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Titan Mauler is a sweet barbarian archetype that lets a barbarian use weapons that are not appropriately sized for them.
At second level they get Jotungrip which says the following
At 2nd level, a titan mauler may choose to wield a two-handed melee weapon in one hand with a –2 penalty on attack rolls while doing so. The weapon must be appropriately sized for her, and it is treated as one-handed when determining the effect of Power Attack, Strength bonus to damage, and the like.
This ability replaces uncanny dodge.
Emphasis mine.
Simple, I get it, they take a greatsword and put it in one hand, take a -2 attack penalty, and then maybe throw a shield in the other hand and up the AC.
Then at third level the Titan Mauler gets this little bit of awesomeness
At 3rd level, a titan mauler becomes skilled in the use of massive weapons looted from her titanic foes. The attack roll penalty for using weapons too large for her size is reduced by 1, and this reduction increases by 1 for every three levels beyond 3rd (to a minimum of 0).
This ability replaces trap sense.
Again, emphasis mine.
Sweet, the character gets to pick up that large sized longsword and wield it in two hands and only take a -1 penalty. Why?
These rules taken from the universal weapon rules
Every weapon has a size category. This designation indicates the size of the creature for which the weapon was designed.
A weapon's size category isn't the same as its size as an object. Instead, a weapon's size category is keyed to the size of the intended wielder. In general, a light weapon is an object two size categories smaller than the wielder, a one-handed weapon is an object one size category smaller than the wielder, and a two-handed weapon is an object of the same size category as the wielder.
Inappropriately Sized Weapons: A creature can't make optimum use of a weapon that isn't properly sized for it. A cumulative –2 penalty applies on attack rolls for each size category of difference between the size of its intended wielder and the size of its actual wielder. If the creature isn't proficient with the weapon, a –4 nonproficiency penalty also applies.
The measure of how much effort it takes to use a weapon (whether the weapon is designated as a light, one-handed, or two-handed weapon for a particular wielder) is altered by one step for each size category of difference between the wielder's size and the size of the creature for which the weapon was designed. For example, a Small creature would wield a Medium one-handed weapon as a two-handed weapon. If a weapon's designation would be changed to something other than light, one-handed, or two-handed by this alteration, the creature can't wield the weapon at all.
Again, emphasis mine.
Here's where things start to get muddy for me. If I'm a medium creature wielding a longsword (a one-handed weapon) its object size is medium but its effective size category in terms of wielding a weapon is actually small, correct? At least that's what the first portion of this section makes it sound like. The mixing of the object size and the size category for wielding seems a bit wonky. If I'm a small creature, say a halfling, and I pick up that medium sized longsword, its size is medium, but its effective size category is small. So does the halfling take the - 2 penalty for wielding it anyway, because it was a weapon designed for a medium creature? The bottom part says the weapon type (light, one-handed, etc.) is altered by one step for a weapon that was sized for a different wielder. Which means that the medium longsword (though the size category is actually small) is a two-handed weapon for the halfling. So the halfling is wielding the longsword as a small greatsword, but instead of 1d10 damage they are getting 1d8 damage, because that's what the medium longsword does, and possibly also taking -2 penalty to hit. That's a long way to go, but I'm pretty sure that's how those rules all interact with each other.
Now let's get to the meat and taters of why I'm posting this question.
For a medium sized Titan Mauler at level 3 they can wield a medium greatsword (which is also effective size category medium - which means the halfling couldn't wield it at all) in one hand and take a -2 penalty. She could also wield a large sized longsword as a two-handed weapon, and only take a -1 penalty. The large longsword is effective size category medium, but is altered one step for the type. Can she even pick up a large greatsword and wield it? The sword would be effective category large, and altered one step in type which puts it beyond two-handed for the barbarian, but isn't the intention of titan mauler that they can wield those weapons. If she can wield it, what's the penalty, -3? Can she wield a large sized bastard sword without exotic weapon proficiency? If so, can she wield it in one hand?
Help!? I'm having trouble figuring out how these things all interact with each other.
If I'm a medium creature wielding a longsword (a one-handed weapon) its object size is medium but its effective size category in terms of wielding a weapon is actually small, correct?
A longsword sized for a medium creature is a small object.
If I'm a small creature, say a halfling, and I pick up that medium sized longsword, its size is medium, but its effective size category is small. So does the halfling take the - 2 penalty for wielding it anyway, because it was a weapon designed for a medium creature?
If a halfling uses a longsword sized for a medium creature, it's still a small object, but it's a two-handed weapon for the halfling, and the -2 inappropriate penalty applies.
Size as an object doesn't really matter in most cases.
For a medium sized Titan Mauler at level 3... Can she even pick up a large greatsword and wield it?
No, you cannot use a two-handed weapon sized for a creature larger than you.
isn't the intention of titan mauler that they can wield those weapons.
It was, but it got changed after submission by the developers to the current state.
I read something ages ago (I think the v3.0 to v3.5 rule change) which helped me visualise it, which went something along the lines of imagine a dagger, if it's made for a huge creature, it may be as long as a medium sized longsword, but it's still the same shape as a dagger and is not the same as a longsword. The handle would be much bigger (longer and wider) and the balance would be different.
Now all weapons are on a size scale from Fine Light to Colossal 2-Handed with overlaps so that Medium One Handed is the same size as a Large Light and a Small 2-handed weapon so they can be physically wielded. But because the shape and balance is not appropriate for the sized creature there are penalties. So a halfling called wield an Ogre's dagger with 2 hands but the balance would be wrong and the grip wouldn't be fantastic, likewise the Ogre could grab the Halfling's great axe and use it as a light weapon, but would find the narrow shaft difficult to hold.
I think the biggest weapon a medium size character can wield is a Large Bastard Sword or Dwarven War Axe, these can be wielded one handed if proficient so a large weapon would become a 2-handed weapon. What is less clear is if Jotungrip allows a Bastard sword to be wielded one-handed without the exotic weapon proficiency for a -2 penalty,I would say yes, as it allows a greatsword to be wielded one handed. But it does not translate to reducing the penalty to wielding the large bastard sword as a 2 handed weapon because the weapon is not appropriately sized. But the exotic weapon proficiency would allow it.
I would also be sympathetic to a Titan Mauler taking an exotic weapon proficiency to wield a custom built massive greatsword that did damage as though it were one size larger but was sized for the character (i.e. the handle and weighting was designed for the character)
But, rule of thumb, appropriately sized weapons are best for most situations.
Thanks Grick and Kazaan.
I'm realizing now, then, that the Massive Weapons power of the Titan Mauler isn't really all that beneficial (from a crunch perspective) anyway. Why use a large longsword when you can just use a medium greatsword or greataxe and not worry about the penalty.
I still have a question about a large sized bastard sword though. If the Titan Mauler doesn't have exotic weapon proficiency with the bastard sword, can they still use a large sized b-sword as a two-handed massive weapon? As is, a character without the exotic proficiency can use an appropriately sized b-sword albeit as a two-handed martial weapon. Since a Titan Mauler can normally use a two handed weapon as a one handed weapon, at a -2 penalty, how does that work with the massive weapons ability?
If the Titan Mauler doesn't have exotic weapon proficiency with the bastard sword, can they still use a large sized b-sword as a two-handed massive weapon? As is, a character without the exotic proficiency can use an appropriately sized b-sword albeit as a two-handed martial weapon. Since a Titan Mauler can normally use a two handed weapon as a one handed weapon, at a -2 penalty, how does that work with the massive weapons ability?
Using a two-handed weapon in one hand is part of Jotungrip, which only applies to appropriately sized weapons.
A non-proficient user cannot wield a large bastard sword at all.
A bastard sword is listed as a one handed melee weapon, so can be used one handed, but not proficiently without the feat. So a large bastard sword would be a 2-handed weapon, but the character would get non-proficiency and size penalties applied for a total of -6 To Hit
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isn't the intention of titan mauler that they can wield those weapons.It was, but it got changed after submission by the developers to the current state.
Grick, you've posted multiple times about this "change" after its submission, but I've never seen any evidence anywhere that states or even implies that this rule was changed. There are statements and implications, however, that this was the original wording from the developer who neglected to consider the rules already in place for using oversized weapons. If you have access to information the rest of us don't, can you please enlighten us?
Grick, you've posted multiple times about this "change" after its submission
I can't find it. I was sure Jason has mentioned that the ability got changed between his turnover and publication, but either he never said that or (less likely) it's on the 2nd page of results in the search function, which is broken. All I can find currently is him saying he forgot to address the existing rule, which implies it's all his fault, rather than some nameless faceless editor at paizo who yearns to destroy your hopes and dreams.