| Bertrand DeGisy |
Hello everybody,
I will soon partecipate in a Pathfinder Campaign as a 10 level human paladin. He is an ex D&D character with very high rolled stats
(the group is a sort of "Justice League", the best of the best...)
STR 18
DEX 15
CON 17
INT 13
WIS 16
CHA 17
For flavour and background reasons, he has a few mandatory characteristics:
-skilled and dedicated swordsman (Weapon focus: longsword)
-elite cavalry (Spirited Charge feat tree)
-bonded mount (heavy warhorse)
-sword and board build (swift lay on hands allowed, even with shield)
-1 flaw (as per "Player Options: Flaws" by Paizo)
Should I walk the TWF path? With a 2-levels fighter dip, I think I could play a well-rounded character:
Pal1 Weapon Focus (racial) - Mounted Combat (regular) - Ride-by attack (flaw)
Ftr1 Power Attack (class)
Ftr2 Spirited Charge (regular) - Improved Shield Bash (class)
Pal2
Pal3 Two weapon fighting
Pal4
Pal5 Shield Slam
Pal6
Pal7 Double Slice (or Step Up)
Pal8
Of course, I would take Shield Master at 11
Will I regret, in the long term, the loss of the capstone feature? Would it be a more "conventional" buld better?
Something like this:
Pal1 Weapon Focus (racial) - Mounted Combat (regular) - Ride-by attack (flaw)
Pal2
Pal3 Spirited Charge
Pal4
Pal5 Power Attack
Pal6
Pal7 Cleave
Pal8
Pal9 ??
Pal10
I look forward for Your advices and thank You all in advance.
| Mysterious Stranger |
I would advise against dipping for a paladin. You not only loose the capstone ability you delay all the other class features including spell casting. The two level dip at 10th level cost you a smite evil, a lay on hands , a 1st level spell, and gaining your 3rd level spells. Next level you gain aura of justice. Considering your party should also be around your level that means the whole party just got +11 damage on every attack and the ability to bypass all damage reduction.
| Bertious |
I'm not sure what resources you are allowed to use but if it is available i would consider Mounted Blade.
| Mysterious Stranger |
Cleave is more of a lower level fighter feat that get traded out at higher levels. At your level probably not all that useful. At this level you are more likely to be facing a smaller number of tougher opponents than a bunch of weak minions. Sunder and Sundering strike work pretty well add improved critical and it works even better. Sunder can shut down a spell casters if you target the spell pouch or divine focus.
For a paladin improved critical is better than keen because of bless weapon. Bless weapon does not stack with a keen weapon but it works with improved critical. Having any threat automatically confirm when you are smiting evil gets pretty obscene.
I would probably go for sunder and improved critical now and pick up sundering strike at 11th level. If you take greater sunder at 13th you could end up destroying both the weapon and armor of your opponent and still damaging him. Target the armor for a sunder get a critical and take out both the armor and weapon and apply any leftover damage to the opponent.
| Kjeldor |
Don't dip into fighter classes. you will find that you underpower yourself on average compared to others. I also would recommend against cleave as for low levels its ok but for higher levels it will only come in handy fighting hordes of undead, atleast my experience it was. The critical tree is also a good tree to follow. I kinda like Vital Strike as well, Allows you to still ride by attack/charge but get off essentially 2 attacks during a standard attack swing. Also as a Paladin see if there are any teamwork feats that might benefit you and someone else. They are worthwhile when used correctly.
| Lemmy |
Fey Foundling is amazing for Paladins. It brings your LoH to a whole new level!
Since you have a Int score of 13, you can also get the extremely good feat: Unsanctioned Knowledge.
Now you get to cast things like Enlarge Person, Invisibility, Haste, Good Hope, Paragon Surge, Divine Power, Blessing of Fervor (great spell, BTW), Freedom of Movement, etc.
There is also Eldritch Heritage, that is particulary awesome for Paladins. The Orc Bloodline being my favorite, but Draconic and Abyssal are also pretty good. Arcane too, for a more casty Paladin.
If you plan to take this feat chain, use the human alternate racial trait that gives you 3 Skill Focus for the price of 1 single feat. This way you get to increase your Perception bonus and whatever else you want.
Fearless Aura is also pretty good
Word of Healing is a decent way to heal your allies in emergency situations! It saved the life of one of my friends' character once!
I personally like Cornugon Smash, because I like having more stuff to do in combat. And high charisma + full BAB means you can Power Attack most of the time and consistently scare the crap out of your enemies! Being a human with 13 int, you should have 4~5 skill ranks per level, so you can afford to invest in Intimidate.
Item creation feats are pretty good for Paladins too, especially Craft Wondrous Items and Craft Magic Arms and Armor.
And I think you can cast if you are using a light shield. The rules are unclear about LoH, but I remember seeing a post were JJ said to simply handwave it and let Paladins use their swift-action LoH even with a shield.
Last but not least, I suggest you switch your Dex score with your Wisdom score. You get a lot more from high Dex than from high Wis. Especially with your already absurdly high saves.
EDIT: Added a few more suggestions.
EDIT2: G*%%~%it! Every time I read this post I find a new typo!
| johnlocke90 |
Fey Foundling is amazing for Paladins. It brings your LoH to a whole new level!
Since you have a Int score of 13, you can also get the extremely good feat: Unsanctioned Knowledge.
Now you get to cast things like Enlarge Person, Invisibility, Haste, Good Hope, Paragon Surge, Divine Power, Blessing of Fervor, etc.Fearless Aura is also pretty good
Word of Healing is a decent way to heal your allies in emergency situations! It saved one of my friends' character once!
I personally like Cornugon Smash, because I like having more stuff to do in combat. And high charisma + full BAB means you can Power Attack most of the time and consistently scare the crap out of your enemies! Being a human with 13 int, you should have 4~5 skill ranks per level, so you can afford to invest in Intimidate.
Item creation feats are pretty good for Paladins too, especially Craft Wondrous Items and Craft Magic Arms and Armor.
And I think you can cast if you are using a light shield. The rules are unclear about LoH, but I remember seeing a post were JJ said to simply handwave it and let Paladins use their swift-action LoH even with a shield.
Nowhere does it say you can cast. In fact, the buckler(A weaker version of the light shield), states that you can cast while there is no such statement on a light shield. You can carry stuff in the same hand as a light shield, but you cannot make the precise movements necessary to cast. In addition, you lose your shield AC bonus when you cast using a buckler.
As far as Lay on Hands, this is JJ suggesting a house rules. The rule book makes it clear you need to touch the target, which requires a free hand.
Unless your DM is willing to make generous houserules for you, I highly recommend using 1 weapon and no shield(unless you want to take a two level dip in alchemist). Otherwise you won't be able to use your litanies or powerful self healing.
Malachi Silverclaw
|
JJ said a paladin wielding a light shield and a one-handed weapon can Lay On Hands by switching his weapon to his shield hand (which can hold, but not use, a weapon), Lay On Hands, then switch the weapon back to the other hand.
This indicates that weapon-switching is either a free action or not an action at all. In order to TWF and LOH at the same time you must avoid using a heavy shield or a weapon in your off hand. You could use a spiked gauntlet in either hand to let you use TWF and LOH simultaneously.
Malachi Silverclaw
|
Here it is!
Switching a held object from one hand to the other doesn't require an action, so the end result is the same whether or not you use the light shield hand to lay on hands or your weapon hand after switching your weapon to the off hand, and then back to your weapon hand.
The fact that allowing you to use your light shield hand to do so without so many fiddly steps is why I'd say it's fine to let it work that way.
Also... lay on hands helps keep the story going by helping to avoid disruptive player death and lets everyone keep playing the game. So it's good to not stack more qualifiers and requirements on it.
| johnlocke90 |
Here it is!
James Jacobs wrote:Switching a held object from one hand to the other doesn't require an action, so the end result is the same whether or not you use the light shield hand to lay on hands or your weapon hand after switching your weapon to the off hand, and then back to your weapon hand.
The fact that allowing you to use your light shield hand to do so without so many fiddly steps is why I'd say it's fine to let it work that way.
Also... lay on hands helps keep the story going by helping to avoid disruptive player death and lets everyone keep playing the game. So it's good to not stack more qualifiers and requirements on it.
Interesting. This has big implications though. For instance, there isn't anything stopping you from holding two weapons in 1 hand(as long as you don't wield), so you could at any point switch weapons from one hand to the other,
This will make my 2 pistol gunslinger much easier.
Malachi Silverclaw
|
Not sure that's the case....
You strap a shield to your forearm and grip it with your hand. A light shield's weight lets you carry other items in that hand, although you cannot use weapons with it.
I don't think that this clause can be extended to any weapon.
I can imagine a knife-thrower having a fistful of daggers, but I'd be wary of tricks like trying to use a single weapon with TWF by switching hands.
| Bertrand DeGisy |
A lot of useful help, indeed!
Fey Foundling is amazing for Paladins. It brings your LoH to a whole new level!
Since you have a Int score of 13, you can also get the extremely good feat: Unsanctioned Knowledge.
Now you get to cast things like Enlarge Person, Invisibility, Haste, Good Hope, Paragon Surge, Divine Power, Blessing of Fervor (great spell, BTW), Freedom of Movement, etc.<snip>
interesting feats, but not in line with the character background.
As I said, I think I will be allowed to LoH even with a shield.
Mounted Blade looks awesome, but in a campaign this long, I will probably face dungeons and other no-mount environement and I already spent 3 feats to be an elite horseman.
Seems wise to drop cleave and go for Vital / Sunders: those could make me useful even versus non-evil opponents.
Any more ideas?
| Lemmy |
A lot of useful help, indeed!
Lemmy wrote:interesting feats, but not in line with the character background.Fey Foundling is amazing for Paladins. It brings your LoH to a whole new level!
Since you have a Int score of 13, you can also get the extremely good feat: Unsanctioned Knowledge.
Now you get to cast things like Enlarge Person, Invisibility, Haste, Good Hope, Paragon Surge, Divine Power, Blessing of Fervor (great spell, BTW), Freedom of Movement, etc.<snip>
I understand,. although, IMO, Unsanctioned Knowledge can be easily refluffed to fit any background. Maybe your order of Paladins emphasize the mythical aspect of divine power a bit more than most? Maybe the monastery were you trained had a great library. And you can always grab Paladinesque spells, such as the amazing Good Hope and Blessing of Fervor.
Personally, I don't care about the offisical fluff of any class, feat or spell in the game, those are just a suggestion, fluff is what I do with the character.
But I see you point, so I'll not insist in the argument.
As I said, I think I will be allowed to LoH even with a shield.
Mounted Blade looks awesome, but in a campaign this long, I will probably face dungeons and other no-mount environement and I already spent 3 feats to be an elite horseman.Seems wise to drop cleave and go for Vital / Sunders: those could make me useful even versus non-evil opponents.
Any more ideas?
Ah, I see. I thought you still hadn't built the character for PF yet. There are lots of great feats for mounted combat. Personally I think Vital Strike is very overrated, and requires a feat investment that Paladins can't afford.
Out of the top of my head, I remember Mounted Combat, of course, as it's the basic feat for mounted builds.
Ride-by-Attack do wonders to increase your mobility. So does Wheeling Charge. Next time the baddies think they'll be safe from your holy wrath if they hide behind a corner, they are in for a big surprise!
Indomitable Mount is amazing to increase your mounts survivability, as its Will save is likely to be the pretty low. (Give it Iron Will and buy the beast a Cloak of Resistance anyway, okay?)
Mounted Skirmisher, is amazing, but only comes into play at 15th level, unless you're a mounted Ranger.
And if you plan to grab Eldritch Heritage and use the human alternate reacial trait to get 3 Skill Focus for 1 feat, you can use one of those on Ride (making Mounted Combat and Indomitable Mount even better!), another one for the Eldritch Heritage prerequisite, and the last one in whatever you want, (maybe Perception? Or Intimidate for Cornugon Smash?), but remember the last Skill Focus comes into play very late, at 16th level!
The problem is that Paladins are pretty feat starved, and mounted combat can be a very feat-intensive style. You can do it, of course, but it'll take a while to take all you want, although you'll already have a solid build by 7th level, so no worries.
BTW, Are you using traits? Because those can add any skill to your list of class skills (with a +1 bonus too) and/or a +1 bonus to any save (not that you need), a +2 to Initiative (always useful, especially at higher levels) or a bonus to concentration checks (also very unnecessary for a Paladin).
But best of all, you can take Magical Knack to increase you caster level by 2! Raising it to Paladin level -1, instead of the usual -3! This is really good. (Especially if if ou also get Unsanctioned Knowledge ^^)
| Bertrand DeGisy |
<many interesting options>
In fact the character comes from AD&D (2nd ed), through 3.0/3.5, so has a quite estabilished history (even if sub optimal, such as in "weapon Focus")
The build (being the dip-solution abandoned) could be:
Pal1 Weapon Focus Longsword(racial) - Mounted Combat (regular) - Ride-by attack (flaw)
Pal2
Pal3 Spirited Charge
Pal4
Pal5 Power Attack (for 2h with longsword, when in need)
Pal6
Pal7 ??
Pal8
Pal9 ??
Pal10
As for traits, I was considering 2 among Armor Expert, Dangerously Curious (although some retcon would be necessary...), Suspicious, Charming and Reactionary.