Does anyone have a list of the most meatgrinder missions in pfs?
You might want to define what you mean by "meatgrinder". Some scenarios are fairly easy except for one or two sucker punches, for instance (I'd put Darkest Vengeance in that category).
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Does anyone have a list of the most meatgrinder missions in pfs? I would love to know which ones really put you to the test and see if my group would want to run them if we can convince our gm.
There are already a few threads for this. Do a search here and in the PFS GM forums.
edit: From a cursory search, here is a relevant thread for you
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I think PFS modules are too difficult overall for the average player. I think select early modules and many year three and four modules are too difficult for anything except a well optimized home group. Darkest Vengeance is one of the nastier ones, I convinced the RPG organizer to run a different module instead of that one at a con several years back.
This statement doesn't match the reality I've experinced. I've found they were usually, even the season 3 and 4 scenarios, fairly well balanced. Yeah, there are few modules here and there that are tough or may be particularly tough for the right mix of players, but I've seen nothing overwhelming.
Besides, even when it's tough, I think my favorite moments are when half the party is down and you finally score the knock out blow on the BBEG.
That, and good RPing is what it's about.
Also, did you ever consider backing out of the room you were ambushed in and drawing the enemy to you and away from its advantage point? Sometimes strategy is just as good as being prepared with an answer. A retreat is sometimes the best answer (although I have almost never seen a group do it).
Heh. Did we ever! Unfortunately...
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I think PFS modules are too difficult overall for the average player. I think select early modules and many year three and four modules are too difficult for anything except a well optimized home group. Darkest Vengeance is one of the nastier ones, I convinced the RPG organizer to run a different module instead of that one at a con several years back.This statement doesn't match the reality I've experinced. I've found they were usually, even the season 3 and 4 scenarios, fairly well balanced. Yeah, there are few modules here and there that are tough or may be particularly tough for the right mix of players, but I've seen nothing overwhelming.
Besides, even when it's tough, I think my favorite moments are when half the party is down and you finally score the knock out blow on the BBEG.
That, and good RPing is what it's about.
It's less fun when 3 of 5 of the party is down on the 3rd round (one dead), the 4 bad guys haven't been scratched and you are out of spells. Which of your friends do you grab and try to run with? Realize that you're all 2nd to 4th level and no one has the PP to get raised...
Been there before. NOT fun. Told them we shouldn't play up...
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I think PFS modules are too difficult overall for the average player. I think select early modules and many year three and four modules are too difficult for anything except a well optimized home group. Darkest Vengeance is one of the nastier ones, I convinced the RPG organizer to run a different module instead of that one at a con several years back.This statement doesn't match the reality I've experinced. I've found they were usually, even the season 3 and 4 scenarios, fairly well balanced. Yeah, there are few modules here and there that are tough or may be particularly tough for the right mix of players, but I've seen nothing overwhelming.
Besides, even when it's tough, I think my favorite moments are when half the party is down and you finally score the knock out blow on the BBEG.
That, and good RPing is what it's about.
It's less fun when 3 of 5 of the party is down on the 3rd round (one dead), the 4 bad guys haven't been scratched and you are out of spells. Which of your friends do you grab and try to run with? Realize that you're all 2nd to 4th level and no one has the PP to get raised...
Been there before. NOT fun. Told them we shouldn't play up...
Before you play up, you look around, do you have some front liners? Do you have some healing sources?
If the answer to those things is no, you don't play up.
When you're at a tactical disadvantage (i.e. not scratching the bad guys) that's when you pull out, rather before that, pull out the crossbow, bludgeoning (or piercing/slashing) weapon or the alchemist fire you were carrying because your a smart player and smart players always have a couple backup strategies planned. You also have 14 Dex and 18 Int rather than a 20 int and 10 dex (and at least a 12 con) so you can act effectively use your back up if your spells are used up.
Also, you step out of the room and retreat if need be, heal, go back etc.
If you do those things (and the higher level equivilents), you don't die.
All the best,
Kerney
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If the answer to those things is no, you don't play up.
IME, you don't have a choice about playing up most of the time. The game days I attend generally have one table per tier, so you don't have much flexibility to put together a suitable group. I am much more tolerant of difficulties when playing up by choice, so being forced to play up with a weak party (Usually due to a 3 or 7 player table) is quite annoying.
Yes, I am referring to scenarios. I have only played one module under PFS rules, Crypt of the Everflame. It was very challenging for 4 first and 1 second level character. We were fortunate in group makeup with a second level cleric and a 1st level cleric with the sun and glory domains. That made up for no arcane (others were my rogue, pre-gen fighter and a gunslinger).
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All scenarios are lethal if you have just a bunch of 0XP characters. The few gold and pp you get from just 1xp are huge. A 1-2 tier scenario with just 0XP characters is very different from the same scenario with a few 2nd levels.
for most tier 1-2, I agree with you, but there are actually a couple of adventures where having a whole group of 0 xp PCs is still survivable. I'd put First Steps parts 1 and 3 in that category. Barring crits from particular bad guys, any group of level 1s should be able to survive those two.
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That feat is for sunrods actually: Equipment Trick (sunrod) called "Like the Sun". It's from the Pathfinder Field Guide.
As for the original question. I've witnessed one tpk and one near-party wipe(my character escaped), but besides those it's been only somewhat challenging so far. Looking at levels and tiers is critical when evaluating scenario difficulty, I find, since what's tpk territory for 1-2 (an alchemist bomber ambush, for instance) is only a hindrance for subtier 3-4 characters. Unless they play up. Some things are incredibly crippling early on, but easy to counter later and do not level well. Swarms, for example.
From what I've seen, once you have enough hit points to not worry about dying when an enemy rolls max damage, discounting critical damage, so typically second or third level; have a source of healing at hand; have enough money for simple countermeasures like alchemical greases and weapon oils, etc, you'll arrive at a plateu of sorts which can last for the rest of the character's career, barring some modules. It's where your survivability is less about your current "build" or level and far more about everyone playing tactically and intelligently. Skill is king.
PS. Granted, my highest-level characters are only at 8th(and one of them started in season 0!) thanks to a very slow local campaign, so things might get gradually crazier once you are nearing the early teens. I wouldn't know, because some of our local crazies are 10th level now and can no longer participate in lower tier games.
PPS. Prepare for swarms of burning bees. "Oh god, not the BEES!"
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Grimcleaver,
Both of those adventures can definately be difficult. Sometimes a lucky hit on one side or the other can mean the difference between success and failure. Don't give up on Pathfinder Society! I have been playing 3.5 and 4e for years, and I have really enjoyed Pathfinder. Feats like blindfighting make the darkness a little less devastating. Maybe try backing out of a dangerous room and holding a door closed until the enemies spells (or darkness) wears off. In short - keep playing! Most games are better than what you experienced.
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It also has to do with how much prep the GM puts into things and how experianced the GM is. Some scenarios are rough on their own, others are mediocre but can be brutal in the hands of a good GM. Another issue is within the tier discussion is, sometimes the low teir isn't hard but to play up is an absolute nightmare (most season 1 teir 7-11 are a good example of this).
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Imo, your GM didn't do enough prep, especially for a local game.
Part of the prep is to read the reviews. Almost every review for Darkest Vengenance said it was deadly and it should be avoided with level 1 PCs. Six level 2 PCs can do OK.
It also sounds like you didn't have a good (martial) damage dealer in the group, which is even a better reason not to run the toughest scenarios.
So yeah, blame your GM, not the scenario.
The party we had consisted of a variant paladin, a fighter, a cleric and my evoker. The problem was that anyone who found him got premptively attacked and dropped before we could attack, or we'd try to hit and whiff because of the 50% miss chance. We couldn't target with spells--and our cleric was tied up healing every round, until she got dropped.
So this week we did We Be Goblins. I was stressed going in because all there is is pregens--and they looked to be built heavily toward flavor not proficiency. I smelled a wipe. Suprisingly things went pretty smoothly. Part of our fortune was the huge amount of swag the module drops on you either in your starting gear (wand of cure light wounds and bombs!), in the village prelude, and in every encounter. That said, the final boss had a lot of similarities to the boss of the tower module--but we took her out no sweat, and as first level goblins no less.
That free level (and the 500 gold!) will really help my grappling death cleric for next game. Looking forward to trying him out!
I got the sheet back from the DM. Unless he filled it out wrong. It says 4 PP and 3 XP. Weird.
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Venture-Captain, Michigan—Mt. Pleasant
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While regular (32 page) modules are good for 3xp and 4 pp, WBG is a Free RPG Day module.
Free RPG Day Modules
The 16-page, Free RPG Day modules are shorter than
a normal 32-page module and are more in line with a
normal Pathfinder Society Scenario. Currently, these
include Master of the Fallen Fortress, We Be Goblins!, and
Dawn of the Scarlet Sun. To bring the Free RPG Day
modules more in line with the rest of Pathfinder Society
Organized Play, all current and future sanctioned Free
RPG Day modules will award 1 XP, 1 PP and the gp
amount listed on the Chronicle sheet if using normal
advancement. If using slow advancement, they award
0.5 XP, 0.5 PP and half the gp listed on the Chronicle
sheet. These apply only on successful completion of
the adventure. If you have played and been awarded
a Chronicle sheet from any of the Free RPG Day
modules listed above, the XP, Prestige Points, and gp
you received remain unchanged. All other rules for
sanctioned module play, found in Chapter 6 of the Guide
to Pathfinder Society Organized Play, should be followed.
I'm playing Darkest Vengeance this weekend.
With 3 level 1 PCs and a GM-controlled level 1 Ezren, I hope. ;-)
Str 16 = 10 points, 5 if you went 14+2 from being a half elf
Dex 14 = 5 points
Con 07 = -4 Points
Int 07 = -4 Points
Wis 14 = 5 Points
Cha 14 = 5 Points
--------------------
17 Points (12 if you've already assigned your racial bonus.)There is no reason to commit suicide by dumping con to 7 on a d8 melee class, you don't have to dump any stats to get those bonuses:
Str 16 = 5 Points (14 bought +2 racial)
Dex 14 = 5 Points
Con 10 = 0 Points
Int 10 = 0 Points
Wis 14 = 5 Points
Cha 14 = 5 Points
-------------------------
20 point buy
That's a fantastic catch! Thanks so much! That's gonna be a big help. I guess with all the up and down tweaking of stats I lost track of some along the way. It's like Christmas.
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I have started my second society character, a sorcerer, and my feeling about the sorcerer is that early level damage is really pitiful as a sorcerer and that to get anywhere, you really need a good selection of save or suck spells, at least until you get second or third level spells. That's just my initial impression though, I haven't really gotten him past 1.
Don't worry about sorcerers, they pick up in a bit. You do have to pick your spells carefully, but once you get 2nd level spells it gets really fun really quick. Magic missile is excellent, and if you pair it with the toppling metamagic you can get some *serious* bang out of that spell. Trip attempts as a 2nd level spell, or 1st if you have magical lineage? It becomes a fun trick for all levels!
Owner - Enchanted Grounds, President/Owner - Enchanted Grounds
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Magic missile is excellent, and if you pair it with the toppling metamagic you can get some *serious* bang out of that spell. Trip attempts as a 2nd level spell, or 1st if you have magical lineage? It becomes a fun trick for all levels!
Yeah, that's been everyone's favorite thing to bust out, lately, and I have to admit I'm pretty sick of it, both as a GM and as a player at tables where this happens. It's this kind of thing that drives me to distraction about newer books. Don't they test this crap and realize how big an impact it'll have on games? This and the alchemist force bomb that trips on a reflex save are driving me insane. It's no longer the thf that hits for 50+ damage at 2nd level that is making scenarios no fun to play. It's this stuff.
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Owner - Enchanted Grounds, President/Owner - Enchanted Grounds
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Apparently some people go their entire career without using it successfully even once.
Yow. That boggles my mind...
Edit: Whenever it's been used against me, or I've been at a table with one, the DCs were in the upper teens to mid 20s, depending on the level. It scaled very nicely with what CR was being faced, it seemed to me, and seeing as it's a reflex save, most of the bad guys don't have a chance. It's pretty unusual to find decent reflex saves among PFS bad guys, I've found.
Re-Edit: Reading through that thread is killing me. I could only *wish* those were my experiences so far in PFS, both with this toppling thing and with trip builds. From what I've seen, they completely dominate the games they're involved in.
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Edit: Whenever it's been used against me, or I've been at a table with one, the DCs were in the upper teens to mid 20s, depending on the level. It scaled very nicely with what CR was being faced, it seemed to me, and seeing as it's a reflex save, most of the bad guys don't have a chance. It's pretty unusual to find decent reflex saves among PFS bad guys, I've found.
Toppling Spell isn't a Reflex save, it's a Trip against the enemies CMD.
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Owner - Enchanted Grounds, President/Owner - Enchanted Grounds
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Edit: Whenever it's been used against me, or I've been at a table with one, the DCs were in the upper teens to mid 20s, depending on the level. It scaled very nicely with what CR was being faced, it seemed to me, and seeing as it's a reflex save, most of the bad guys don't have a chance. It's pretty unusual to find decent reflex saves among PFS bad guys, I've found.Toppling Spell isn't a Reflex save, it's a Trip against the enemies CMD.
Right. Sorry. Mixing that up with the force bomb knock prone thing. Just as annoying...
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Owner - Enchanted Grounds, President/Owner - Enchanted Grounds
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Trip and Grapple are the things that make or break games at higher level play. Kill their HP (several rounds), or make a single good grapple check. Hmm. I'll stick with the grapple check, thanks.
I know it's weird, but I have to disagree. The game is designed for the good guys to win, already. Making it over in one round just makes it boring. I would much rather, were you at my table, that you take a few rounds doing fun things than simply shut it down in a single round without the rest of us having anything else to do with it.
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Trip and Grapple are the things that make or break games at higher level play. Kill their HP (several rounds), or make a single good grapple check. Hmm. I'll stick with the grapple check, thanks.I know it's weird, but I have to disagree. The game is designed for the good guys to win, already. Making it over in one round just makes it boring. I would much rather, were you at my table, that you take a few rounds doing fun things than simply shut it down in a single round without the rest of us having anything else to do with it.
I agree, and it is what I do. I play a sorc8/oracle1/paladin2, and he does a wide variety of silly things. What I'm saying is that Paizo goofed in how grapple/trip is basically a fighters save or die trick. Unfortunately, the way PFS is going, it seems like we'll have to use such silly tricks just to survive.
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the way PFS is going, it seems like we'll have to use such silly tricks just to survive.
It's an adjustment process. I put most of it on the GMs. In the past they've probably had to TRY to challenge the PCs because the scenarios didn't give them much to work with. Now they have enough to work with, but they're still trying. :-)
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Owner - Enchanted Grounds, President/Owner - Enchanted Grounds
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I agree, and it is what I do. I play a sorc8/oracle1/paladin2, and he does a wide variety of silly things. What I'm saying is that Paizo goofed in how grapple/trip is basically a fighters save or die trick. Unfortunately, the way PFS is going, it seems like we'll have to use such silly tricks just to survive.Trip and Grapple are the things that make or break games at higher level play. Kill their HP (several rounds), or make a single good grapple check. Hmm. I'll stick with the grapple check, thanks.I know it's weird, but I have to disagree. The game is designed for the good guys to win, already. Making it over in one round just makes it boring. I would much rather, were you at my table, that you take a few rounds doing fun things than simply shut it down in a single round without the rest of us having anything else to do with it.
Fair enough. Keep up the "wide variety of silly things" and you're keeping things fun. That's all any of us can ask.
And I'll take a moment to agree with Kyle, too. I really do think that this thread showcases a lot of scenarios where the GMs are given the tools to succeed at challenging a party. Normally they are not given those tools (anyone seen the high level scenario with the barbarian with "Come and Get Me" but no combat reflexes nor the rage power that grants extra AoOs? Yeah...).
Whether the result is GMs having to look for ways to challenge parties, and then going on overkill when they are given a plethora of options, or because players take for granted that scenarios will be easy, then are surprised when one isn't, I think the disparity is the problem more than anything else. GMs now need to learn how to provide a challenge without gleefully smoking characters indiscriminately. Right, Kyle? (-;
So basically, GMs need to learn how to tell how rough an individual scenario is likely to be? Am I following right?
I'd settle for players knowing how rough an individual scenario is likely to be.