good feel whether there is a vast pool of people out there waiting to jump in at the end, but I hope so.
Just remember the last 48 hours is where most kickstarters get at least 30% of their funding. A lot of people hit the remind me later button and then never check back till they get that 48 hour notice by email.
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Goblinworks Executive Founder
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It would be nice if we could position ourselves where we only had 10-20% funding required in the last 48 hours so we could easily attain and hopefully exceed the mark :)
At this point I think it will be a close call (we are just shy of only having 30% left to fund) but I think we'll make it.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I'm sorry, but saying that to a perfect stranger who you don't know on the internet demonstrates that it might be you who have preconceptions about people. As it happens, even with my modest pay and student support, I make monthly donations to a number of non-profit organizations, representing a not insignificant portion of my income. This for no returns to me.People sometimes limit themselves by their preconceptions. If you cannot imagine donating to a cause purely for the sake of that cause then you may have limited your ability to understand your world and the people therein.
You may have taken it personally, but observing what people generally do is not something aimed specifically. If you took it like that, then maybe you should.
When I did address you personally it was with a conditional. The funding for Goblinworks is not only for goblinworks but also for what goblinworks is attempting to do, and that thing may well also advance other interests than Gobinworks' alone.
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Goblin Squad Member
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It seems like a significant cultural shift has happened when it is considered illogical for people to contribute to a project they may never actually use. It is as if people cannot wrap their minds around non-selfish motivations. Once, but it was long ago, people thought helping others out was a generally good thing to do. Now people are just bewildered unless everyone is only in it for whatever they can loot.People sometimes limit themselves by their preconceptions. If you cannot imagine donating to a cause purely for the sake of that cause then you may have limited your ability to understand your world and the people therein.I thought Goblinworks was a business offering a product. When did they become a charity case?
I don't thnk they are a charity case at all. I'd like to help them build what could be a significant cultural artifact. I think there is more involved in their product than just the product. You may think it is only a product but that is a limitation of your perception.
I see potential cultural effects for people of several nations. We may between us find social equilibrium using that product as part of its medium and further develop an emergent transnational identity.
That is pretty far removed from calling it a charity.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Then there are the people like Being and I...
That was well said, Val.
For me though there is yet more to it even than seeing an opportunity for a game to be made right, in my evaluation of rightness.
There is much more possible that may key on certain online mediums, to include multiplayer games.
Then there are the people like Being and I...That was well said, Val.
For me though there is yet more to it even than seeing an opportunity for a game to be made right, in my evaluation of rightness.
There is much more possible that may key on certain online mediums, to include multiplayer games.
Yes, reading what you wrote above I realize your taking a much longer, deeper view then "just a video game". Having a sense of your character from other threads that doesn't surprise me in the least :).
It's good that we don't have to contend with 5000 Wowkiddies posting their juvenile leanings (yet) eh?
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Goblin Squad Member
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Those 5000 will become adults, many as thoughtful as you or me. What they encounter, how they come to understand the people of other cultures, and see the world through a shared perspective could be pretty important. Far more significant than whether I get my way on the Alignment thing as an example.
When you get to the point where you cannot deny that your time is drawing to a close, the greatr portion of your life is in the past, and you recognize that of all the good you could have done so many opportunities were missed, then values shift: things that were once hardly thought become significant, and the odds against a wonderful thing happening are not as daunting as they once were, so long as the opportunity remains.
Those 5000 will become adults, many as thoughtful as you or me. What they encounter, how they come to understand the people of other cultures, and see the world through a shared perspective could be pretty important. Far more significant than whether I get my way on the Alignment thing as an example.
When you get to the point where you cannot deny that your time is drawing to a close, the greatr portion of your life is in the past, and you recognize that of all the good you could have done so many opportunities were missed, then values shift: things that were once hardly thought become significant, and the odds against a wonderful thing happening are not as daunting as they once were, so long as the opportunity remains.
True true. I'm wrestling with many realizations. Without getting into detail, I'm certainly coming to the point where my actions, reactions and such have much more meaning then they would have even a year ago. Bugger all on forced realizations! Heh.
My off topicness is showing again. Back I say Back!
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I'm sorry, but saying that to a perfect stranger who you don't know on the internet demonstrates that it might be you who have preconceptions about people. As it happens, even with my modest pay and student support, I make monthly donations to a number of non-profit organizations, representing a not insignificant portion of my income. This for no returns to me.People sometimes limit themselves by their preconceptions. If you cannot imagine donating to a cause purely for the sake of that cause then you may have limited your ability to understand your world and the people therein.
You may have taken it personally, but observing what people generally do is not something aimed specifically. If you took it like that, then maybe you should.
When I did address you personally it was with a conditional. The funding for Goblinworks is not only for goblinworks but also for what goblinworks is attempting to do, and that thing may well also advance other interests than Gobinworks' alone.
I did take it a bit personally, since it just felt like an accusation on your part that I can't conceive of the idea of doing something good for no personal gain, as I have plenty of experience of such on not only my part but from many people I see in my daily life. Still, I feel that it is a bit strange to attach such lofty goals as you have to what is simply a video game, although a pretty ambitious one at that.
Related to what Valandur said, you're right: Lisa Stevens is a shrewd business woman and I have faith in her business sense. If anyone, she should understand the potential risks and rewards in funding a video game project as ambitious as this. For the sake of Paizo and the RPG industry in general, I hope PFO does succeed either with or without the help of this Kickstarter, because while I think the RPG industry is doing pretty well at the moment the last thing it needs is for one of the companies playing in the big leagues to get hurt by an over-ambitious video game project, one of the consequences of which could well be a decreased interest in licensed tabletop-to-video-game properties in general.
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Goblin Squad Member
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This looks better and better!
http://www.kicktraq.com/projects/1675907842/pathfinder-online-a-fantasy-san dbox-mmo/#chart-exp-projection
The projection was at a High of 800.000-ish $ a couple of days ago and now it's at 960.000-ish $.
the interesting bit is: Projection is between 75% to 96%
but it's trending to 73%does not compute ;-)
Google "swgemu".As far as why this gameplay style is attractive, people need look no further then Eve Online, Ultima Online, and pre new game enhancements Star Wars Galaxies.Does anyone know of places where a lot of former SWG players hang out? Having their game yanked out from under them and turned into EverQuest-with-laser-swords might still burn enough to motivate them into investigating PFO enough to really 'grok' it.
SWGEMU is pretty hit and miss. i see new activity on the forums there today, i might drop a line or too on the KS.
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Goblin Squad Member
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...Still, I feel that it is a bit strange to attach such lofty goals as you have to what is simply a video game, although a pretty ambitious one at that.
...
You have heard of the adage "familiarity breeds contempt"? When things are familiar to people, the people tend to underestimate its significance. To his own mother the very great man will still be her little boy. When we author something we tend to think less of it than if it had been penned by some stranger long ago. Yet that thing you wrote might be a work of great merit. The little boy his mother sees may really be a great man.
Similarly we are not well positioned to evaluate the real merit of the things our present cultures produce. That evaluation will not be really reliable until another time. But these simple video games might be not-so-simple as we think. Their accomplishments may be far more significant than they now appear. We just do not know.But I can tell you this: Games similar to D&D drove mankind's artistic expression in a wholly new direction embodying one of the very oldest most universal human arts, Story Telling, in a medium that is in itself remarkable.
Had it not been for these simple video games, computers might only be used for spreadsheets and word processing. But we had military miniatures games, and from those Gygax, et alia, devised a system for fantasy. The rules became so detailed many wished for a way to make those rules managable, so the rulesbooks and dice might get out of the way of the tale, yet retain the unexpectedness and delight of discovery that all those apparati enabled.
The MMO/video game industry now rivals Movies, and I believe it will eclipse movies. These simple video games provide a context and a medium through which disparate nations are already engaging with each other in real-time across an entire world.
Believe it or not these simple video games and related tech are triggering change in your world. Fast.
Someday, when you are as old as I am, I invite you to pause a moment and look around you. Ask yourself how we got to that point, so changed from what you knew when your were a younger man.
Realize that an Old Being may have had a pretty good point.
This is not idle fancy, it is observation.
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Goblin Squad Member
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That's true I speak to someone who remembers all of the 2nd WW and before it even, regularly; so weird to think they have those memories of those real events and it seems to me that reality feels more real than the current day and age of said person.
Didn't James Cameron mention an interest in mmorpgs? Still the genre is littered with the failed projects, not an easy undertaking!
looks like someone already tried to plug the kickstarter for pfo with no results at the swgemy forums here
i posted a reply to that same thread. on a side note SWGEMU hates for anyone to solicit funds for other games or kickstarter on their website.
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Goblin Squad Member
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It seems like a significant cultural shift has happened when it is considered illogical for people to contribute to a project they may never actually use. It is as if people cannot wrap their minds around non-selfish motivations. Once, but it was long ago, people thought helping others out was a generally good thing to do. Now people are just bewildered unless everyone is only in it for whatever they can loot.People sometimes limit themselves by their preconceptions. If you cannot imagine donating to a cause purely for the sake of that cause then you may have limited your ability to understand your world and the people therein.I thought Goblinworks was a business offering a product. When did they become a charity case?I don't thnk they are a charity case at all. I'd like to help them build what could be a significant cultural artifact. I think there is more involved in their product than just the product. You may think it is only a product but that is a limitation of your perception.
I see potential cultural effects for people of several nations. We may between us find social equilibrium using that product as part of its medium and further develop an emergent transnational identity.
That is pretty far removed from calling it a charity.
I'm not sure if you are naive or an optimist.
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Goblin Squad Member
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This suspense is just horrible. I am so strongly in favor of many of the proposed design choices for this MMO that I am having trouble fathoming where the rest of the support is. I have backed only a handful of Kickstarter projects so far, and this would be the first to fail (should it), but this project is simply more meaningful than others I've seen succeed.
I hope we are not left asking 'what now' when the clock runs out. I was so psyched at securing a spot in the beta (a spot which really isn't secure yet, and may not be). Sorry for venting, but I just have my fingers crossed.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Fulcrum, the Tech Demo that was created with the first Kickstarter was good enough to attain the funding they needed to make the game. This Kickstarter is being used as a way of speeding of development, while making the game better at the same time.
Honestly, I am not even worried about it. I think the Kickstarter will make it. And in the (what I see as unlikely) event it doesn't, we're talking about Lisa freaking Stevens. She's a pro at this stuff; she'll have a contingency plan and then some. I want in the Early Enrollment just as bad as the next guy, but if this Kickstarter doesn't work out, there'll be other chances for us to get in.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Fulcrum,
I agree. If I had to wager a guess at the beginning of the KS, I would have said we'd be well past $1M and be talking about $2 or $3M stretch goals right now. This project is so important to MMORPG's, and with how popular they are, I'd think this project would receive tremendous backing. I'm baffled that we're only at $650K.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@Tyveil -
There's a host of reasons it's more challenging as a KS. For simplicity just reverse what mmorpgs usually do: Huge marketing budget, CGI trailer, huge hype for years of dev --> 00,000's of players.
That apart from the saturated Themepark market, risk in "early orders" & festive lull (& 2nd KS) all definitely reduce the galvanising of Crowdfunding in this case imo. Smedley of SOE just has to say "EQ:N + Sandbox-Style" and gains more coverage, casual interest and discussion x10 what PfO has!!
Beta with freedom and good community will generate interest via positive word of mouth. But getting to that point is v important. I think PfO will pip it's goal atm - anything else is above expectation.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Fulcrum,
I agree. If I had to wager a guess at the beginning of the KS, I would have said we'd be well past $1M and be talking about $2 or $3M stretch goals right now. This project is so important to MMORPG's, and with how popular they are, I'd think this project would receive tremendous backing. I'm baffled that we're only at $650K.
Whereas I'm surprised we've broken 500K at this point; even though in the long run I've always expected the project to succeed...although just barely.
One way to run a Kickstarter is to lay out all of your rewards at the start and then add stretch goals as you reach certain levels. The way GW has done things is to continually throw add-ons against the wall to see if any of them stick. The result of this is a fairly busy and somewhat confusing front page; easy enough to translate for those of us who have been regularly following the project but perhaps quite daunting for someone just stumbling onto the project during this final week.
And in the tradition of add-on ad nauseum I expect at the very least one more Hail Mary pass as we approach the final weekend.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Kickstarter is seeing a slow down of pledges for a time now. Seems that only so much money if floating around.
That said I'd say that the KS for PFO is doing ok, I am confident that GoWo will raise the missing money, just like Shadowrun did, in the last few hours.
And yes, this project is a bit on the complicated side but many are. For some projects there are calculators that show you what you can gain for each pledge.
