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Am I understanding this correctly?
Hypothetical situation: I have six wolves, surrounding a PC. Five wolves ready an action to aid another if the PC attacks. The sixth wolf attacks the PC (with a +2 flanking bonus). The PC attempts to retaliate, and attacks a wolf, causing all the readied actions to trigger. They pretty reliably hit the AC10 (do they get the +2 flanking bonus on this?) granting the wolf attacked a +10 to AC. The five wolves initiative resets to immediately before the PC's turn. Now the PC rolls to hit the wolf, suddenly AC24, and pretty reliably misses. Lather, rinse, repeat.
im confused.
the wolves are readying to aid the pack leader?
the pack leader is readying to attack when the PC attacks?
or are the 5 readying to aid the pack leaders defense when attacked by the PC raising the wolfs AC?
and whos flanking bonus are you worried about?
note.. Yes the wolves AC will now be set to just before the PCs action.
Blue I think the following is occuring:
Step 1: 5 wolves ready to aid another, AC option (frankly, no reason to ready but ok).
Step 2: 1 wolf attacks PC.
Step 3: PC attacks the '1 wolf'.
Step 4: 5 wolves aid another actions kick in. AC on 'wolf 1'. Assuming all succeed 'wolf 1' AC goes up by 10points.
Step 5: PC completes the attack on '1 wolf'.
Ultimately there is no problem with the mechanics but there are a couple of points to consider:
1) Wolves should not aid another for the purpose of defense. I would personally consider that to be a bit beyond them. Things not beyond them would be aid another to attack or readied actions to attack.
2) Readied actions to aid another is not really required. They can do that on their initiative before the PC attacks.
- Gauss
wait... I think I am getting it now...
so the wolves ready to aid the defense of any other wolf the PC attacks.
the alpha atacks the PC
the PC attacks a wolf
the other wolves trigger and aid the Defense of the wolf that is being attacked.
...
is that it?
If thats the case:
Yes I think that each of the wolves aiding the attacked wolf would give him +2 to AC.
No I dont believe they get the flank bonus as they are not making an attack against any flanked thing, its just essentially a skill check.
having said that...
I dont think average wolves are smart enough to aid each other in that way, they may aid in the attack but I dont think they would aid in a reactive defense... thats pretty heavy planning.
I would not allow players or monsters to use such a vague ready.
a player can cay I ready an action to defend this specific person if he is attacked but not I ready an action to defend any of my 5 friends if they are attacked, if thats how I run it for players thats how I run it for monsters. but things may be different in your game just putting the idea out there.
LOL. gauss I wrote my second post at the same time you were writing yours. its funny our answers are very similar without seeing each others responses.
I think he knows that he can aid another as a standard on the wolf turn... but he is not sure the PC will attack the wolf that attacks him so he wants to leave it open till the player has committed to attacking a specific one.
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Step 1: 5 wolves ready to aid another, AC option (frankly, no reason to ready but ok).
I think the idea as blue suggested is that if you ready to aid the first wolf to be attacked, you can aid any wolf. If you use your action to aid another, you have to pick which wolf you are assisting, and if the PC attacks a different wolf your aid is meaningless.
I'm also a bit reluctant to allow such a general readied action, since it makes readying an action to aid strictly better in all circumstances than simply aiding another. Maybe if you readied an action to assist the first ally to be attacked by a specific enemy (presumably in this case the flanked PC).
I also wouldn't describe this as a believable tactic for wolves to use. Flanking and combining trip with attacks on a prone character is more realistic, possibly aiding on a trip if they're finding the opponent difficult to trip.
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Yes. My mental image of what was occurring, is that wolves 2 through 6 are harrying and nipping at the PC, making it difficult for him to make an attack without leaving himself open to retaliation. The PC has to constantly watch his back, and worry about which wolf is actually committing to make the strike. Wolf 1 makes a cautious strike, hoping to trip the PC and basically end the fight.
Your last description fits with how wolves attack in real life, but the ready/aid defense is beyond normal wolves or dire wolves. But a pack of wargs or winter wolves are smart enough to use such complex tactics. Aiding for attacks/trips would be fine though for normal wolves. Or readying an attack if one of the pack is attack would work as well.
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Your last description fits with how wolves attack in real life, but the ready/aid defense is beyond normal wolves or dire wolves. But a pack of wargs or winter wolves are smart enough to use such complex tactics. Aiding for attacks/trips would be fine though for normal wolves. Or readying an attack if one of the pack is attack would work as well.
Wait, you say this is normal wolf tactics works but when he tries to explain just that you say in game wolves are not that smart?
Do PF wolves all suffer from some mysterious head trauma making themless effective somehow?From what I understand the OP is trying to use the game rules to explain how regular wolf pack tactics work (and like you say this is what they do, mostly to protect the actual attacker from getting stomped) in a way that makes sense.
To me this sounds like a GM who wants to be fair to his players and while letting the monster be effective but not doing anything the players themselves can do.
I say Bravo and go for it.
I kind of like this idea. Is there any way you could ready an action to assist the attacking wolf on a trip attempt though? I guess maybe the +2 bonus on an attack roll might work if you ready an action to aid the attacking wolf with the trip attempt if the bite hits. If the wolves can get the PC prone and flanked that's a big advantage on both attack and defense.
Niall
the point is the intent of the wolves.
wolves are not likely to ready any kind of defense.
they may ready to attack when ever one of them is attacked, they may even aid in a specific wolfs attack, but they are not likely to actively wait for an attack on a specific ally wolf and come to its defense. That seems to take a little more than animal intelligence of 2.
having said that I think the concept of the wolves working together to take on the PC is a good one, I always endorse smart monsters... as long as their smart actions reflect their intelligence.
unfortunately in the Worg - Goblin relationship the Worg is usually the dominant.
so you would be HIS pet ^_^
The five wolves initiative resets to immediately before the PC's turn. Now the PC rolls to hit the wolf, suddenly AC24, and pretty reliably misses. Lather, rinse, repeat.
While in game terms its pretty complicated, what the wolf is doing "Stop that guy from hitting the alpha by nipping at his heels" is well within a wolves toolbags of standard operating procedures.
Wolf Intelligence
During the extermination of the American bison on the Great Plains, wolves learned to follow the sounds of gunshots, and would wait until the hunters had skinned and abandoned the bison carcasses before feeding on them. In northern Montana, where wolves were heavily persecuted by aerial hunters, wolves learned to avoid open areas whenever they heard aircraft. Conversely, biologists using aircraft to study wolves have managed to condition wolves not to fear their approach, even when flying low. When hunting, wolves tend to target the easiest options available to them: in areas populated by both moose and smaller deer species, the latter are taken in much higher proportion. The wolf's powers of memory were described by George Mivart, who reported that a tame wolf was able to recognise its master after a three year absence.[120] Non-rabid wolves are able to distinguish between armed and unarmed people,[122] and will typically avoid investigating people who display self-confident demeanors typical of being armed.[123] Adult wolves have been known to skillfully select hidden approaches when entering their dens, using bushes, wind-fallen trees, stumps, and other natural structures to conceal their approach.[122] Wolves with prior experience to traps may learn how to avoid or even harmlessly trigger them: in his hunt for the Currumpaw wolf, naturalist Ernest Thompson Seton noted that his initial attempts at capturing it were unsuccessful, as the wolf would dig up and spring the traps, or ignore them altogether.[124]
Though wolves are trainable, they lack the same degree of tractability seen in dogs. They are generally not as responsive as dogs are to coercive techniques involving fear, aversive stimuli and force. Generally, far more work is required to obtain the same degree of reliability seen in most dogs. Even then, once a certain behavior has been repeated several times, wolves may get bored and ignore subsequent commands. Wolves are more responsive toward positive conditioning and rewards,[125] though simple praise is not sufficient as in most dogs.[126] Unlike dogs, wolves tend to respond more to hand signals than voice.[126] Most attempts to train wolves as working dogs have met with failure. German biologist Erik Zimen attempted to train his captive wolves as sled dogs, and although his wolves eventually accepted the harness and the need to pull the sled in a straight line, they were ultimately unreliable, as they fought for personal space, would ignore commands once tired, and were distracted by other wildlife.[127] However, John James Audubon recorded an instance of a wolf being trained to hunt deer in Kentucky,[128] and Henry Wharton Shoemaker published a similar account of settlers in western and central Pennsylvania using wolves as hunting dogs.[129] Buffon wrote in his Natural History of tamed wolves in Persia being trained to perform dances and tricks.[130]
zotpox
no one said wolves were not intelligent... we said wolves were not intelligent to use complex advanced tactics like lets hang back and DEFEND who ever is attacked. this is a very complex thought process. that means the wolves are thinking at several tactical levels at the same time.
While in game terms its pretty complicated, what the wolf is doing "Stop that guy from hitting the alpha by nipping at his heels" is well within a wolves toolbags of standard operating procedures.
big norse.
If all of the wolves all used their action on their turn to aid another defending the alpha thats a stretch but i would let it slide.
if the wolves use all of their actions to ready action aid which ever one of the pack gets attacked that is beyond wolf intelligence it implies too much planning. IMHO
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You do get the flank bonus, because you are making an attack roll. Furthermore, aiding does stack, because it's untyped. I would have no problem with pack animals doing this, although I might raise the CR of the encounter to account for higher-than-expected tactical prowess.
Keep in mind also that readying to aid whoever is attacked removes the aider's ability to attack. These tactics would be inefficient against a large group, or even a single opponent with many attacks. The aid only applies to the first attack on the target.
Mergy, you DONT get the flank bonus because he is NOT attacking the flanked target.
the flanking has nothing to do with his action. The attack roll at AC10 is basically a skill check.
think of it this way... what if he is assisting the wolf directly to his left. they are not flanking the target... why would flanking be involved?
or consider this... the assist never takes into account the difficulty of the action. you dont consider the targets or allys AC only an attack at AC 10. thus the AC 10 is totally unrelated to the target or the one your assisting.
I was simply provideing an example of the type of intelligence being discused.
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Mergy, you DONT get the flank bonus because he is NOT attacking the flanked target.
the flanking has nothing to do with his action. The attack roll at AC10 is basically a skill check.
think of it this way... what if he is assisting the wolf directly to his left. they are not flanking the target... why would flanking be involved?
or consider this... the assist never takes into account the difficulty of the action. you dont consider the targets or allys AC only an attack at AC 10. thus the AC 10 is totally unrelated to the target or the one your assisting.
In melee combat, you can help a friend attack or defend by distracting or interfering with your opponent. If you're in position to make a melee attack on an opponent that is engaging a friend in melee combat, you can attempt to aid your friend as a standard action. You make an attack roll against AC 10. If you succeed, your friend gains either a +2 bonus on his next attack roll against that opponent or a +2 bonus to AC against that opponent's next attack (your choice), as long as that attack comes before the beginning of your next turn. Multiple characters can aid the same friend, and similar bonuses stack.
You make an attack roll, so your bonuses to attack help your roll. That includes enhancement bonuses, BAB, strength, and flanking bonuses. This quote also answers whether they stack: they do.
You make an attack roll, so your bonuses to attack help your roll. That includes enhancement bonuses, BAB, strength, and flanking bonuses. This quote also answers whether they stack: they do.
You make an attack roll, but is it a melee attack roll?
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You must be in a position to make a melee attack, and your Aid Another attempt does not provoke an attack of opportunity, so it certainly isn't ranged.
It's not that complicated guys. There is no Special Attack action that doesn't include flanking etc. Sunder does it, trip does it, aid another does it.
Sunder and Trip aren't melee attacks either. In fact, nothing in the Combat Maneuvers sections specifies that any combat maneuver are melee attacks.
Still, since sunder, trip and disarm can all utilize weapons, an argument can be made. But what about Bull Rush, Overrun or Grapple?
yes they stack thats not in dispute.
but does not get flanking.
to be honest it doesnt matter because its +2 or not and thats probably rarely ever going to mater.
but the point is its not a special attack action. you get to make an attack against AC10 but that AC10 is NOT the target. as in your not making any kind of attack against the flanked opponent. its not a combat maneuver or anything like that your simply attacking a DC.
yeah, it's a good strategy. i don't know if i would not let wolves be that devious. it's a very specific thing in rules terms, but i don't see why it's that special in actual behavior. it's kind of a stretch to say six wolves can ALL get a bite in in the same six seconds, so if some aren't biting in that six seconds, what are they doing?
a character for whom 6 wolves are a reasonable challenge should be able to deal with the situation by some means. if alone, they should be high enough that even +10 ac to the wolf's base 14 AC should be hittable if they are a melee type. if they are a caster they probably have other options to deal with the wolves en masse. if they are lower level but in a group, the group should have varied enough abilities that they should be able to take down the pack. certainly, some encounters can be built to be deadly, in that if all monsters can swarm one target they can take them down quickly, this isn't that much different. worst case is one targt, but in that case, being attacked by one wolf once/round is not that harsh of a threat.
Providing a flanking bonus does not require you to attack. It does not require that you have made an attack. It only requires that you threaten the target. It does not even require that you threaten the target with a melee weapon. (Note: this is important due to snap shot.)
When making a melee attack, you get a +2 flanking bonus if your opponent is threatened by another enemy character or creature on its opposite border or opposite corner.
To receive a flanking bonus requires you to attack. It also requires that that attack is a melee attack.
When making a melee attack, you get a +2 flanking bonus if your opponent is threatened by another enemy character or creature on its opposite border or opposite corner.
Since Aid Another does not stop you from threatening (in fact, it requires it) and all that is required for you to help flank is to threaten, you do in fact threaten while using Aid Another. Note: these are for the combat options of Aid Another. Other Aid another uses would be dependent upon how they are being used.
- Gauss
gauss seems right, the aid anothers shouldn't receive the flanking bonus (vs. AC10, hardly difficult), but the wolves who are aiding another still provide flank to the single wolf who IS making a real melee attack.
I did not state that Aid Another does not benefit from Flanking bonuses. It does.
In melee combat, you can help a friend attack or defend by distracting or interfering with an opponent. If you’re in position to make a melee attack on an opponent that is engaging a friend in melee combat, you can attempt to aid your friend as a standard action. You make an attack roll against AC 10.
So yes, you provide flanking bonuses when threatening and yes, you gain flanking bonuses when using Aid Another.
- Gauss
oh, ok. yeah, that looks right, if wierd.
(if using un-improved unarmed strike, you provoke an Aoo from... 'AC 10'?)
i had originally thought that, but somehow read your post very narrowly.
What I was implying was while in real life wolves nip at their preys legs, distracting and running it till either the prey falls over in a heep or makes a major mistake and leaves itself open to an attack. But with the limits built by this system, this combo of readied actions is a level of tactics that is beyond normal wolves. Not saying they're stupid, just beyond there capacity to understand and develope. Using aid for trips, or ever counter attacks would be fine, not to boost alphas AC.
Quandry, No worries. :D
- Gauss
Jack Rift: I would interpret the nips etc as distractions to penalize the AC of the target (ie: Aid Another +2attack) rather than to penalize the attack of the target. Readied actions are really unnecessary as an Aid Another works for the entire round (until the wolf's next action). I do not see wolves waiting to distract a creature that is attacking a fellow wolf. That is what you are proposing.
- Gauss
since combat rounds/turns are emulating continuous events on the part of all parties, i don't really see a major problem with wolves doing this. whether or not they 'intellectually' conceive of it in game-mechanical terms is just as irrelevant as maneuvering with threat areas in mind, etc. saying that their aggressive actions are coordinated as a pack so that some of them can attack freely while any retribution is hampered doesn't seem that far out from a reasonable realistic scenario. i don't know, but i wouldn't think anybody who refused to use this tactic for wolves was doing it wrong though.
i don't think the wolves using this tactic vs. them all attacking every round would make that much difference for a character for whom this CR challenge is reasonable... if they were all-out attacking, and the encounter is possibly dangerous for said character, then the character would certainly be tripped and be taking a good amount of damage every round, and probably able to kill at max 2 wolves per round, so 3 rounds of attacks sustained. vs. one wolf attacking (with no Aid to attacks/to-hit, just Flanking) would need 12 rounds to do the same number of attacks. if 6 wolves 1 on 1 is a reasonable CR for you, you probably have a decent enough AC or other defenses that the wolf isn't going to be hitting alot of the time. maybe it could be bad 1 on 1, but the game isn't designed for that anyways. if you have a group, you should have some sort of ability within the party to deal with the pack as a whole. so i mostly just see it as an interesting, challenging way to run a run of the mill animal threat who is known for pack tactics, and i think this would be an interesting way to emphasize the danger of this enemy.
Though wolves are trainable, they lack the same degree of tractability seen in dogs.
Interesting fact.
The human face more accurately displays information about emotion on the right half of the face. The human eye when first analyzing a face is immediately drawn to the right half, this is action even happens with very small children. Puppies of a few weeks old also look at a human face the same way. Chimps, wolves, cats and everything else tested look at the face very randomly.
Dogs have actually evolved to be able to communicate with humans.
The flanking bonus does not require a melee attack: it merely requires the ability to make a melee attack into the square (threaten). Whether someone is holding an action to attack or has already used their attack this round is irrelevant. If you're standing with big pointy teeth on either side of you, you're flanked.
If all of the wolves all used their action on their turn to aid another defending the alpha thats a stretch but i would let it slide.
if the wolves use all of their actions to ready action aid which ever one of the pack gets attacked that is beyond wolf intelligence it implies too much planning. IMHO
Its not planning at all, its reacting rather than acting: waiting till your foes back is turned to strike, which is VERY common in pack animals. Pathfinder kind of abstracts the "back" of someone but that shouldn't limit what the actual creatures see.
Are these optimized wolves or just fluffy ones?
BigNorseWolf: as I posted earlier, gaining the +2 flanking bonus DOES require making a melee attack. However, providing the flanking bonus only requires that you threaten. You do not even need a melee weapon to threaten (ie: Snap Shot).
- Gauss
Akerlof, nope. There is nothing in Aid Another that requires you to be adjacent to the ally. You might be thinking of Bodyguard which does require you to be adjacent to the ally to use aid another. It is an extra restriction.
- Gauss
Actually the first half of my statement was against animals that don't attack back, such as deer. Attacking back promotes one of two responses, kill it or run. My second half of the post we seemed to agree on, bonus to alphas attack, not boost its AC. Which is what we both said, or what I implied and how yours read to me. And I was not saying ready action to aid, I know it is done on your turn to boost anothers rolls or AC. But, to your last statement, wolves do wait until opennings present themselves before attacking, aka readying an attack, it reduces each individuals chance of getting hurt, which in turn hurts the pack. Go find videos of packs attacking deer. Nearly all pack animals do something similar.
Jack Rift: Im not sure that that is readying an attack so much as seeing an opening in the targets defenses (which is part of AC).
- Gauss
Not trying to be rude, pack animals studys was a side thing of mine when I was younger and throughout my undergraduate years in biology.
Dot.
K, I can see that, Guass. That works as well, and for part much better as it is wrapped up in AoO's.
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Yes. My mental image of what was occurring, is that wolves 2 through 6 are harrying and nipping at the PC, making it difficult for him to make an attack without leaving himself open to retaliation. The PC has to constantly watch his back, and worry about which wolf is actually committing to make the strike. Wolf 1 makes a cautious strike, hoping to trip the PC and basically end the fight.
It makes a bit more sense presented that way, but:
Jack Rift: I would interpret the nips etc as distractions to penalize the AC of the target (ie: Aid Another +2attack) rather than to penalize the attack of the target. Readied actions are really unnecessary as an Aid Another works for the entire round (until the wolf's next action). I do not see wolves waiting to distract a creature that is attacking a fellow wolf. That is what you are proposing.
- Gauss
The bit about the wolves "making it difficult for (the PC) to make an attack without leaving himself open to retaliation" makes it sound as though the PC should be able to commit fully to his attack if he accepts a counterattack from the nipping wolves - and that's way too complicated to model with a +2 AC for the alpha. The fact that "The PC has to constantly watch his back, and worry about which wolf is actually committing to make the strike." makes it sound much more similar to an aid another to the alpha's attack, since the nipping is distracting and the PC can't tell which front the real attack is coming from, making the real attack more likely to hit.
Tactically, the aid another to attack is probably actually more dangerous to the PCs. Aid another to defense is about wearing down the PC in the middle with one attack around while he struggles to hit the alpha. But if the PC has friends, those friends will be quick to pick off wolves, and the alpha's attack isn't going to take down the surrounded PC fast enough. An aid another to attack pretty much guarantees a successful trip and 6 AoO when the PC stands up.