Debuff / SoS vs all / majority of enemies?

[Ender730]

I've been looking up debuffer/SoS builds, and I keep running into builds that emphasize things like Ill Omen and other mind-affecting spells/hexes. With so many creatures immune to them, what are some builds focusing on debuffs that affect all creatures?

A few that I can think of:
-Cleric's Chaos domain gives Touch of Chaos (no save, requires touch attack), making enemies re-roll all d20 and take the worse roll, but this only lasts one round, so unless you have a Quicken Spell or some other way to take advantage of it, it "only" helps your party.
-Cleric's Chaos with Protean subdomain gives Aura of Chaos (Will save can still be funny), which makes enemies have to do what they say they'll do if they make the save, and they can't do it if they fail the save (if your opponent isn't sure they can make the save or not, it'll be funny watching them try to figure out what they say they'll do).
-Cleric's Madness domain gives Vision of Madness (no save, requires touch attack), making enemies take penalty to their attacks and saves equal to 1/2 your cleric level (they get that same number as a bonus to skill checks).
-Wizard with the Void school gives enemies a penalty (no save) to their saves and AC equal to 1/2 your Wizard level.

Some that I can think of that does have a save, but can at least work on everyone/most enemies:
-The Witch's Misfortune hex affects everyone (Will negates), making them re-roll for all d20 rolls. Can be indefinitely prolonged with Cackle.
-Bestow Curse (Will negates) spell, can give them various debuffs, including -4 to saves, or 50% chance to take no action.
-Major Curse (Will negates) spell, same as Bestow Curse but helps you with +5 to your DC on the spell.
-The Maze spell could theoretically be included in this list I guess, no save, though they get an Intelligence check every round to negate it.
-The "pit" line of spells (Create Pit, etc.) can also work, but only against creatures that can fit in a 10x10 pit.
-Dazing Spell metamagic is pretty nasty (Fort, Will, Ref negates, depending on the spell you choose). Steep price at +3 spell level, and also expensive to have a rod of.

I imagine there's a lot more that I'm missing.

[Fromper]

I recently asked something similar, but bard-specific. If a bard wants to focus on using bardic spells/abilities against enemies instead of using weapons in battle, then what can they do against stuff without minds? All the bard's abilities are mind affecting.

The best I could come up with was to carry a crossbow, holy water, and alchemist's fire as my backup plan.

[Ender730]

Fromper wrote:

I recently asked something similar, but bard-specific. If a bard wants to focus on using bardic spells/abilities against enemies instead of using weapons in battle, then what can they do against stuff without minds? All the bard's abilities are mind affecting.

The best I could come up with was to carry a crossbow, holy water, and alchemist's fire as my backup plan.

It blows, doesn't it?

[Blueluck]

Ender730 wrote:

I've been looking up debuffer/SoS builds. . .

The spellcaster classes each have access to a wide variety of spells. If you limit yourself to a single type of spell, you'll inevitably find your choices lacking. I suggest trying to always have a variety among your highest two spell levels, ideally including one of each type:

• Will save or lose - Sleep, Dominate, Hold Person
  
• Fort save or lose - Blindness, Contagion
  
• Reflex save or lose - Pit spells
  
• Damage - Magic Missile, Scorching Ray, Fireball
  
• Indirect (no save or SR) - Summon Monster, Haste, Walls

Depending on class and level, not all of those categories will have good options available, and there are certainly good spells that don't fall into those groups. But, by having a variety of tactics, you'll always have something valuable to contribute.

[AndIMustMask]

stinking cloud (AoE movable? sicken) is a favorite of a friend of mine, as is black tentacles (AoE grappled condition, damage, etc.)

[lemeres]

Wouldn't black tentacles be countered by a freedom of movement effect? Besides spells and rings, some creatures have it as a constant effect.

[Fromper]

Blueluck, while I agree with you on most full caster classes, it's not always that simple.

Specifically for this thread, I agree that trying to do all Save or Suck spells is kinda silly. Most casting classes have a variety of spell types, and you'll have to balance them out to be useful in a variety of situations, instead of focusing entirely on just one type. As an example, I have a Fey bloodline sorcerer, who focuses on enchantment spells, but I also make a point of taking a blasting spell at every spell level as a backup plan against things that are immune to the enchantments.

But as I mentioned above, I started a thread asking for advice on making a bard who doesn't focus on weapon fighting, and didn't get any good answers. I want to go high cha and int for spellcasting and bardic knowledge, avoid archetypes that completely redefine the class as a weapon fighter (though I might consider less invasive archetypes that keep most of the core class intact), and maybe get some feats to be better at doing "bardic" types of things, like Taunt, Antagonize, and Breadth of Experience. That doesn't leave a lot of stat points or feats available to invest in being any good at weapon combat. But it seems like my backup plan for things without minds is going to have to be weapon combat, anyway, because there just aren't many other options.

[Blueluck]

Fromper wrote:

Blueluck, while I agree with you on most full caster classes, it's not always that simple.

Specifically for this thread, I agree that trying to do all Save or Suck spells is kinda silly. Most casting classes have a variety of spell types, and you'll have to balance them out to be useful in a variety of situations, instead of focusing entirely on just one type. As an example, I have a Fey bloodline sorcerer, who focuses on enchantment spells, but I also make a point of taking a blasting spell at every spell level as a backup plan against things that are immune to the enchantments.

But as I mentioned above, I started a thread asking for advice on making a bard who doesn't focus on weapon fighting, and didn't get any good answers. I want to go high cha and int for spellcasting and bardic knowledge, avoid archetypes that completely redefine the class as a weapon fighter (though I might consider less invasive archetypes that keep most of the core class intact), and maybe get some feats to be better at doing "bardic" types of things, like Taunt, Antagonize, and Breadth of Experience. That doesn't leave a lot of stat points or feats available to invest in being any good at weapon combat. But it seems like my backup plan for things without minds is going to have to be weapon combat, anyway, because there just aren't many other options.

Well, yes, of course, I would give your bard question a completely different answer than I gave here.