I was actually wrong on my calculation too. Increase the bonus by +1. An 8 is only a -1, not a -2 penalty. So it's really not that hard with only a small investment (one trait, one feat, and 10 ranks). The only real heavy investment would be the ranks but with a 12 Intelligence you can have 4 skill points per level so I don't think it's all that much of a problem if you really want to do it.
Masterwork tool for another +2.10 (ranks) + 0 (cha) + 4 (trait) + 6(feat) =20.Anyone can use wands, it's an easy skill check auto passing by level 10 if you try at all.Please explain how a typical level 10 fighter can 'auto-pass' a DC20 UMD check to use a wand of CLW, when 'taking 10' is not useable with UMD.Masterwork tool????
Tell me you're joking!
If you're not, what tool helps you make a UMD check?
The cost for masterwork tools and magical competence items is well defined within the rules. They don't give examples of tools for every skill but it's clearly within the rules as written. Your DM of course might choose otherwise. No idea if masterwork tools for various undefined skills is PFS legal though so YMMV.
I'm just not certain UMD is really worth the investment for a front line fighter. If all the possible sources of post combat healing are unconscious and the fighter really needs to spam wand of CLW then the party is in a bad spot.
If I was going to build a fighter that put attention on UMD, wands of CLW wouldn't be my primary focus. I would consider other things.
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1st: Cruelties offer a saving throw. A FORTITUDE saving throw. You're typically going to be in Melee with creatures with good fort saves.
2nd: Your conductive weapon uses up two of your Cruelties. I'd rather heal myself 6 times a day as a swift action and fight over dealing extra damage 3 times a day. It's a marathon, not a sprint. Also, it requires you have a 8,000g weapon.
3rd: How in the world do you have a DC 23 save for Cruelties at 6th level. The DC is 10 + 1/2 Level (3) + CHA. Assuming a 20 Charisma (unlikely) your save DC is only an 18. Where are you getting that extra +5 for the DC?
4th: You not only lose your immunity to fear and charm, but also the ability to boost your allies saves.
You have to understand the tactical difference between a Paladin and an Antipaladin. An antipaladin is a debuff-god, and the best friend to mages when it comes to offensive tactics. Yes, cruelties a Fortitude saving throw. But at low levels saving throws are swingy. At higher levels you are inflicting a -6 penalty vs fear effects and -2 penalty vs everything else, Intimidate shakens enemies bringing them to -4, Touch of Corruption inflicts xd6 damage and then either kicker Curse sickened, dazed or staggered, frightened, exhaustion, blindness, paralyzed, or stunned, depending on situation and level).
EDIT: In short, the Antipaladin is the guy you want to use to take down hard bosses. He has the HP and AC comparable to a Fighter, enough damage as a martial to mop up mooks no issues, and his abilities crush big bads under a wave of negative levels. At high levels, grabbing a life drinker and death ward will pretty much ensure that you are an absolute monster to your enemies.
How are you inflicting a -6 penalty vs. fear effects? Aura of Despair doesn't stack with Aura of Cowardice.
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I was actually wrong on my calculation too. Increase the bonus by +1. An 8 is only a -1, not a -2 penalty. So it's really not that hard with only a small investment (one trait, one feat, and 10 ranks). The only real heavy investment would be the ranks but with a 12 Intelligence you can have 4 skill points per level so I don't think it's all that much of a problem if you really want to do it.
Fair enough. A human fighter with 12 Int and 8 Cha is not unreasonable.
So where does that leave us? With 4 skill points/level, one quarter of them go on UMD, almost from the start. One of your (likely) two traits from level one. And Skill Focus at level 9.
So, to get a UMD of +19 at 10th level (in order to auto-pass a UMD check to use a wand), your progression from level 1 in UMD, and the % chance to fail to use that wand is:-
1st: +4 (1 rank, -1 Cha, +3 class skill, +1 trait bonus)=75% fail
2nd: +5 (2 ranks)=70% fail
3rd: +6=65% fail
4th: +7=60% fail
5th: +8=55% fail
6th: +9=50% fail
7th: +10=45% fail
8th: +11=40% fail
9th: +15 (9 ranks, -1 Cha, +3 class skill, +1 trait, +3 feat)=20% fail
10th: +19 (10 ranks, -1 Cha, +3 class skill, +1 trait, +6 feat)=0% fail
That's a lot of fail.
One quarter of your skills and one half of your traits for the chance to waste many, many standard actions, wand charges and gold pieces, for nine entire levels, just so your fighter can (at the cost of a feat which could be something like Improved Critical), finally reliably use wands of CLW at 10th level before he retires at 12th.
Nah!
Fairly simple question and discussion, and here's my two copper pieces on the whole matter.
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Chances are, It's better being a super-powered divine spellcasting fighter who beats the crap out of a certain alignment a lot better in exchange for being subject to the GM's whims, regardless of which extremity I'm put in, since any other type of fighter would be garbage.
\endrant
I was originally going to write a comment explaining that it's incorrect to think of one martial class (paladin) as more "powerful" (whatever that means) than another (fighter) and how the two classes are balanced. However, I think the divide goes deeper than that and that I approach the game in a fundamentally different way*.
While he's an unstoppable machine in combat all the moments that I've enjoyed the most have happened in the quiet moments between encounters.
- Hanging dozens of (passive-aggressive) fire safety signs around our stronghold after getting accidentally fire-balled by a careless witch ("PREEASE DO NOT BURN SAMURAI!!!", slash through burning stick figure with katana and samurai helmet).
- Starting a tea shop in a town (Honor in All Teas).
- An extended cut scene between levels where the Barbarian taught the Samurai Toughness and the Samurai taught the Barbarian Iron Will.
- Always naming new mounts Uma (Japanese word for horse) until an exceptionally brave mount post-humoneously earned the right to be remembered by a unique name.
So when I read a thread about how there's no point to playing a certain class part of me thinks that you've missed the point of all this. The paladin is a nice rule set that is a great match for the folklore of King Arthur, the Crusades and some other fun ideas but doesn't have the flexibility to be all things to all people.
GM FIAT aside, Paladins are just outright better than a Fighter, and it questions why I should even play one.
Because I'd get bored playing the same narrowly defined paladin all the time and I can build any number of mechanically effective fighters that allow for a variety of RP concepts.
* I'd never say that you're playing the game wrong. If you're having fun then by definition you are doing it right. I just wanted to explain why I enjoy PF because I think likeminded types are underrepresented on these boards.
How are you inflicting a -6 penalty vs. fear effects? Aura of Despair doesn't stack with Aura of Cowardice.1st: Cruelties offer a saving throw. A FORTITUDE saving throw. You're typically going to be in Melee with creatures with good fort saves.
2nd: Your conductive weapon uses up two of your Cruelties. I'd rather heal myself 6 times a day as a swift action and fight over dealing extra damage 3 times a day. It's a marathon, not a sprint. Also, it requires you have a 8,000g weapon.
3rd: How in the world do you have a DC 23 save for Cruelties at 6th level. The DC is 10 + 1/2 Level (3) + CHA. Assuming a 20 Charisma (unlikely) your save DC is only an 18. Where are you getting that extra +5 for the DC?
4th: You not only lose your immunity to fear and charm, but also the ability to boost your allies saves.
You have to understand the tactical difference between a Paladin and an Antipaladin. An antipaladin is a debuff-god, and the best friend to mages when it comes to offensive tactics. Yes, cruelties a Fortitude saving throw. But at low levels saving throws are swingy. At higher levels you are inflicting a -6 penalty vs fear effects and -2 penalty vs everything else, Intimidate shakens enemies bringing them to -4, Touch of Corruption inflicts xd6 damage and then either kicker Curse sickened, dazed or staggered, frightened, exhaustion, blindness, paralyzed, or stunned, depending on situation and level).
EDIT: In short, the Antipaladin is the guy you want to use to take down hard bosses. He has the HP and AC comparable to a Fighter, enough damage as a martial to mop up mooks no issues, and his abilities crush big bads under a wave of negative levels. At high levels, grabbing a life drinker and death ward will pretty much ensure that you are an absolute monster to your enemies.
Oops, sorry. I just added the -2 on since they were from different abilities. So -4 vs fear, -2 vs everything else, intimidate raises to -6 / -4 respectively. Then when you corrupt them with a curse (-4 to all attacks, saves, checks) it's pretty much time to crush them with a save or die.
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Thanks for catching everyone up on UMD, my internets broke (must have been smited), my reply even if its dated by a few posts.
Charisma 8 (-2) + 10 ranks + 6 Skill Focus +4 Magical Aptitude +4 Trait (becomes class skill and +1 bonus) = +22. Note that he said "if you try at all" not "typical fighter."
You forgot masterwork tool. You can get buy with just the trait. Not bad for all lvl 0-4 spells. I wasn't assuming custom crafting, but even it's even easier with that option (just gold)
On another note:
My demo fighter was 20 pt buy but I didn't include level or item bonuses - it is a rushed build, to show fighters can do multiple things in combat in this case:power attack, combat expertise, whilrlwind attack, spring attack, see through weather like fog, hide in smoke sticks or horn of fog...can use a bow well with 2nd weapon training, have skills which the paladin won't due to chr dependence, and have decent saves. Also be completely open to different builds moving to higher levels.
The paladin is slower and less mobile, worthy trade offs for what they get but this means they will be doing less damage (yay smite) or taking more damage (less ac and/or getting full attacked more) (yay LoH).
So the fighter still wins on skills due to having the option to take a more int and waste a feat in fast learner. Diplo might be a better tier skill than climb and swim but I'm sure the pally will regret having a huge ACP and no able to take more than two skills like perception/swim/UMD/climb/religion/fluff skills.
UMD is totally for out of combat, spring loaded wrist sheaths could help though.
These sound tempting: shield, true strike, invis, silence, remove status effect spells, healing, scorching ray, fly, water breathing, detect magic, dispel, fog cloud, basically any potion and any spell you wished was a potion. What else should a Fighter consider in a wand? The intent is to be self sufficent if needed.
With ioun stones and wayfinders you can get protection from evil all the time.
Clear spindle: Protection from possession and mental control (as protection from evil).4k plus way finder of your choice (vanish sounds cool and not over priced).
So, to get a UMD of +19 at 10th level (in order to auto-pass a UMD check to use a wand), your progression from level 1 in UMD, and the % chance to fail to use that wand is:-
1st: +4 (1 rank, -1 Cha, +3 class skill, +1 trait bonus)=75% fail
2nd: +5 (2 ranks)=70% fail
3rd: +6=65% fail
4th: +7=60% fail
5th: +8=55% fail
6th: +9=50% fail
7th: +10=45% fail
8th: +11=40% fail
9th: +15 (9 ranks, -1 Cha, +3 class skill, +1 trait, +3 feat)=20% fail
10th: +19 (10 ranks, -1 Cha, +3 class skill, +1 trait, +6 feat)=0% failThat's a lot of fail.
That goes for a lot of classes though. UMD autopassing really doesn't come into play until around level 10 anyway so I don't think it's a compelling argument. I think you missed his point. It wasn't that it was a fantastic idea. It was that a fighter could do it if he wanted to without that much of an investment. I also would like to reiterate that any character, fighter or not, that is putting this much effort into UMD is probably going to be using more than just wands of CLW. They will probably consider many other options as well since they have opened up a whole new world of choices.
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That goes for a lot of classes though. UMD autopassing really doesn't come into play until around level 10 anyway so I don't think it's a compelling argument. I think you missed his point. It wasn't that it was a fantastic idea. It was that a fighter could do it if he wanted to without that much of an investment. I also would like to reiterate that any character, fighter or not, that is putting this much effort into UMD is probably going to be using more than just wands of CLW. They will probably consider many other options as well since they have opened up a whole new world of choices.So, to get a UMD of +19 at 10th level (in order to auto-pass a UMD check to use a wand), your progression from level 1 in UMD, and the % chance to fail to use that wand is:-
1st: +4 (1 rank, -1 Cha, +3 class skill, +1 trait bonus)=75% fail
2nd: +5 (2 ranks)=70% fail
3rd: +6=65% fail
4th: +7=60% fail
5th: +8=55% fail
6th: +9=50% fail
7th: +10=45% fail
8th: +11=40% fail
9th: +15 (9 ranks, -1 Cha, +3 class skill, +1 trait, +3 feat)=20% fail
10th: +19 (10 ranks, -1 Cha, +3 class skill, +1 trait, +6 feat)=0% failThat's a lot of fail.
Also out of combat you can take a few tries at it.
Not to be a douche or anything, but the UMD argument kinda makes no sense to me. Paladins spec Charisma-secondary or even Charisma-prime. Other than cross-classing UMD, Fighters have very little to gain from Charisma. Arguably as little as Sorcerers have to gain from Strength. If the Paladin wanted to drop some points into UMD, not only would he be better at it before a Fighter, but he would still be able to use all his paladin spells without using it (so he could can use scrolls and wands of useful spells at low levels and use scrolls and wands of other classes earlier).
Given Paladins and Fighters have the same skill points per level, I'm kind of failing to see how this is a fighter bringing something to the group that the Paladin can't, or can't do better.
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I think this UMD discussion illustrates my point quite well...
Fighter can have some versatility in and out of combat. But they have to invest a lot more than any other class in order to do it.
The system rewards cookie-cutter Fighters who pick the all-boring feats like Weapon Focus/Weapon Specialization much more than it rewards a fighter who wants do something different, which is unfortunate.
That adds up to the fact that Paizo seems to be reluctant to publish feats that give extra options in combat instead of boring numerical numbers, unless they have huge pre-requisites and/or come into play only at very high levels.
Not to be a douche or anything, but the UMD argument kinda makes no sense to me. Paladins spec Charisma-secondary or even Charisma-prime. Other than cross-classing UMD, Fighters have very little to gain from Charisma. Arguably as little as Sorcerers have to gain from Strength. If the Paladin wanted to drop some points into UMD, not only would he be better at it before a Fighter, but he would still be able to use all his paladin spells without using it (so he could can use scrolls and wands of useful spells at low levels and use scrolls and wands of other classes earlier).
Given Paladins and Fighters have the same skill points per level, I'm kind of failing to see how this is a fighter bringing something to the group that the Paladin can't, or can't do better.
well, due to being unable to dump wisdom, a fighter does have better perception. but a ranger or barbarian's is better due to class skill bonus and the points to augment it. but a class skill perception bonus only requires the observant trait from the PFS guide to organized play.
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well, due to being unable to dump wisdom, a fighter does have better perception. but a ranger or barbarian's is better due to class skill bonus and the points to augment it. but a class skill perception bonus only requires the observant trait from the PFS guide to organized play.Not to be a douche or anything, but the UMD argument kinda makes no sense to me. Paladins spec Charisma-secondary or even Charisma-prime. Other than cross-classing UMD, Fighters have very little to gain from Charisma. Arguably as little as Sorcerers have to gain from Strength. If the Paladin wanted to drop some points into UMD, not only would he be better at it before a Fighter, but he would still be able to use all his paladin spells without using it (so he could can use scrolls and wands of useful spells at low levels and use scrolls and wands of other classes earlier).
Given Paladins and Fighters have the same skill points per level, I'm kind of failing to see how this is a fighter bringing something to the group that the Paladin can't, or can't do better.
Commoners have better Perception than fighters and Paladins both. It's stuff like this that confuses me. :P
I think this UMD discussion illustrates my point quite well...
Fighter can have some versatility in and out of combat. But they have to invest a lot more than any other class in order to do it.
The system rewards cookie-cutter Fighters who pick the all-boring feats like Weapon Focus/Weapon Specialization much more than it rewards a fighter who wants do something different, which is unfortunate.
That adds up to the fact that Paizo seems to be reluctant to publish feats that give extra options in combat instead of boring numerical numbers, unless they have huge pre-requisites and/or come into play only at very high levels.
Yeah what's up with that anyway? A lot of feats you find that make combat more interesting that people can do in reality require you to be like 11th level beforehand, or take a stupid number of prerequisite feats. If stringing them along in lots of bogus feat chains was an attempt to make them more appealing to fighters than other classes, epic fail. Better to let Fighters become the masters of arts and actually master multiple combat styles and strategies (a claim I have not seen them actually do by virtue of their bonus feats, since you only get 10 bonus feats over 20 levels instead of class features, most of the feats are either meh or things everyone takes anyway, or require your whole 20 levels of fighter to spec 2 trees).
well, due to being unable to dump wisdom, a fighter does have better perception. but a ranger or barbarian's is better due to class skill bonus and the points to augment it. but a class skill perception bonus only requires the observant trait from the PFS guide to organized play.Commoners have better Perception than fighters and Paladins both. It's stuff like this that confuses me. :P
You know... By this point, we may as well make Perception just a value based on HD instead of a skill. Everyone is gonna max it out anyway...
That or our community overrates Perception a lot. Maybe it's a good skill, but not so amazingly awesome that everyone must max it?
That said... Even if it's not the most powerful skill (UMD probably claims that title), it surely is the most rolled.
If you want to be a Fighter who wants to dabble in casting, then you play a Magus. They get bonus feats, they get their own special resource, unique spells, as well as powerful features to combine with martial capability. That, and they don't have to waste traits or feats to be amazing at UMD.
UMD is going to be garbage to a Fighter, when our skill points are next to 0, we have other (more important) skills to maximize, and any (extra) skill points we do receive are going to other skills that are more important. On top of this, stuff like that is going to be covered by other party members (who are also just as good at doing your job on top of having this other utility).
The skills you're going to be spending points into is really only so you don't slow down the group, and/or get yourself killed. (Climb/Swim, I'm looking at you.) This is even assuming you're not dumping Int, and chances are you will be left to if you're going with a 10-15 point buy, otherwise you're behind on the martial department, the only department you are slightly useful in.
well, due to being unable to dump wisdom, a fighter does have better perception. but a ranger or barbarian's is better due to class skill bonus and the points to augment it. but a class skill perception bonus only requires the observant trait from the PFS guide to organized play.Commoners have better Perception than fighters and Paladins both. It's stuff like this that confuses me. :PYou know... By this point, we may as well make Perception just a value based on HD instead of a skill. Everyone is gonna max it out anyway...
That or our community overrates Perception a lot. Maybe it's a good skill, but not so amazingly awesome that everyone must max it?
That said... Even if it's not the most powerful skill (UMD probably claims that title), it surely is the most rolled.
I think the reason it's so valued is just that. It's the most commonly rolled skill in the game, and not only is it, but it has a variety of uses. A poor Perception can mean ending up like the red coats in this scene. It also has a lot of practical applications (you can taste a potion to identify it without activating it at DC 15 + caster level, which is damn useful when looting goodies). It's also used to find traps. As well as secret passages. It's a fairly passive skill, and investing a bit in it is useful no matter who you are (because a few lucky rolls can save your party).
well, due to being unable to dump wisdom, a fighter does have better perception. but a ranger or barbarian's is better due to class skill bonus and the points to augment it. but a class skill perception bonus only requires the observant trait from the PFS guide to organized play.Commoners have better Perception than fighters and Paladins both. It's stuff like this that confuses me. :PYou know... By this point, we may as well make Perception just a value based on HD instead of a skill. Everyone is gonna max it out anyway...
That or our community overrates Perception a lot. Maybe it's a good skill, but not so amazingly awesome that everyone must max it?
That said... Even if it's not the most powerful skill (UMD probably claims that title), it surely is the most rolled.
I think the reason it's so valued is just that. It's the most commonly rolled skill in the game, and not only is it, but it has a variety of uses. A poor Perception can mean ending up like the red coats in this scene. It also has a lot of practical applications (you can taste a potion to identify it without activating it at DC 15 + caster level, which is damn useful when looting goodies). It's also used to find traps. As well as secret passages. It's a fairly passive skill, and investing a bit in it is useful no matter who you are (because a few lucky rolls can save your party).
Wait, since when was that possible to pull off?
its an old 1e trick but i dunno if thats cannon anymore
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Not to be a douche or anything, but the UMD argument kinda makes no sense to me. Paladins spec Charisma-secondary or even Charisma-prime. Other than cross-classing UMD, Fighters have very little to gain from Charisma. Arguably as little as Sorcerers have to gain from Strength. If the Paladin wanted to drop some points into UMD, not only would he be better at it before a Fighter, but he would still be able to use all his paladin spells without using it (so he could can use scrolls and wands of useful spells at low levels and use scrolls and wands of other classes earlier).
Given Paladins and Fighters have the same skill points per level, I'm kind of failing to see how this is a fighter bringing something to the group that the Paladin can't, or can't do better.
That's because the UMD argument isn't "Fighter brings something unique to the group, fighters can heal!" Read back and you'll see that the source of the argument is much more stupid than that:
"Paladins have spells and Divine Bond!"
"But those have daily limits. Fighters can keep going forever."
"Fighters have a limited resource: HP."
"HP's not limited in the same sense, though, you can heal easily, you don't need to spend a day to recover i-"
"Actually, it's even more limited, because it takes several days to heal instead of just one day like spells!"
"But that's stupid, nobody relies solely on natural healing, don't you have a wand of CLW?"
"Fighters can't use a wand of CLW, but paladins can! Check and mate."
"Why does the fighter need to be the one to use it, every party has someone who can use a CLW wand, this is a team game, it's sill-"
"I've got a better idea, let's argue for fifty posts over whether a fighter can (but in practice won't) build to be able to use a CLW wand!"
The whole thing just comes from a stupid counterargument to a stupid argument. Out of the game's 18 base classes, 9 have CLW on their spell list and 4 more have UMD as a class skill by default (for a total of 13/18) - but apparently unless it's the fighter herself who can use the CLW wand, we're forced to pretend for some reason that nobody can use CLW wands, the group uses nothing but natural healing, and hit points are a more limited resource than things like spells, smites, and Divine Bond with a fixed low number of uses per day.
And then a derail over whether fighters can use UMD started because someone decided "Wait, this unnatural fighter build nobody uses can use wands, therefore fighters in general can all use wands!" was a much better counterargument than "That makes no sense, why are we assuming the fighter's team consists solely of fighters?"
Identifying Potions: In addition to the standard methods of identification, PCs can sample from each container they find to attempt to determine the nature of the liquid inside with a Perception check. The DC of this check is equal to 15 + the spell level of the potion (although this DC might be higher for rare or unusual potions).
Been like this since the first edition of the CRB.
Not to be a douche or anything, but the UMD argument kinda makes no sense to me. Paladins spec Charisma-secondary or even Charisma-prime. Other than cross-classing UMD, Fighters have very little to gain from Charisma. Arguably as little as Sorcerers have to gain from Strength. If the Paladin wanted to drop some points into UMD, not only would he be better at it before a Fighter, but he would still be able to use all his paladin spells without using it (so he could can use scrolls and wands of useful spells at low levels and use scrolls and wands of other classes earlier).
Given Paladins and Fighters have the same skill points per level, I'm kind of failing to see how this is a fighter bringing something to the group that the Paladin can't, or can't do better.
That's because the UMD argument isn't "Fighter brings something unique to the group, fighters can heal!" Read back and you'll see that the source of the argument is much more stupid than that:
"Paladins have spells and Divine Bond!"
"But those have daily limits. Fighters can keep going forever."
"Fighters have a limited resource: HP."
"HP's not limited in the same sense, though, you can heal easily, you don't need to spend a day to recover i-"
"Actually, it's even more limited, because it takes several days to heal instead of just one day like spells!"
"But that's stupid, nobody relies solely on natural healing, don't you have a wand of CLW?"
"Fighters can't use a wand of CLW, but paladins can! Check and mate."
"Why does the fighter need to be the one to use it, every party has someone who can use a CLW wand, this is a team game, it's sill-"
"I've got a better idea, let's argue for fifty posts over whether a fighter can (but in practice won't) build to be able to use a CLW wand!"The whole thing just comes from a stupid counterargument to a stupid argument. Out of the game's 18 base classes, 9 have CLW on their spell list and 4 more have UMD as a class skill by default (for a total of 13/18) - but apparently...
that actually made me chuckle
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its funny that people are arguing that a paladin is better then afighter, they both have strong suits.
a fighter can have the highest ac, full ranged combat feats, and full melee combat feats, all on the same character. that degree of diversity out classes the paladin in most combats. even ones that have evil enemies that they can smite.
a paladin has all the features that were described by the OP BUT cant have ranged and melee efectiveness in combat. they have insane saves and a high ac, but that isnt enough, in my opinion to make a fighter "worthless". so it all comes down to play style and choice. if you know how to make a kick ass fighter, or a paladin, then you know that both have strengths and weaknesses.
the weaknesses of the classes, in my opinion, are:
fighter:
saves
touch ac
paladins:
flexibility
damage (against nonevil targets)
so youre playing a paladin and you fight a flying target, well you had to choose between shield and sword, two handed, or ranged combat. and since most pallys dont choose ranged combat you sit there full defensive, or with lackluster ranged attacks, while your party fights without you.
a fighter in that situation, built based on flexibility would have rapid, and many shot, in adition to what ever feats you decided to use, to deal much more damage to the target.
but a paladin can sit there and heal through tons of damage using layon hands and CLW, something a fighter cannot do.
so they both have there strengths and weaknesses, and that is an important factor to how this game works. if one calss could do it all you wouldnt need a group now would you?
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SideKick, you do know Archer Paladins exist too?
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IMO a paladin is much better at diversity than a fighter. Sure you can grab a bunch of bow feats, but this won't mean you have the ability scores or the items to do it well.
On the other hand, a level 6 Paladin can grab a mundane bow and in two rounds make it a +2 bow. Then if he is fighting evil he can smite evil on it and he is good to go.
Once he level 13 he can make any weapon he picks up a +5 holy weapon
ok so you have a +5 long bow. how much damage will you do to the non evil target? do you have clustered shots? dead eye shot? rapid, many, precise shot? improved precise shot? if a fighter can out THF you, slap on his tower shield sword and out tank you, and out shoot you, then you dont have that diversity you claimed you do. now one target per use of smite evil you will out damage the fighter, but all the other targets he will out damage you. im not saying "OMGWTF FIGHTER IS SO MUCH PWNZORS AND PALLYS SUCK!!!" im not saying that at all. im saying fighters have better flexibility then paladins do.
the paladins strength is in his surviveability through healing and saving throws.
SideKick, you do know Archer Paladins exist too?
if you're going to skim the post, dont reply to it.
How nice of you to assume I skimmed your post.
I merely had nothing else to reply with at the moment.
Honestly if it's just for backup healing and time is not a concern then a single rank of UMD and no charisma penalty and the time to make roll after roll you can try to use the CLW wand for backup healing. Yeah if you roll a 1 you are screwed for the remainder of the day but that's why you have a second wand ;)
I disagreee. In fact one of my characters in a PBP is a lore warden with ranks in UMD. SO it is not like it would never happens.
Certainly, you can build it that way if you go out of your way to. But the point is that most people don't, and most people don't need to. It's not like without UMD, your HP would be a resource more limited than spells/day and would be healed only by natural healing from resting; you're not the only fighter in the world whose HP can be restored. Which makes the whole thing irrelevant to the underlying point: fighters can keep going forever.
our party do not haev a healer and besides Otheres have mentioned already that UMD can be used to other things besides CLW.
I don't mean you need a dedicated healbot, just someone who can use a wand of CLW. So if there's an alchemist, bard, cleric, druid, inquisitor, oracle, paladin, ranger, rogue, sorcerer, summoner, or witch - two-thirds of the base classes in the game - then you're set.
Cross-class UMD just to have a cure-wand only becomes necessary when the entire party consists of barbarians, cavaliers, gunslingers, fighters, monks, and wizards. And even then, non-Lore Warden fighters are going to have fewer skill points than most of those.
Look, my point isn't that fighters can't and shouldn't ever use UMD or anything like that. My point is that fighters don't need to max out UMD in order to avoid constantly running out of HP, which means the whole question of whether fighters can use UMD is completely irrelevant because HP isn't limited anyhow, which means the whole derail is a complete waste of time seriously please stop.
I think the unlimited fighting power of the fighting man is dramatically overrated.
The truth of the the matter is that CR appropriate foes (CR+1 or CR+2 in many cases) tend to hit hard and PC defenses are rarely at the level where they can negate all of that damage. The end result is that Fighters are definitely dependent on consumable resources like spell based and wand based healing unless you've bolted on a healing surge like mechanic.
Granted the cost per charge on a wand of CLW is pretty small so most parties should be effectively at full HPs before and after most encounters but there is a distinct point when the effectiveness of party is reduced vs the average CR appropriate encounter.
A fighter with no buffs is generally able to do well vs CR appropriate foes but if they have inspire courage and haste up they tend to do that much better and the risk to the party goes way down.
The result is that while many (if not most) groups don't experience the problem of the 15 minute adventuring day the ability to go all day without magical support is really compromised unless you weaken the average opposition.
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Wow so no one plays a fighter with any int? Why would you do that? That's like not carrying a ranged weapon because you are not the best at it.
The fighter has complete freedom to be built how you please there is no cookie cutter build since you can do anything and a good number of feats need int 13.
The party can get separated and members can be killed, relying on others 90% of the time is fine but when the bat guano hits the fan and your wizard ally is waiting in line for eternal judgement maybe you want someone who can UMD his teleport scroll - at least have a chance.
The paladin needs charisma or his/her class abilities don't work. To say paladins have the same freedom in builds as a fighter is untrue, if they are being built for the same role the fighter will have more freedom, unless they party is asking for someone to be a face for the party - but they wouldn't likely choose a paladin who has an odd ability to never lie.
Paladins are poster child's for dumping int and wisdom, probably dex too. If you want to compare a arbitrary "common fighter" use the "common paladin" too. While you are at it, we should assume the paladin has fallen :) [smilie face to show sarcasm about the fallen bit]
A fighter can be built to reduce his weaknesses much cheaper (in feat, skills, gold, and hurting his role less) than a paladin. This isn't a ranger or barbarian thread so I won't comment on those statements beyond if you want a pally (party buffer, healer, tank) barb
(charge in and survive style) or ranger (hunting favored enemies) you should play them instead as they are specialized in their role more.
Magical classes seem to be given everything they need to function (Compaire magus/inquisitor to The monk) even the wizard was buffed in HD and opposed schools and still has great spells. So non casters need to cover their butts another way.
I almost always build fighters with at least average intelligence but I rarely have more than at 12 invested in intelligence at 1st level on a fighter.
The truth of the matter is that the 3 physical stats are more important and that low will saves pretty much mean that a low wisdom is a death sentence until cloaks of resistance start showing up. This is kinda a shame because low wisdom fighter are basically a trope onto themselves (See Valeros).
That means that Intelligence is almost always the 5th most important stat for Fighters and in many cases even lower value than Charisma.
In high point buy games that might mean that intelligence is still 10 or even 12 but in 15 point games it's really difficult to justify a 13 int fighter when doing so either reduces your ranged (or melee) ability or opens you up to will saves.
And yet I see a lot of people assuming the fighter will have 13 int 19 dex and 20 strength.I almost always build fighters with at least average intelligence but I rarely have more than at 12 invested in intelligence at 1st level on a fighter.
The truth of the matter is that the 3 physical stats are more important and that low will saves pretty much mean that a low wisdom is a death sentence until cloaks of resistance start showing up. This is kinda a shame because low wisdom fighter are basically a trope onto themselves (See Valeros).
That means that Intelligence is almost always the 5th most important stat for Fighters and in many cases even lower value than Charisma.
In high point buy games that might mean that intelligence is still 10 or even 12 but in 15 point games it's really difficult to justify a 13 int fighter when doing so either reduces your ranged (or melee) ability or opens you up to will saves.
I never make those assumptions particularly online. Basically I assume either an optimized 15 point array or even better an elite array because so much of the design math is pretty much built around the elite array assumptions.
Yeah you can get by with an average strength archer build or a low dexterity THF + thrown build but I think the default assumption should be a switch hitting build.
I think the reason it's so valued is just that. It's the most commonly rolled skill in the game, and not only is it, but it has a variety of uses. A poor Perception can mean ending up like the red coats in this scene. It also has a lot of practical applications (you can taste a potion to identify it without activating it at DC 15 + caster level, which is damn useful when looting goodies). It's also used to find traps. As well as secret passages. It's a fairly passive skill, and investing a bit in it is useful no matter who you are (because a few lucky rolls can save your party).You know... By this point, we may as well make Perception just a value based on HD instead of a skill. Everyone is gonna max it out anyway...
That or our community overrates Perception a lot. Maybe it's a good skill, but not so amazingly awesome that everyone must max it?
That said... Even if it's not the most powerful skill (UMD probably claims that title), it surely is the most rolled.
I know, I know... It just that right now I feel like most (if not all) character have one less skill rank per level. I'm not against everyone investing in perception, I just wish it was such an obvious choice...
Well, at least it doesn't take a feat or anything, nearly everyone can spare a skill point or two.
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I haven't read anything beyond the first post because I know I'll just get mad if I do. So how about this: The reason to play a fighter is...
Because I wanted to play a fighter.
I shouldn't have to justify it any more than that.
A paladin with his weapon bond going is about statistically equal to a fighter. at higher levels, he can supplement this with Divine Favor and similar spells if need be, and he can have it going for every single encounter.
==Aelryinth
The real selling point of the paladin class are his powerful defensive habilities, against a neutral enemy the paladin would have that advantage against the fighter.
But I doubt it to be true in regards to the offensive side. But without actual number is hard to make a serious conversation, would you do a 14 level build to compare against a 14 elvel fighter?
The problem here is the level you're declaring.
At level 14, the paladin can have a weapon bond going in every non-essential fight, plus probably a spell or two. That's likely going to swing things his way.
The key things are the abilities at lower levels, i.e. the levels most people play at. Statistically, they will have identical weapons, except the paladin can buff his higher as needed, or add special purpose powers on demand. I mean, at level 14, the paladin can add BRILLIANT to his weapon at will. Gawd help the armor wearing non-undead bad guy at that point!
A second way to look at it is the paladin can afford to put special things on his main weapon, like Ghost Touch and wounding, and then buff it up equal to the Fighter's sword on demand. If he gets Greater Magic weapon, he can do this all day. If the sword is adamantine, then all he has to worry about is DR that he can autopass on demand with spells or smites.
Stat wise, the two are going to basically be identical. The only difference is the fighter will likely emphasize Wisdom to shore up his will save, and dump Cha. The paladin will likely dump Wis as unneeded, and shore up Cha to get a bonus to ALL saves (and he has a good Will save, anyways).
I did a full breakdown on what Paladins get vs Fighter by level, assuming similar stats and builds. Level by level, it really does start looking kind of ugly. The fighter basically has to rely on magic items and probably UMD to match any kind of the versatility that Paladins get, and their defenses.
==Aelryinth