I keep reading threads where it sounds like people are proposing using channeling to do both heal and harm at the same time.
Positive to heal allies and harm undead (or evil outsiders) at the same time.
Negative to heal undead minions and harm enemies at the same time.
I didn't think that was allowed (except for fiendish vessel). I thought you had to choose at the time you channel which it will be, heal allies (and minions) or harm enemies. Can't do both at the same time.
Am I reading this incorrectly? Is there some granted ability that they aren't mentioning and I am missing?
No you are correct. You either heal or harm. The opposite effect does not take place at the same time.
Channeling energy causes a burst that affects all creatures of one type (either undead or living) in a 30-foot radius centered on the cleric. The amount of damage dealt or healed is equal to 1d6 points of damage plus 1d6 points of damage for every two cleric levels beyond 1st (2d6 at 3rd, 3d6 at 5th, and so on). Creatures that take damage from channeled energy receive a Will save to halve the damage. The DC of this save is equal to 10 + 1/2 the cleric's level + the cleric's Charisma modifier. Creatures healed by channel energy cannot exceed their maximum hit point total—all excess healing is lost. A cleric may channel energy a number of times per day equal to 3 + her Charisma modifier. This is a standard action that does not provoke an attack of opportunity. A cleric can choose whether or not to include herself in this effect.
A cleric must be able to present her holy symbol to use this ability.
That's what I thought.
A bunch of the comments I have been reading sound like they are doing both at the same time.
So I guess I was wondering if there is some feat or archtype that allows it to be both.
So I guess I was wondering if there is some feat or archtype that allows it to be both.
It might be people confused by the Versatile Channeler feat. That allows you to choose which type of energy to channel each time you use the ability, but you still have to also choose which type of creature to target.
the undead subdomain of the death domain 1st level ability would allow you to heal yourself when you channeled negative energy to harm living creatures. that is the only way i know how to do both at once.
I thought that would only heal yourself when you channel negative to heal your undead minions.
Is that not true?
no, because it changes how you react to positive/negative energy, not what type of creature you are. so using it on yourself you are still considered a living creature. you channel to hurt all living creatures, and include yourself, but the negative energy ends up healing you instead of hurting you thanks to the domain ability.
"Undead Subdomain
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Death's Kiss (Su): You can cause a creature to take on some of the traits of the undead with a melee touch attack. Touched creatures are treated as undead for the purposes of effects that heal or cause damage based on positive and negative energy..."
It says you are treated as undead. Undead only get healied if channeling negative to heal them, not when channeling negative to hurt others.
Yes twas Beta [I just looked it up].
"Undead Subdomain
...
Death's Kiss (Su): You can cause a creature to take on some of the traits of the undead with a melee touch attack. Touched creatures are treated as undead for the purposes of effects that heal or cause damage based on positive and negative energy..."It says you are treated as undead. Undead only get healied if channeling negative to heal them, not when channeling negative to hurt others.
but you are still a living creature, and can be targeted by negative energy for harm. when you use this ability on yourself, you are still treated as a living creature for how channeling energy affects you, it just switches what happens when it does. if you could target an undead with negative energy to harm it, it makes sense that it would be healed. there are no rules to cover this, but it would be a relatively useless ability if it didn't do anything.
when channeling negative energy, there are only 2 options. target living creatures to do damage, or target undead to heal. this ability is specifically worded to not actually change you from a living creature, just what happens when you are targeted. so the only way it does anything is if you are targeted as a living creature.
so the only options when channeling ANY energy are targeted as a living creature with positive energy to heal, which will actually damage you, or targeted as a living creature to harm, which then heals you, like i said in my post.
but you are still a living creature, and can be targeted by negative energy for harm. when you use this ability on yourself, you are still treated as a living creature for how channeling energy affects you, it just switches what happens when it does. if you could target an undead with negative energy to harm it, it makes sense that it would be healed. there are no rules to cover this, but it would be a relatively useless ability if it didn't do anything..."... You can cause a creature to take on some of the traits of the undead with a melee touch attack. Touched creatures are treated as undead for the purposes of effects that heal or cause damage based on positive and negative energy..."
It says you are treated as undead. Undead only get healied if channeling negative to heal them, not when channeling negative to hurt others.
It doesn't do nothing. As written it heals you when you channel negative to heal undead.
... when channeling negative energy, there are only 2 options. target living creatures to do damage, or target undead to heal. this ability is specifically worded to not actually change you from a living creature, just what happens when you are targeted. so the only way it does anything is if you are targeted as a living creature.
so the only options when channeling ANY energy are targeted as a living creature with positive energy to heal, which will actually damage you, or targeted as a living creature to harm, which then heals you, like i said in my post.
I don't see how you can get that. That would not be "treated as undead for the purposes of effects that heal or cause damage based on positive and negative energy." If I channel negative energy to har living creatures, are any undead in the area healed by it? No.
Since you are treated like undead you would not be either.
It doesn't do nothing. As written it heals you when you channel negative to heal undead.
no it does not, since you cannot target yourself for healing since you are not actually undead for targeting.
ok let me try this a different way, since no one seems to be getting what i am writing. and because this might be a long post i am only going to talk about negative energy, since that was this ability deals with.
there are 2 things that happen when you channel energy
First, you choose who to target, living creatures or undead
A good cleric (or one who worships a good deity) channels positive energy and can choose to deal damage to undead creatures or to heal living creatures. An evil cleric (or one who worships an evil deity) channels negative energy and can choose to deal damage to living creatures or to heal undead creatures.
Second, you apply the effects of your channeling to those targets
Channeling energy causes a burst that affects all creatures of one type (either undead or living) in a 30-foot radius centered on the cleric. The amount of damage dealt or healed is equal to 1d6 points of damage plus 1d6 points of damage for every two cleric levels beyond 1st (2d6 at 3rd, 3d6 at 5th, and so on).
Now, let's look at the Undead Subdomain
Death's Kiss (Su): You can cause a creature to take on some of the traits of the undead with a melee touch attack. Touched creatures are treated as undead for the purposes of effects that heal or cause damage based on positive and negative energy. This effect lasts for a number of rounds equal to 1/2 your cleric level (minimum 1). It does not apply to the Turn Undead or Command Undead feats. You can use this ability a number of times per day equal to 3 + your Wisdom modifier.
Note the text i bolded. This, to me means that you are not treated as undead except for the effects that cause or heal damage. This INCLUDES TARGETING. You are STILL TREATED AS A LIVING CREATURE regardless of if you have this ability on you or not.
That is the crux of my whole point. When you target channel energy, you either choose living or undead creatures. This domain ability never changes what type of creature you are. You are ALWAYS a living creature. So when you are targeted with negative energy to harm, what happens? Only 2 options are A)Nothing or B) You are healed instead of harmed by it.
The rules do not really cover what happens when a living creature is targeted by harming negative energy, but happens to be treated like an undead for the purposes of how it affects him. IMO the intention is to be healed by it, because if the option that 'nothing happens' is what actually happens, then this ability is designed simply to stop you from taking damage from other clerics channeled negative energy, which doesn't seem very useful as a domain power.
You are treated as an undead for targeting, too.
Channeling is an effect that heals or causes damage based on positive or negative energy. So for channeling you are treated as an undead.
Cure and inflict spells are an effect that heals or causes damage based on positive or negative energy. So for cure and inflict spells you are treated as an undead.
I could go on.
I have a further question on using channeled energy to harm and was going to make a new post for it, but it fits in here very well...
You have are in an outside chamber with your enemy defending the door entrance into the next room; you step to the side of the door, out of reach, while another of your group fights at the door.
You, being the cleric, channel to harm your enemy. They are opposite types to your group, so your allies are not harmed by the effect.
Now, does the channel energy, being 30 foot and radius, enter through the door and spread to the other enemies within the defended room or are those enemies within the room protected since they are blocked. Would you call it cover and give the enemies a bonus to their saves or are they just protected totally from the effect.
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If you touch yourself with this ability you are treated as undead. If a rival cleric says "I'm going to channel negative energy to harm living creatures", you aren't targeted because you're treated as undead. Yes, you are still a living creature. You breathe, sleep, eat, laugh, cry, and create great works of art, but as far as positive and negative energy effects go you're undead. If someone is targeting living creatures then you're not a valid target for the effect.
For the answer for my above question; channeling is a burst radius, so does not turn corners, etc. If it were a spread radius, it would.
It is not that I am not getting what you are saying. It is that I think that interpretation is incorrect.
I think some of the difference is where you said "since you cannot target yourself for healing since you are not actually undead for targeting."
That is not in the rules that I have read so far. In fact, you do not 'target' channeling at all. You cause a burst from your location of negative (or positive) energy. You choose if it is harming or healing. You choose if you are included in the burst.
If it is harming negative energy and you included yourself in the burst, you will be treated just like undead. You will not be harmed.
If it is healing negative energy and you included yourself in the burst, you will be treated just like undead. You will be healed.
It is not that I am not getting what you are saying. It is that I think that interpretation is incorrect.
I think some of the difference is where you said "since you cannot target yourself for healing since you are not actually undead for targeting."
That is not in the rules that I have read so far. In fact, you do not 'target' channeling at all. You cause a burst from your location of negative (or positive) energy. You choose if it is harming or healing. You choose if you are included in the burst.
If it is harming negative energy and you included yourself in the burst, you will be treated just like undead. You will not be harmed.
If it is healing negative energy and you included yourself in the burst, you will be treated just like undead. You will be healed.
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That is not in the rules that I have read so far. In fact, you do not 'target' channeling at all. You cause a burst from your location of negative (or positive) energy. You choose if it is harming or healing.
This energy can be used to cause or heal damage, depending on the type of energy channeled and the creatures targeted.
.....
Channeling energy causes a burst that affects all creatures of one type (either undead or living) in a 30-foot radius centered on the cleric.
(Bolding mine.)
That is not in the rules that I have read so far. In fact, you do not 'target' channeling at all. You cause a burst from your location of negative (or positive) energy. You choose if it is harming or healing.(Bolding mine.)This energy can be used to cause or heal damage, depending on the type of energy channeled and the creatures targeted.
.....
Channeling energy causes a burst that affects all creatures of one type (either undead or living) in a 30-foot radius centered on the cleric.
exactly
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Death's Kiss (Su): You can cause a creature to take on some of the traits of the undead with a melee touch attack. Touched creatures are treated as undead for the purposes of effects that heal or cause damage based on positive and negative energy This effect lasts for a number of rounds equal to 1/2 your cleric level (minimum 1). It does not apply to the Turn Undead or Command Undead feats. You can use this ability a number of times per day equal to 3 + your Wisdom modifier.Note the text i bolded. This, to me means that you are not treated as undead except for the effects that cause or heal damage. This INCLUDES TARGETING. You are STILL TREATED AS A LIVING CREATURE regardless of if you have this ability on you or not.
That is the crux of my whole point. When you target channel energy, you either choose living or undead creatures. This domain ability never changes what type of creature you are. You are ALWAYS a living creature. So when you are targeted with negative energy to harm, what happens? Only 2 options are A)Nothing or B) You are healed instead of harmed by it.
The rules do not really cover what happens when a living creature is targeted by harming negative energy, but happens to be treated like an undead for the purposes of how it affects him. IMO the intention is to be healed by it, because if the option that 'nothing happens' is what actually happens, then this ability is designed simply to stop you from taking damage from other clerics channeled negative energy, which doesn't seem very useful as a domain power.
I believe that the Channel itself is an effect that heals or causes damage based on positive and negative energy. Thus any variable of the Channel (including targeting) treats you as an undead.
This means that you can make the touched creature immune to harm by negative channeling, healed by negative channeling used to heal undead (such as your own), harmed by positive channeling used to harm undead and not healed by positive channeling. And it also works in the same way with Cure and Inflict spells. Which makes it great to use against allies of a positive energy Cleric. Or for your own allies when facing a negative energy Cleric.
I feel that it is a good 1-st level ability.
I believe that the Channel itself is an effect that heals or causes damage based on positive and negative energy. Thus any variable of the Channel (including targeting) treats you as an undead.
This
Channel Positive energy does the following:
Targets living creatures. The effect is healing.
OR
Targets Undead creatures. The effect is damage.
Channel Negative energy does the following:
Targets living creatures. The effect is damage.
OR
Targets Undead creatures. The effect is healing.
IF you are treated as an undead creature for the purposes of positive and negative energy then:
CPE either does nothing (targets living) or damages you (targets undead).
CNE either does nothing (targets living) or heals you (targets undead).
- Gauss
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I imagine Dhampirs (or any other creature with a negative energy affinity) could be included in this discussion, too.
I.E. a good cleric channels positive energy to harm undead, but his poor dhampir ally is just a little too close and gets hurt as well.
Or, an evil dhampir cleric channels negative energy to heal his undead allies, and heals him/herself as well.
Rocky:
I wasnt making a specific statement as to any ability, I was responding to the thread in general. I stated what would happen if you are treated as an undead creature for the purposes of positive or negative energy.
For the ability you reference you are treated as undead for CNE and living for CPE (assuming you are alive to begin with).
- Gauss
Rocky: I think you misunderstood what I stated.
If you are alive to begin with you normally heal when someone channels positive energy with the target of living. Death's Embrace does not change this.
You are correct though that I did not state enough regarding CNE. I should have put that you are healed regardless of the CNE targeting (living or undead).
Summary:
If you have Death's Embrace the following occurs:
CPE targeting living heals you.
CPE targeting undead does nothing to you.
CNE targeting living heals you.
CNE targeting undead heals you.
I hope this is clear now.
- Gauss
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If you have Death's Embrace the following occurs:
CPE targeting living heals you.
CPE targeting undead does nothing to you.
CNE targeting living heals you.
CNE targeting undead heals you.
So the only changes to this, if you *also* had Death's Kiss on yourself, would be that CPE targeting undead harms you, and CNE targeting living does nothing to you?
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I've always found it rather silly that you have to choose heal or harm. Where is the logic in it? A burst of negative energy to inflict harm is a burst of negative energy, period. Undead shouldn't magically not be healed by this use--it's the price you pay for using an area of effect ability. I'd say the same about channel positive: Undead should be harmed at the same time as everyone else being healed. A pity Paizo didn't see it the same way.
Oh, and channel being targeted? I have never seen anything to indicate that it might be at all. Indeed, the closest you get to it being "targeted" is through selective channeling, and even that is simply choosing to exclude certain organisms. Just like you'll hit them if they're invisible, you'll also be unable to ignore them with selective channeling for that reason.