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what if the PCs try this?
AS written, the PC's might come to believe the possessing kazavon is the real enemy, what if they try to separate her from the crown of fangs? what would happen?
what alignment was illeosa originally? A snobbish egocentric brat isnt a nice person, but the REAL villain IS kazavon... just wondering, did anyone ever come across this?
what would happen if?
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Well, the Crown of Fangs is an artifact, and a rather powerful one at that. I would rule Ileosa is way past the point of redemption, especialy so because when you think about it, the Crown of Fangs didn't create evil in here, it exegerrated it and gave her the cunning and power to act on it.
Cleansing the lower classes with a plauge, taking control of the city as a tyrant, disfiguring and controling beatiful women... all of these are things Ileosa craved, but was never able to acheive before she chanced upon the Fangs. Kazavon really only leeched upon those desires. Ileosa is very evil.
Thw whispers of Kazavon influented many in Korvosa before Ileosa and created the legendary "curse of the crimson throne" - every king who lived atop the pyramid had to struggle against that influence. Ileosa never stood a real chance agianst Kazavon's power of will, but she didn't really struggle all that much either.
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what if the PCs try this?
AS written, the PC's might come to believe the possessing kazavon is the real enemy, what if they try to separate her from the crown of fangs? what would happen?
what alignment was illeosa originally? A snobbish egocentric brat isnt a nice person, but the REAL villain IS kazavon... just wondering, did anyone ever come across this?
what would happen if?
Ask me again in 6 months :-). It looks quite likely that the PCs in my campaign will be trying to redeem her. If things go that way, I'll definitely make it possible (albeit hard). They'll almost certainly have to come up with a way of making her helpless and then destroying the Crown.
There are some ideas at http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2ikdl&page=2?Crown-of-Fangs-Impressions
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I agree with Lord Snow. Having played and DM'ed this campaign I think redemption is totally out. I and my players loved finally having an enemy they could unleash all hell upon to finally end this horrible plague on the city. They need her as a final enemy that is evil because of her own desires as a petulant queen instead of a possessed woman.
The early material specifically states Illeosa wouldnt have acted on her desire to get the ole fuddy duddy out of the way, she desired him gone, but a murderess she was not. Kazavons influence is what brings her over the edge.
It's also clearly the source of her power as, she didnt actually go through the process of gaining all that experience to sudden become a 16th level bard.
She may not have gone through the process of becoming a Level 16 Bard. But she was a Neutral Evil Level 4 Bard even before the Adventure Path starts. The lore in CotCT backs this up and Inner Sea Magic corroborates her status.
Neutral Evil individuals can be redeemed I suppose but it's no easier or harder than trying to "redeem" any other random evil individual.
I've never seen her stated as a level 4 neutral evil bard.
The Lore in CotCT doesn't give her any starting stats.
How does she get her power? It's the crown, right? what happens if you remove the crown? What happens if you do something to reverse or nullify her contract with Lorthact?
Would she revert to a bard 4/aristocrat 2? If so that would give her 6 HD of evil, which means a paladin could detect her. But I haven't seen the 4 levels of bard anywhere.
The only thing she's certain of having is 2 levels of aristocrat.
Reason I'm asking, I'm considering adding in secrets of the academae as part of the story line with a few changes. In such a way that the PCs find out about illeosas contract and might have a way of doing something about it. They might also have a chance of getting the headmasters help (especially if they reveal lorthact)
So if the PCs find a way to nullify the contract and separate her from the crown.... what is she? a 6th level character?
More and more, I like her better as a summoner, who went through the choices and made the bargains on her own. Rather than her finding the teeth and getting taken over by Kazavon, Kazavon technically makes the bargain with the contract devil, so.... my party if and when they fin that out will exploit that to nullfiy the contract, and therefor rob her of the devilbound template, diminishing her power.
Im' just trying to figure out, how much of her power, can they separate her from? Kind of like destroying Voldemorts Horicrux, If they bring her down to a level they can defeat, this will go well. But if they bust her down so far (like a level 6) perhaps they might just imprisoner her rather than destroying her, as they are really after stopping Kazavon.
But as a summoner, who CHOSE to enter a relationship with KAZAVON (with his spirit being her Eidolon) and then choosing on her own to enter lorthacts contract, the circumstances would be different, there may still be a way of diminishing her power.... I dunno. it would just be different.
According to Inner Sea Magic anyway. The first chapter has a list of prominent magic-users throughout the Inner Sea with Alignment and Class Levels listed. The list assumes a "Year Zero" stance on metaplot (as most of the Campaign Setting material does) so no AP's are assumed to have taken place yet. So certain NPCs are lower level than they end up being in an AP (or still alive for that matter).
Ileosa Arabasti is listed as NE Aristocrat 2/Bard 4. While the CotCT lore doesn't give her stats directly, even before she obtained the crown, she struck me as evil and having a small modicum of power, certainly more than Aristocrat 2. Though this last bit may certainly just be my interpretation of the background material. Regardless of that, Inner Sea Magic has shed some light on the matter.
Edit: As for being redeemable, going with the motivations you've given her, there are two main options. Since she has made the choice on her own to enter into a relationship with Kazavon it comes down to why she made the choice. If it was for purely selfish motivation then there's really no redeeming her, she was clearly a power-monger even before the contracts. If the choice was somehow forced upon her or made out of desperation then there's a bit more leeway in how much "goodness" may reside within her.
well as written she did NOT make a choice to enter a relationship with kazavon. Kazavon was trying to creep into the minds of several individuals in Korvosa (one of them being Salvator Scream) When Illeosa wanders down into chambers forgotten, she makes direct contact with the teeth, and poof, shes under Kazavons control.
The poisoning of Eodred is stated as something illeosa would never have done her self, although she DID desire the outcome (eodred gone and her in control) she was a user, not a murderer. So the poisoning, plague, gray maidens etc etc, All Kazavon, although he was acting on desires and jealousies of Illeosa, which just made it easy for him to manipulate her.
The maidens are a result of her being jealous of other pretty women that might rival her beauty, Illeosa always had the motivations and desires but none of the conviction or drive, that was all Kazavon.
But like I said, most of her "power" is artificial, so how much of it could be, theoretically undone?
My group has never been power gamers, if they go up against her as written it will be a TPK. AC and DCs are too high.
Having read over this Adventure Path recently, this is what comes to me off the top of my head...
Perhaps if the PCs were to knock her out, get the crown off of her, deal with the crown, then go to bat for her with regard to the contract, arguing that she did not enter the agreement under her own volition (due to Kazavon's influence), they could save her that way.
My personal style would be to have them do something naughty for a contract devil in order to "get through the red tape."
Your idea is certainly do-able, Pendagast. The PCs are assumed to be closing in on 9th-level spells by the time this would come up, so any resource they would need to pull this off is likely accessible to them.
-Matt
well.... assuming all PC's survive until the final battle, I'll be managing things so they reach the final fight as 19th level characters.
those characters would look something like this:
Female Elf Samurai/Bard/Battle Herald 10/1/8 (maybe)
Female Human Hexcrafter Magus 18
Male Half Orc Urban Barbarian/Inquisitor/Oracle/Rage Prophet 6/6/1/6
Female Half Elf Ninja Oracle 6/13
as such not anticipating 9th level spell casting capability,as you can see.
The Oracle character might go with less ninja, but I doubt it will be less than 4 levels. so she'd be a 15th level oracle at most.
Dot.
I think if the pcs were somehow to separate Illeosa from the crown, she has enough power lust on her own that she would eventually seek out and become fall victim to some other source of evil if left to her own devices (thus preventing redemption unless you imprisoned her or watched her 24/7). If the players seized the crown before then, that's what I'd do with the remaining adventure path.
Hmmm. Yea you're right, she can't be "redeemed" in that sense.
I guess I was thinking more along the lines, if they were able to get the crown away from her, what would that change?
Her AC and DCs are so high, what about a Wrestling match, pinning her and taking the thing off?
What then?
limp body?
Was she conscious when he grappled her?
What I'm getting at is, does removing the crown from her possession drop her power levels at all?
limp body?
Was she conscious when he grappled her?
What I'm getting at is, does removing the crown from her possession drop her power levels at all?
Well, it will lower her stats significantly in that removing it will also remove the stat bonuses she's gaining from it (its stat profile is on Curse of the Crimson Throne #6- Crown of Fangs p. 64). I wouldn't think it would drop her XP level at all (they probably would have said if it did).
But do whatever works best for your game. If you fear your characters might not stand a chance otherwise, you could rule the shock of separation from it for any significant length of time might give her a few negative levels, or perhaps wrack her with insanity (as per the rules in the GMG).
those so basically all she gets from the fangs is +6 con and +6 cha?
What did this crazy lass do in a few months to gain 12 levels??
I'm thinking a good deal of that has to be essence of gelfling, erm kazavon.
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Hmmm. Yea you're right, she can't be "redeemed" in that sense.
I guess I was thinking more along the lines, if they were able to get the crown away from her, what would that change?
Her AC and DCs are so high, what about a Wrestling match, pinning her and taking the thing off?
What then?
Like what dreaming Psion said I don't think Ileosa is unpleased with the influence of the Crown of Fangs. Given that even the srtist who could only hear it's whispers went mad with the sense of abandonment when the whispers stopped, I think Ileosa will do anything within her power to get the Crown of Fangs back - perhaps even pretending to awake from a possession ("all those horrible things that evil Crown made me do! It was a nightmare, such a long, terrible nightmare... thank you for saving me, worthy heroes of Korvosa!" etc. etc.) so that the PCs will let their guard down, and then at the moment when they are not paying enough attention she'll try to take the crown back to herself and attack them with a vengence.
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Maybe everyone has forgotten that Queen Ileosa sold her soul to Sermignato. She has been possessed by an erinyes with Bardic class levels. She had to willingly accept the possession. There is a whoile contract in the book too. I dont know how much more she had to do to be considered unredeemable. Taking the crown does not cancel her decision to be possessed. Taking the crown does not even lift the influence of Kazavon. Kazavon influenced her way before she ever had the crown. Before she did anything evento the king. She knew exactly what she was getting into when she started to follow Kazavons will. Then, she invited Sermignato into the castle after she had her husband murdered by his own brother. She allowed her to be bound, im sorry, she was not possessed by an erinyes she was bound to a traitor erinyes and that was Ileosa's boon. And the erinyes punishment. Then Ileosa caused the town to be torn apart by the plague. Ileosa herself contracted the Red Mantis Assassins. Kazavon just opened up her ability to act like she really wanted to. He eased her into the things she really wanted to do to become immortal and she is nearly there. Ileosa, not Kazavon wants to sacrifice the entire city of Korvosa to get to this end. And you ask if she is redeemable. There is no way in hell that this woman would be redeemable unless you change the entire purpose of the story and blame everyone but her. She was only helped to become evil, Ileosa fully embraced it.
The crown of fangs is the source of a certain amount of her power, The pact with the devil was done under the influence of kazavon, and so arguably may have a way of voiding the contract.
The idea is, introducing a way to capture the contract and destroy it (both copies) there by dropping her power level, and also how to interrupt her power she receives from kazavon.
What measure of power is that?
If you were able to get her ring off, you know thats +5 saves and +5 deflection gone.
In the write up of the crown it really only states there are some stat bonuses (+6 cha and +6 con IIRC) so if you took the crown off her somehow, would she lose anymore than that?
How much 'power' is SHE really getting from Kazavon, vs, this devil binding.
So that's point number one, because the PC's will be looking for some way to bring her within manageable power levels.
The second question is, IF you removed the Devil Bound from her AND the Kazavon influence, you are left with the Illeosa you always had a petulant selfish child.
Kazavons influence was on her very early, it states in the AP she wouldnt have taken the steps to poison Eodred on her own. That right there is mind control/possession.
Now she starts out neutral evil and for that reason is why it was easier for Kazavon to use her than say Salvator Scream or others. Plus she had the means to recover the fangs and come into direct contact with them. This is mentioned as a sort of "by accident" occurrence that Kazavon was not counting on.
But what if he had been able to get Salvator Scream or Eodred or Neolandus to come down and pick up the fangs?
How 'different' would the spread of kazavons reign really have been?
I know my players, and once they discover the crown thing, they will be after it.
So I'm trying to explore some outcome of that before we get there.
They aren't the "rush into battle with the BBEG" types, and if they were, they would fail their saves and it would be a TPK.
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I think that if neolandus had found the crown he eventually would fight off the power. Ileosa wouldn't have done those things on her own yes, but she had to have thought about it. Remember it is not mind control that Kazavon has. He only can nudge Ileosa to do certain things. The closer that these actions are of Ileosa's own mind the easier it is to get her to want to do them. Remember Salvator scream was only influenced not controlled. You had to be willing to not fight those leading thoughts in her dreams. She is an evil person through and through. I do not mean to offend anybody but think of nazi germany. Most of the people who did those horrible acts of genocide wouldn't have done them if they couldn't get away with it and had the means to do so. The power Ileosa was given made her embrace the evil that was already present in her heart and compound on it exponentially. Thereby her truest nature is shown by Kazavon showing her what is possible. Then she decides to be bound to an erinyes and its all over. But in the end it was all her choice. The crown does not take away Kazavons influence in the least because Ileosa has accepted it full heartlessly and is thoroughly evil because of it. If the bound erinyes is disjointed from her she will still be the same evil wench that she is just without all the power.
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Taking the crown away will not change Kazavons influence besides him not being able to give her the way to continue her reign of evil. Ileosa would be weakened as a mastermind in that respect without Kazavons help. She may not be smart enough to pull off her plans without it. Unless of course the bound erinyes begins to influence her mind too.
Neither salvator or any of the other people Kazavon was already influencing came in direct contact with the fangs. Thats the key, Illeosa wasn't even a target of Kazavons until then. She wandered down and foung them POOF game changer! Now we get to play with this pawn!
SO direct contact and influence go hand in hand.
The Queen wanted Eodred gone, out of the picture, but the poison was kazavon. The queen disliked and wanted the low life riff raff gone, but the plague was kazavon. The queen wanted more power, without earning it. The Devil bound pact was Kazavon.
Eve desired the knowledge of good and evil, but Satan coaxed her into taking the apple. Without Satan, would Eve have eaten the apple? No.
Satan Played on Eves inner desire. That's called temped.
If you are temped to steal, but do not do it, are you guilty of the crime.
If you do steal because someone will kill your child if you don't? Have you been 'controlled' into dong it?
IF you are SO MAD you could kill someone, and then someone else says wait, Ive got this gun in my glove compartment. Who goes to jail for murder?
Bing Bing! you both do. So the 'crime' is half the responsibility (at least) of the entity doing the enabling.
Depending on one's personal religious beliefs, the answer to this is different, but are you guilty of sin/ and or are you evil, If you think about doing something wrong, but never follow through with it?
Impression I've always gotten is that she was always evil to begin with and the fangs just gave her a nudge so to speak.
Right, rotten and evil.
Both my kids are rotten and evil. They steal, fight, lie, genuinely want to hurt each other for amusement. They'll probably be the plague of the city as teen agers, stealing money out of moms wallet and wrecking the family car they stole.
What would their alignment be? Evil. Probably.
They are however unlikely to be raving psychopaths stuffing bodies into dumpsters upon reaching college age.
That would require an entirely different influence, some kind of course altering and or life changing thing for them.
If the fangs never existed, and Old Eodred dies of old age after three weeks of being married to Illeosa, What then? She would never have poisoned Eodred, he died on his own. What abut the plague, without kazavons influence, and not needing to contact the Red Mantis (no need for the poison) the plague thing would likely have never come up.
She's not on a path to try to become immortal, or anything like that.
She's an annoying petty little brat.
Just like my kids, they'll probably be unhappy, mean, selfish adults, not the bane to all society.
Now if they got mixed up with drugs as teenagers, and maybe the wrong kind of boyfriend, and one thing led to another, maybe spent some time on the wrong side of the law, did this and that, the process of committing crimes etc etc grows, you become jaded, commit worse crimes, and so the cycle continues, then they could both turn into rather loathsome people who might actually be seriously dangerous.
But that first taboo needs to be crossed, and then the next and the next. Decide to kill someone and follow through with it, and the sky is the limit when it comes to aspirations of global dominance. But never have the guts to go through with it, and remain the egocentric selfish brat who steals 20s from moms wallet.
does either "version" of the same person have a different 'alignment'?
If my kids act like illeosa does now, does that mean they are destined to genocide?
Take that super evil cleric guy from the Shattered Star AP, he gouged out his own eye and ate it to pledge himself to his new super evil god. YET, IN the AP it specifically talks about redeeming him and returning him to his old god....as if this is a clear possibility?
So where is the difference? This guy pledging himself to a dark god and acting on this gods behalf (Hello Darth Vader with a Pole Axe) is redeemable, but Illeosa isn't because she made a deal with the devil?
I don't see Kazavon as a corruptor of Illeosa but more of an enabler atleast initially.
I think Illeosa is more than a petty little brat, she does have evil, as in genuine evil desires though most likely she doesn't see them all as evil. Illeosa without the influence just doesn't have the self confidence to enact those desires or truely percieve them on a conscious level (immortality) until she's under the influence.
If it were a cartoon I would say Kazavon would by the whispering devil on her shoulder as opposed to a possessing influence. He'd be "You know, you can do -this- you know."
Illeosa "I don't think I can... What if i get caught?"
Kaz "Of course you can, it's what you want, it's what you deserve and I've got your back, with me looking out for you what could go wrong?"
Over time I'm sure the influence does blind her to other possibilities than what Kazavon itself wants, she just becomes a puppet. Remove the crown, remove the influence and at 1st I'd say she felt it was her own personal desires defeated, over time without any PC working towards her redemption I'd say she'd still be evil and might even seek out another enabler type or alliance just to feel that powerful again. Without the crown though, IF a PC worked on it, I admit there may be a chance, no so much for redemption but atleast education of morals, I don't think alone Illeosa can concieve of a "good" path so it'd be a long journey for a PC to convince her, as with any evil villain that hey, good is actually a better way to be.
TL:DR. Without Kazavon's influence Illeosa would still be evil imo but she'd be an evil that could slowly be influenced around.
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So where is the difference? This guy pledging himself to a dark god and acting on this gods behalf (Hello Darth Vader with a Pole Axe) is redeemable, but Illeosa isn't because she made a deal with the devil?
Diffrence is one was driven insane completly by a world shattering event even states so in the Ap and later on is under the affects of an actual full blown curse. Reading through COCT nowhere does it state Illeosa is under a curse or insane.
(Also as an interesting side note looking at the crown of fangs and other artifacts in the artifacts and legends book It states that a person must have at least three of the artifacts before they gain any real form of sentiance and when it does it's primary motivation is to join with the rest of the parts and become whole again. Something Illeosa is not working towards at all.)
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I'm with the others on Ileosa not being manipulated by the Fangs so much as bolstered. She was like someone who entertained revenge fantasies and the only thing holding her back was fear rather than conscience, and then she finds a gun. I wouldn't say she was twisted by Kazavon's influence. She was amplified.
Someone really attractive once said: "Ileosa wasn't manipulated by Kazavon so much as she was snorting powdered Kazavon off the bellies of Grey Maidens." That's just how she roll.
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Here's my take on the situation for redeeming Ileosa:
So in other words, way beyond the scope of most campaigns.
I don't think my last post took my edit in time, incase it doesn't change I'll post the thought here.
That Illeosa has entered into a devil contract is now a catch 22 it seems. Hell now has it's claim on her, even if for whatever reason she did decide to do good she'd still go to hell and well if you're going there anyway you may as well be bad.
If the PC's destroy/anull or somehow steal her soul from Hells claim before Illeosa' turned to good, well that just seems to be denying evil it's just punishment if not actively helping an evil character.
again, the primary goal of the PCs will be to do things to weaken her down to a level where they will not be annihilated. Im just wondering what the actual effects of Illeosa would be if the contract/binding were nullified and the crown removed. because they will try those things to drop her power level.
I think they are less concerned by making her a good person, and might just run her through for making them go through all this effort. For the purpose of roleplaying her, I was trying to figure on what would happen if the PCs took these steps, again, Im sure they care little for her well being, so much as weakening her so they can defeat her.
In the Fluff for the AP, the Fluff contradicts the crunch when it talks about the artifacts etc. In the fluff, it describes Illeosa finding the fangs and kazavons thoughts, actions and intentions, so there is a wee bit more sentience there, hmmm?
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again, the primary goal of the PCs will be to do things to weaken her down to a level where they will not be annihilated. Im just wondering what the actual effects of Illeosa would be if the contract/binding were nullified and the crown removed. because they will try those things to drop her power level.
I think they are less concerned by making her a good person, and might just run her through for making them go through all this effort. For the purpose of roleplaying her, I was trying to figure on what would happen if the PCs took these steps, again, Im sure they care little for her well being, so much as weakening her so they can defeat her.
In the Fluff for the AP, the Fluff contradicts the crunch when it talks about the artifacts etc. In the fluff, it describes Illeosa finding the fangs and kazavons thoughts, actions and intentions, so there is a wee bit more sentience there, hmmm?
Except she does the complete opposite of what the fangs if they have sentience should be telling her to do (ie reunite with the other bits.) Also if the fangs are calling the shots why is the brotherhood of bones so eager to retrieve them?
That's kind of interesting really. 1) the brotherhood can't talk to kazavon right now, so they have an unlead mission and Kazavon doesn't know the exist.
2) I dunno there are a few apparent contradictions from book 1 fluff to book 6 write ups. It's like trying to follow the pot-inspired star wars multiverse.
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Apart from her levels Ileosa has two major power sources: her devil contract and the crown. I think it should be a player option to disable both sources before or while confronting Ileosa.
- In my campaign, I'll be skipping adventure five (Scarwall) because my group doesn't like big dungeon crawls. Instead I'll have the PCs return to Korvosa to deal with a number of other quests. One of those is breaking the infernal contracts.
The PCs learn that Ileosa has made a deal with a powerful devil. The deal was forged inside the Acadamae. The PCs contact the Cerulean Society (thieves' guild), whose knowledge of the Breaching festival serves them well when they enter the Acadamae (a conversion of the Module "Academy of Secrets"). There they encounter the contract devil who possesses one version of the infernal contract. If the PCs succeed in finding Ileosa's version of the contract before they confront her, she will be remarkably weaker.
- Likewise the PCs should be able to remove Ileosa's crown during the fight with her. It shouldn't be easy, but grappling her and tearing the crown off her head could fit perfectly within the Pathfinder rules, so as a DM I would allow it.
As far as redeeming Ileosa, I would make that very hard. Ileosa was manipulative, false and evil to begin with, but her malicious character needed the fangs to gain the strength and self-confidence to seize power in Korvosa. If the PCs were to seperate her from the crown, I would play her like a frustrated 'gollum', who craves to be reunited with the evil artifact. She might be 'tamed', but the evil will always slumber. There's no telling when it would resurface.
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hmm thats a good point.
I tended to run Secrets of the Academae for nearly the same reason you are, except that I'm removing their trip to the cinderlands. The Tribes of the Shoanti instead march on Korvosa and camp as a host outside of korvosa, much int he same way the armies of men and elves camped outside the lonely mountain, in the hobbit. This way, the party has a chance to meet with and learn things from the tribes (in an abbreviated manner) as they pass through their lines on the way to scarwall.
I like the context that illeosa would be like gollum without the ring, That's a good analogy, as gollum was evil before the ring, and simply became amplified because of it.
I think Ileosa really ought to be 'redeemable' in the sense of being turned back into the typical Cheliaxan aristocrat brattish noblewoman/girl she was prior to her possession - not a very nice person ("3e evil" - might have been 'neutral' in 1e!), but probably not genocidal! Of course this would probably take powerful magic, but not necessarily beyond the capabilities of very high level PCs. Going by the backstory in part 1 she never chose to become the vessel of the BBEG, she never committed serious crimes of her own free will (I don't think just thinking "mm, I wish hubby would hurry up and die so I can be Queen!" really counts as a capital offense), and I can definitely see unusually Good PCs wanting to try this.
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I have enjoyed this topic and found the Discussion most helpful. I want to thank Pendagast and other contributors for putting this up here. I found the content helpful for considering my own options when it comes to her fate.